Songcrafters.org

For the past two weeks, the admin team has been discussing the philosophy and direction we want for Songcrafters, and how we can reorganize the boards to clarify and emphasize that philosophy/direction. Before we make any changes, we thought we'd present our ideas here and get some feedback.

This site started as a support group primarily for owners of the Boss Micro BR. I believe that Roland's design and marketing has always been targeted at the D.I.Y. bedroom guitarist who wants to create elaborate, multitrack recordings himself. The internet makes it possible to include other musicians as well without ever having to meet physically. So we believe that the heart and soul of Songcrafters should be about music performed entirely by our members using multitrack technology such as the Boss BR series of multitrack recorders. This is the direction we see for Songcrafters and the philosophy we will be encouraging.

Having said that, we realise that there are still a few members who shy away from performing all of the tracks in their songs themselves. Instead, they use backing tracks, midi files, loops, etc. While we don't want to encourage the use of these substitutes for member performances, we will continue to allow them. However, we don't want them posted in the same boards as the member-performed recordings. There are also some members who post recordings of their local band. That's great, but unless all of the people in the band are members of Songcrafters, we don't want those posts in the same board as the member-performed recordings. Finally, some members collaborate over the internet with musicians who are not members of Songcrafters. Again, we don't want those posts mixed with the member-performed posts.

So here's what we propose to make all of this possible without segregating everybody into a lot of separate boards.

1) We create a General board in Post Your Work. Members can post anything they like here as long as it's legal and is performed at least in part by the member. So you can use backing tracks, midi files, loops, etc. and post your finished recording here. But anything you use in your recording has to be legal. There are a lot of backing tracks, midi files, and loops on the web which shouldn't be there because they are protected by copyright. Just because you found a great backing track at backingtracks.com doesn't mean that it's legal for you to repost it. I recently had a look at that site and found many files that are clearly illegal. Those files are going to get that site's owners into trouble. They've already had legal trouble regarding songs by Joe Satriani which were posted illegally on their site. We don't want that kind of trouble here at Songcrafters, so you must ensure that any files you use and repost here are legal.

And, as I said, you must perform at least part of your song yourself. You may think that your friend's band is great. But unless you're a member of that band, we don't want you to post their music here. Only post music that's your own or that you played a significant part in. Your friends can always join Songcrafters and post their own songs.

If you are a member of a local band, you can record your rehearsals, jam sessions, or gigs and post them here. And if you have collaborated with musicians who are not members of Songcrafters, you can post those recordings here too. You can even post recordings you've made entirely yourself here if you choose to. However, there will be separate boards available for member-performed recordings and we'd encourage you to post in those boards instead. But it's your choice.

The idea of this board is that all kinds of recordings can be posted here. So it will get a lot more attention than the Backing Track Jams board currently gets.

2) All current posts in the Backing Track Jams board will be moved to the new General board and the Backing Track Jams board will be eliminated.

3) The Collaborations board will be renamed to Work in Progress. As the name suggests, this board will be for anything that's not complete. This could include unfinished recordings which you'd like other members to contribute to (collaborations). It can include song lyrics, because lyrics are just a song which has not yet had the music added. It can also include early mixes of songs that you're working on which are not yet complete.

4) All current posts in the Lyrics board will be moved to the Work in Progress board and the Lyrics board will be eliminated.

5) The Original Songs and Cover Songs boards will remain, but we will insist that everything posted in these boards is entirely member-performed. The only exception will be the drum track. Roland includes a drum machine in most of their recorders because they realise that the average bedroom guitarist would otherwise have no way to include drums in his recordings. It would be foolish not to allow our members to use these drum machines. Also, we don't have a lot of drummer members we can call on to collaborate with us, so it's reasonable to allow our members to create their drum tracks any way they can. That can mean a drum machine, loops, midi files, etc. But this only applies to the drum track. Everything else, including bass guitar, vocals, keyboards, etc. must be performed by yourself or another Songcrafters member. Any existing posts in Original Songs or Cover Songs which do not meet these requirements will be moved to the General board.

6) The current posts in the Songcrafter Tributes board will be moved to the Cover Songs board and that board will be eliminated. We love Songcrafter tributes and want to encourage more of them, but we don't think a separate board is necessary. I'll continue to add any future Songcrafter tributes to the Tribute Fest jukebox, but they can be posted in Cover Songs.


So, the new structure of the Post Your Work category would look like this:

I'm not yet sure if Original Songs and Cover Songs should be child boards, as shown, or separate boards on their own. But, either way, we've gone from 6 boards down to just 4. I think that's much simpler and spreads out the activity more evenly.

