Micro BR-80

[64Guitars]

So, a few questions about the built in rhythms............

1) if I goto rhythm in MTR mode, I have to press 'stop' before I can change the rhythm preset or the tempo - is there a way around this. I like to get an idea, find a beat & adjust the tempo. To press stop to make any changes is a pain in the ass!

Apparently, the original Micro BR can do that. But none of the other BR models allow you to change the rhythm while it's playing. You have to press Stop.

2) there are rhythm loops in the e-band menu - are these the same as some of the patterns that show in the MTR  rhythm area, or different?

I believe they're different. The patterns in MTR mode are stored in internal memory. The rhythms in eBand mode are stored on the memory card in the \ROLAND\JS\PRESET\drum folder.

3) does anyone have a list of the rhythm patches, in the same way there is a list of the guitar patches - or do I have to keep looking at all 300ish of them to remember where they are :-(

The patterns for MTR mode are listed on pages 15-17 of this document:

http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/om.cfm?PRODUCT=BR%2D80&iRcId=62121934&dsp=1

Unfortunately, it doesn't show the corresponding pattern numbers. But you could print the list and write the starting number of each pattern type in the left column.

For example, here's a list I made of the Micro BR's preset patterns. The first column is the pattern number of the "Intro" pattern in each group. Just add 1 for Verse 1, 2 for Fill 1, 3 for Verse 2, etc.

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=381.0;attach=249

The BR-80 has more preset patterns than the Micro BR so this list doesn't correspond to the BR-80's preset patterns. You'll have to make your own

[Tony W]

Obviously, the level is dependent on the REC LEVEL control (INPUT LEVEL on the Micro BR) on the side of the BR. How did you ensure that both were set to the same recording level? And what setting did you use for the Micro BR's Input Sensitivity. It should be at 0 (unity gain) for a fair comparison. Anything higher is boosting the Line In signal.

Sorry, I assumed the test was obvious as well, I created a new song, and left all the levels default, including the recording volume wheel on the right side of the MBR turned up. This means 0db sens on the Line In on the MBR.

No matter how you slice it, there's a significant signal difference between the MBR and the BR-80 on the LINE IN. Is it unworkable? That falls between a no and a maybe, depending on what device you're using for the Line input on the BR-80.

I wouldn't run the keyboard output, nor my Line 6 POD as hot into an amp as I have to on the BR-80. NEVER. As a matter of fact, the POD would be clipping about 70% of the time.

If it's really intriguing, I can take both the MBR and BR-80 to my test bench at work, and inject a 1khz tone with a signal generator, and get some highly exact results. Perhaps I should do this, because Mike pointed out that what he heard through the cans while recording wasn't the same as when he was mastering. That still has me intrigued.

[simont]

So, a few questions about the built in rhythms............

1) if I goto rhythm in MTR mode, I have to press 'stop' before I can change the rhythm preset or the tempo - is there a way around this. I like to get an idea, find a beat & adjust the tempo. To press stop to make any changes is a pain in the ass!

As you are wanting to change the tempo I presume you are not listening to tracks already recorded.
In that case press rhythm once to enter rhythm mode and press rhythm again to start the preset playing. You can then scroll through the presets.

Unfortunately you cannot change the tempo while checking presets.

EDIT: You can  change the tempo while scrolling through the presets.
Also noticed you can change the tempo in the level meter screen while in MTR playback/record..... not that you'd want to 

[Oldrottenhead]

i eating this thread up thanks for all the feedback and input guys.

[newi123]

thanks for the help guys - pressing 'rhythm' then 'rhythm' again in MTR mode is exactly what I wanted - being able to audition presets and tempo before recording! I was pressing play to play the pattern......... doh!

Couple more questions from playing around today:

1) Input sensitivity seems a bit random - anyone else notice this on theirs? What I mean is that particularly with the internal guitar effects I seems to have the levels way below where I think they should be, or else there is digital distortion on playback.

2) When v=creating my own presets how do I switch between guitar / guitar to bass / mic prests etc - so I am currently going to COSM, user presets, enter to get the edit screen and it gives me the default path for electric guitar effects - but I can't find out how to change to the preset path for other uses........... Am I being really stupid here (likely!), or do I need to create for example a guitar to bass preset by amending one of the guitar to bass factory presets?

