Micro BR-80

[cuthbert]

Great work Cuthbert !
If its all still set up it might be worth setting the MBR to −10 dBV and seeing what the recorded level is like.

Oh yeah...which song is it? 

Thanks, Simon!

Both recorders have a nominal input level on the line-in jack of -10 dBu. The BR-80's input impedance is 10 kΩ, and the Micro BR's is 16 kΩ - not sure if that's a significant factor.

The song is 'Trifle with Two'. 

cheers,
cuthbert

[newi123]

Thanks 64

Kind of knew that the level was too hot - but was just making a couple of observations:

1) I get digital distortion on playback even when the rec level is way off showing 'peak' - to avoid unwanted distortion the level needs to peak to 2/3 approx of the 'in' bar (interestingly this is also where the rhythm track seems to sit on playback). So for input sensitivity set at 0db and showing a peak of around -20 on the input sensitivity screen, I'm down at around 40% on the rec level. And this isn't a guitar with hot pickups.

2) purely from a user point of view it would be much nicer to have the nice full screen bars for input sensitivity instead relating to the signal going into the recorder - just like a DAW. That way the levels on this screen would be much more use and could be accurately set instead of having to set the record levels purely by ear.

 

[64Guitars]

BR-80 Rec Settings:
Since you can only get 100% line level with the Rec Level dial turned down to minimum (presumably zero), there is no other user control on the BR-80 to change gain, except to mix in the stereo microphones by turning the Rec Level dial up past zero - I left the Rec Level at zero to get 100% line level without any microphone mixed in.

That's the key factor which I had completely forgotten. The BR-80's recording level is not affected by the REC LEVEL control when recording from Line In. That explains the difference. The BR-80 records from Line In at unity gain, meaning the recorded signal is neither amplified nor attenuated. But the Micro BR's recording level is controlled by the INPUT LEVEL control which will either attenuate or amplify the signal from Line In according to the position of the INPUT LEVEL dial. If you could set the Micro BR's INPUT LEVEL control precisely to unity gain (somewhere in the middle), then Line In recordings on the Micro BR should produce exactly the same level as the BR-80.

Micro BR Settings:
Rec Level was dialed up to maximum (presumably 100%)

With the Micro BR's INPUT LEVEL at maximum, the signal is being amplified quite a bit. So it's not surprising that it was much higher than the source signal and clipped.


I can understand Roland's reason for designing the BR-80 this way. Line level is an industry standard. It produces a fixed level with a peak amplitude of 0.447 volts (in consumer audio devices only. Pro audio has a different standard for line levels). In theory, there's no need for the user to adjust recording levels since Roland simply designed the BR-80 so that an input peak of 0.447 volts produces a recorded signal corresponding to 0dB on the level meter (the maximum you can record without getting clipping). So you get perfect recording levels every time...   in theory.

Unfortunately, in practice, the output level from a device's Line Out might not come anywhere close to peaking for a number of reasons. Take a typical electronic keyboard instrument, for example, with velocity-sensitive keys (as most have nowadays). The Line Out signal can only peak when you strike a key with maximum force. Since, you'll normally be playing more gently, the signal from Line Out may be quite weak. The same goes for electronic drums with velocity-sensitive pads, or a guitar plugged into a multi-effects unit. The signal level depends on how hard you strike the drum pads or guitar strings. And, since line level is fixed by definition, you often can't do anything to compensate for the weak signal from the device. Although, some devices (my Yamaha keyboard, for example) have both a fixed line out and a variable output. And some devices have only a variable output because they don't follow the standard exactly. With a variable output, you may be able to boost the signal high enough to get a good recording level on the BR-80.

So, although a user-adjustable recording level on Line In is not required in theory, I think it should have been included in the BR-80 for practical reasons. You just can't depend on getting adequate signal levels from all equipment in the real world.

Still, I'm sure that the BR-80 can make good recordings from Line In in most cases. In situations where the output level from the equipment is too low and it can't be boosted in the equipment, a mixer or some other amplifying device may be needed between the equipment and the BR to boost the signal. For Micro BR users who've upgraded to a BR-80 and kept their Micro BR, you could always use the Micro BR to boost the signal. For example, connect the Line Out from your keyboard or whatever to the Line In of the Micro BR, and the Line Out from the Micro BR to the Line In of the BR-80. Now you can use the Micro BR's INPUT LEVEL and VOLUME controls to adjust the BR-80's recording level.

[Tony W]

^
That's exactly why I wasn't a fan of dropping the ability to select inputs, and cutting the Line in out of the signal chain.

I'm not sure what it's really called, but I call it blossoming when I play softly to harder on whatever device, be it the GR-20, the keyboard, or even the POD. You have to pound or drive the hell out of the input device in order to get the dynamics properly recorded.

[cuthbert]

Great post, thanks 64G.

If you could set the Micro BR's INPUT LEVEL control precisely to unity gain (somewhere in the middle), then Line In recordings on the Micro BR should produce exactly the same level as the BR-80.

And that is sort of the rub with the Micro BR's handling of line input...it's easy to clip and the pot control is radial, so it's harder to find that sweet spot, and the finally level segments just aren't very precise. So it's a bit of a balancing act to get maximum signal without clipping.

In this respect, even though the BR-80 is not very flexible regarding line input level, it does seem to be more predictable. If it perfectly matched the output at unity gain, that would be better.

But I do agree that more line input level control on the BR-80 would be the best option overall. I'm off to file another feature request/bug with our friends at Roland. 

[64Guitars]

Roland US has released two more Workshop booklets for the BR-80.

Book 1 - "Getting to Know the BR-80"
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/BR80WS01.pdf

Book 2 - "Jam"  (covers eBand mode)
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/BR80WS02.pdf

Book 3 - "Record"  (covers Live Rec mode)
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/BR80WS03.pdf

[Bossmgk]

Hi guys ! Happy to find you !
I just bout  br 80 over micro br . I used it for live playing! Reason to upgrade was that it supposed to play my tracks together with set effect patch that I choose! I imported all my mp3 track to br 80 in e-band folder, and try to set  effects to song-patches ! But it can't go to "song patch" writing mode. Only to user mode! But I want when select the song to come with the guitar effect that match .

PLEASE HELP if there is some way to do it right !

[Bossmgk]

Roland US has released two more Workshop booklets for the BR-80.

Book 1 - "Getting to Know the BR-80"
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/BR80WS01.pdf

Book 2 - "Jam"  (covers eBand mode)
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/BR80WS02.pdf

Book 3 - "Record"  (covers Live Rec mode)
http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/BR80WS03.pdf

Hi !
Update to may last post! I try step by step to folow instruction ot Book 2 - "Jam" to set song-patch , but when come to choose "S" on the effects "patch sinc" , only can see "p" and "u". What wrong I do?

[64Guitars]

Update to may last post! I try step by step to folow instruction ot Book 2 - "Jam" to set song-patch , but when come to choose "S" on the effects "patch sinc" , only can see "p" and "u". What wrong I do?

I don't have a BR-80 so I might be wrong, but I think the "P", "U", and "S" refer to the patch banks in MTR mode. Initially, there are no songs in MTR mode so there is no Song patch bank. Follow the directions on page 57 to create a new song. Then switch back to eBand mode and see if the "S" patch bank is available.

[Bossmgk]

Thanks a lot ! Nice to have you here 

Now I have another issue : Can't find way to change tempo while playing rhythm track . It was easy on micro br .