We'd appreciate some feedback on this.  And if you have any questions, please ask.

I agree with the administration's desire to condense the site to a small degree, and to clarify song authorship makes a lot of sense to me.

The only thing I would hope remains constant is some sort of tag that is labeled "Collaboration". I think it would be a bad idea to discard our shining beacon of invitation. True, there is not always a healthy amount of activity visibly, but behind the scenes it works wonders. "Work In Progress" is an entirely different animal.

Thanks,

Mark

Well thought-out and well explained. It feels like this direction has more or less happened organically anyway, so it seems sensible to make it more 'official' with the changes suggested.

Gets my vote anyway.

There's a little grey area that's probably worth mentioning though:

On the DIY / Covers board, I'd like us to still be able to post an updated track to our threads. Although this activity could be seen as falling under 'work in progress', it doesn't always begin that way. For example: I post a song like 'Bad Chemicals' that I think is complete. But then Covermark comes along and adds some kick-ass guitar licks that make the track even better. So I'd like to still have a facility to add these 'suprise' enhancements on the same thread.

We also need to agree on allowing a little bit of Audacity-type sound fx on the DIY boards. Strictly speaking, it's not member-performed, but it's often a reasonable inclusion in producing a finished song.

Do you still intend a Boss focus that would warrant tagging of boss/non boss recorded stuff ?
Is there anything more that can (or should) be done to protect the site owners from copyright infrigment issues caused by board members rather than rely on the member to ensure legality of what is posted ?
It isn't my area of law but I can do some looking to see if there is anything we can do to reduce the risk.

Oh, otherwise well thought through.

Gets my vote guys.

And I agree with the points that Launched, Greeny and Migs raised.

I'm guessing that "sound effects" would probably still be ok Greeny. I've used a ticking grandfather clock before, that sort of thing. (Obviously, a "sound effect" such as "Jack Bruce's complete bassline performance from Politician" comes under a slightly different heading than the sound effects I think you and I are thinking of :D)

Gets my vote as well.

I think it's very well thought out and very much in the spirit of this wonderful site.

There will be some grey areas still I guess but we'll sort them out as we go. A question I was left with is, rather philosophical, "What does it mean to perform?" With all the new technology, there comes so many possibilities to play and sing almost perfect without actually doing very much. I've used the harmonizer on the br800 myself a few times, and arpeggiators on synths also feels a bit like cheating, tho I wouldn't hesitate to use it. The next step for me would be to write out the score for the synth-part of a song (as I'm not a very good keyboardist) and record it to the br and add guitars and vocals. I would still feel like I'd performed the whole song because, for me, writing down the notes would take much more effort than actually performing it ... and then there's all these wonderful new piePhone apps I'd like to try out ::)  .... well ... just some random quasi-philosophical thoughts from the viking monkey ... don't take it to seriously ;D

Quote from: Greeny on June 16, 2011, 12:43:34 AMI post a song like 'Bad Chemicals' that I think is complete. But then Covermark comes along and adds some kick-ass guitar licks that make the track even better. So I'd like to still have a facility to add these 'suprise' enhancements on the same thread.

   I'm forever getting up to these kind of shenanigans....

      I'd like to suggest the protocol be one I've used myself for this scenario....

             Edit your original first post with eg. WARNING!! MIX 2 ON PAGE 3!!!!!! above the player, so people know that buggerments are afoot.
              Repost the buggermented song as a reply in the original thread, but rather than uploading to Songcrafters, use Soundclick (or whatever) to save server space here.

             Know what I mean?

                                                       henwrench

I agree on many of the new directions, but not all.

Points 2, 3, 4 and 6 are OK for me too.

I have doubts about the concept of separating the "everything performed by members" and "not everything performed by members".

I think that in most cases each one of us lives several hundreds of miles far away other Songcrafters, and unless we are poly-instrumentalist (of course I am NOT...), if you go on on this way we could have the "everything" category full of just voice & guitar (with some keyboards...) songs. So, quite simple compositions, without the sound of reed, strings, synths and so on.
Of course I talk by my point of view, since I use often (legal) backing tracks by BIAB to enrich my performance. And as far as I know, usually all the loops can be freely used, even for commercial use. So, separating the "everything" from the "not everything", giving this way a negative connotation to the "not everything", has no sense, IMHO. We listen to each song on the whole, regardless of what has been used, of course if everything used is legal.

To be clear: nothing against a single instrument, or single instrument plus voice song, but I would expect the same if someone thinks about music as a more complex thing...and this of course requires loops and/or backing tracks. Again, everything used must be legal, but I think that this is responsability of the poster. A disclaimer of the website management would be right, in this sense.