& BTW - tried as an audio interface briefly with my modest netbook running reaper and works really well - also hugely cool that you can record audio coming OUT of the pc via the usb connection

cheers

[64Guitars]

1) Input sensitivity seems a bit random - anyone else notice this on theirs? What I mean is that particularly with the internal guitar effects I seems to have the levels way below where I think they should be, or else there is digital distortion on playback.

The purpose of the Input Sensitivity control is to ensure that the signal the BR sees at the start of its signal path is the same level regardless of the input sound source or its settings. That means that any time you change the input sound source, you have to reset the Input Sensitivity. For example, lets say you've selected the bridge pickup on your electric guitar and set the input sensitivity accordingly. Later, you decide it will sound better with both pickups. Chances are that the output level of your guitar is higher with both pickups selected than it is with just one, so you must reset the input sensitivity or you will get clipping. Because the input sensitivity control is at the start of the signal path, it affects everything after it. So you may want to re-adjust your effects settings, and you should definitely re-adjust your recording level whenever you change the input sensitivity.

The correct way to adjust the input sensitivity with a guitar, for example, is to play the guitar the loudest that you plan to play it when recording and watch the display. Increase the input sensitivity until "PEAK" flashes in the top-left of the display occasionally. Then back off the input sensitivity very slightly until "PEAK" no longer flashes. The objective is to get the highest input signal possible without making the PEAK indicator light. When the PEAK indicator lights, the signal will be clipped and you'll hear it as distortion in your recording.

2) When v=creating my own presets how do I switch between guitar / guitar to bass / mic prests etc - so I am currently going to COSM, user presets, enter to get the edit screen and it gives me the default path for electric guitar effects - but I can't find out how to change to the preset path for other uses........... Am I being really stupid here (likely!), or do I need to create for example a guitar to bass preset by amending one of the guitar to bass factory presets?

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but I have a hunch that you're asking how to change the insert effect algorithm. The answer is that you can't. What you have to do instead is select a preset patch that uses the algorithm you want. You can then change the settings of that patch to your liking and write it to any User or Song patch location. The preset patch, of course, will not be changed because it is read-only.

This applies to all BRs, by the way, not just the BR-80. There has never been a way to change the insert effect algorithm directly.

[newi123]

Thanks 64 guitars - that's exact;y what I meant about the algorithms................

With regard to the input sensitivity though - for some of the internal guitar effects I am nowhere near peak showing on the track, but still getting distortion on playback. I need to have the bar showing about 40 / 50% to get clean playback. I don't have this issue using the tech 21 for the guitar sound where the signal isn't processed internally after the input jack.

It seems like the input sensitivity only relates to the signal going into the jack - not the then processed signal going into the recorder? So for internal guitar effects the input at the jack is good - then bumped up significantly by the internal processing so it is too hot going into the recorder?

Would be much more useful to measure the sensitivity hitting the front end of the recorder to get the hottest level possible without distortion.............

 

[cuthbert]

I decided to take a look at the default signal paths going into the BR-80 and Micro BR, using the same stereo WAV file as a source in Audition, record it in each recorder, export the recorded file using BR Wave Converter and then import each file to see what if any differences might exist between the two recorders.

What I found was a little surprising.

First, a quick note about default effects after creating a new song on the BR-80 and Micro BR. Each recorder has a default effect on for the input, although the BR-80 completely bypasses the effects chain from the line input (as noted in prior posts in this thread). The Micro BR defaults LN>P01:Flat for the line input; the BR-80 depends on which style you choose for the song - I chose No Category, and the default was Stereo: Tight EQ (again, it is not used for line input). To eliminate effects as a factor, I turned off the effects on both recorders before recording.


Source:
My source WAV file was one of my recent songs that had an absolute peak of 0db (I applied a limiter effect to the WAV, specifying that no peaks exceeded 0db). This file was opened in Adobe Audition CS 5.5, and I took the line output from my audio card (M-Audio Audiophile 2496) and fed it into the input of the BR-80 and then the Micro BR. Gain on the original WAV file was not adjusted between recordings.

BR-80 Rec Settings:
Since you can only get 100% line level with the Rec Level dial turned down to minimum (presumably zero), there is no other user control on the BR-80 to change gain, except to mix in the stereo microphones by turning the Rec Level dial up past zero - I left the Rec Level at zero to get 100% line level without any microphone mixed in. The sensitivity controls on the BR-80 are only applied to the internal microphones or the 1/4 inch guitar input, but it was set to 0db. COSM effects were switched off.

Micro BR Settings:
Rec Level was dialed up to maximum (presumably 100%), and input sensitivity for the line input was 0 db. Effects were switched off.


Recordings:
I first recorded the song on the BR-80 on tracks 1 & 2, watching the signal levels while monitoring on headphones connected to the recorder. No clipping was encountered.

I then recorded the song on the Micro BR on tracks 1 & 2, watching the levels while monitoring on the same headphones connected to the recorder. It was much louder, and the Over indicator lit up several times.

I then used the BR Wave Converter v. 3.10 to export each recording as a stereo WAV file, and imported both files into Audition. Here's how each track waveform was drawn in multitrack mode - the original WAV is shown at the top, BR-80 WAV is below it, and Micro BR WAV is at the bottom:



As you can see, the original waveform and that of the BR-80 look very similar, while the Micro BR waveform has much more gain and is visibly clipped.

I then opened each waveform and zoomed in to the same interval in time (from 0 to about 18 sec.) where in the original file the signal peaked at 0 db, and compared the BR-80 and Micro BR waveforms at the same time and zoom level.

Original WAV:


Note: 0 db peak @ 17 sec. Download and view at 100% for best representation.

BR-80


Note: -2 db peak @ 17 sec.  Download and view at 100% for best representation.

Micro BR


Note: clipped at 0 db @ 17 sec, and in a lot of other places, too. Download and view at 100% for best representation.

Conclusions:
The BR-80 recorded about -2 db below the line output source audio level. While not a perfect level match, it's fairly close, and the odds of clipping are nil. The only way to increase the gain is to increase the output level at the source, but I did not do that as part of this experiment.

The Micro BR clipped the signal at 0 db, and most of the time the levels appeared to have gone well over that level. To decrease the gain, you can turn down the sensitivity or the Rec Level on the recorder or the output level at the source, but I did not do that as part of this experiment.

On the whole, I'd say both recorders show predictable line level input behaviors: the BR-80 is -2 db lower than the source output, and the Micro BR is several db higher (how much more is not known) than the source output.

Not sure which of these two behaviors is more desirable, but I'm tending toward the BR-80's at the moment...  

[simont]

Great work Cuthbert !
If its all still set up it might be worth setting the MBR to −10 dBV and seeing what the recorded level is like.

Oh yeah...which song is it? 

[64Guitars]

With regard to the input sensitivity though - for some of the internal guitar effects I am nowhere near peak showing on the track, but still getting distortion on playback.

Then your recording level is too high. Adjust it with the REC LEVEL control on the side of the BR.

With any recorder, it's important to set your levels at the various points in the signal path in the order in which the signal flows because every setting before any point in the signal path will affect the signal after that point.

The signal path in the BR-80 for MTR mode with the GUITAR/MIC input goes like this:

GUITAR/MIC
input

---->

Input
Sensitivity

---->

Insert
Effects

---->

REC
LEVEL

---->

Record
Track

---->

Volume

---->

Phones /
Line Out

So first you must set your guitar as desired (pickups, volume and tone controls). Then you adjust the Input Sensitivity as I described earlier in this topic. Then you set the insert effects as desired. And, finally, you set the REC LEVEL control so that the top segments of the "IN" level meter seldom, if ever, light. If the top segent is lighting frequently, you'll get a lot of clipping distortion. If you reduce the REC LEVEL control so that the top segment seldom, if ever, lights, your recording will be clean.

Again, let me stress that the order is critical. If you set your REC LEVEL perfectly, then change your Insert Effects settings, or the Input Sensitivity, or your guitar's settings, then you must set the REC LEVEL again because the signal level at that point will have changed due to the changes you made earlier in the signal path.

The Volume setting doesn't affect your recordings because it comes after the record track. So it only affects what you hear in the headphones or from the Line Out.