My 2 cents...

Alfredo

Quote from: henwrench on June 16, 2011, 05:32:40 AMbuggerments

Ha ha... I love that expression! Pure henwrench gold!

it gets my vote as well

2 things I would like to mention though.

I would have separate boards for Originals and Covers in lieu of child boards strictly for navigation purposes. The "Originals" board is the heart and soul of this forum, there's no way it should become a child board. As a matter of fact, it should hold the top level position in the "post your work" section. My child boards barely receive any attention for a couple reasons. They require additional navigation which surprisingly people don't do. We're a one click society. The final reason: Child boards are quite easy to collapse accidentally, and will increase administration requirements.

I'm on the fence with backing tracks. Part of me wants to view it as a logistic nightmare. If the stipulation is legality, then it suggests that the admin team would be required to investigate each post independently. Hell, I don't know if the backers I've posted are legit or not, mostly because I don't care.... sorry.

On the other side of the coin, I'm glad backers are getting bumped to a higher level, I don't see any difference between backers and all the sampling that's been posted at the top level boards. I considered that an unfair distinction, so this levels the playing field a bit. Get it, playing field...

Geir brings up a solid point with the keyboard capabilities. I can make some pretty amazing soundscapes with my keyboard with minimal key strokes, slap 3 minutes worth of guitar work on it, and call it an original which sounds like a masterpiece (relative to my skill level). Ultimately my personal feel on this would be that these posts belong in the "general" section. Lets face it, I can add in a symphony with a push of a button and a couple key strokes.

Just wanted to take the time to say that I/we truly appreciate all the work you good folks put into the site. Whatever direction the site heads in, I know it will be well considered.

Peace.

Blooby

I think the question of performance (did you/didn't you) is more to address the point of why a song is posted in our community.

  I could go and ask Uncle Bob, Aunt Fanny, Granny Alan and Grandpa Eva to all record some stuff and then post it as my own, 'cos I asked 'em to do it. In the future, that would be seen as a Bad Thing.
  Or I could ask Uncle Bob et al to record some stuff and I could add my vocals and a lead guitar. In the future, that would be seen as a Good Thing.

      D'ya get me, shags?

                                                           henwrench

I still consider myself new to this site but intend on getting more songs posted in the near future, I can see how reorganization of the site would be beneficial but I'm not sure the word 'General' is best as it suggests it is the normal or main body of the board, it is afterall a sort of 'everything else allowed' board.

I think 'work in progress' is a good idea.

I also think that the Original and Cover should be seperate and not under the DIY heading. I guess these 2 elements are the main inputs into the site?

I personally think it's great to have a couple of the boards unified mostly because there are places that I rarely find time to visit on the site. This means that I spend most of the time available listening to original material and missing out on so much more good music that has been posted elsewhere. I'm just happy to be able to post my music for revue/critique so will endeavour to stay within whatever boundries you deem fit to use. Regards Willie W

Quote from: launched on June 15, 2011, 10:21:08 PMThe only thing I would hope remains constant is some sort of tag that is labeled "Collaboration". I think it would be a bad idea to discard our shining beacon of invitation. True, there is not always a healthy amount of activity visibly, but behind the scenes it works wonders. "Work In Progress" is an entirely different animal.

The idea of collaborations is an important part of Songcrafters and we certainly want that to continue. However, I think that calling the board "Collaborations" might suggest to some people that they have to post their finished songs there if they've collaborated with other members. That, of course, is not true and never has been. The Collaborations board was always meant for unfinished songs that you want other members to add to. Once the song is complete, it should be posted in Original Songs, Cover Songs, or General. That's why I prefer the name Work in Progress. It makes it clear that finished collaborations don't belong there. It also seems a more suitable name if it's to include lyrics and early mixes of songs as I've suggested. These aren't really collaborations but they are works in progress.

I would certainly like to encourage collaborations any way I can though. I could mention collaborations in the board's description on the forum home page. And perhaps I could post a more detailed description in the board and make it a sticky topic so that new members are more likely to see it.

I do not disagree with your proposed structure or philosophy.

But I have to ask "What if we just left it as is?"

Is there something that is not working well or otherwise interfering with the functioning of the site?

Will re-organizing improve our Songcrafters experience?

Quote from: Greeny on June 16, 2011, 12:43:34 AMIt feels like this direction has more or less happened organically anyway, so it seems sensible to make it more 'official' with the changes suggested.

Exactly. That's why I used the word "minor" in the subject. This is just a slight refinement on what we already have. Hopefully, it will give new members and visitors a better idea of what Songcrafters is all about. The only real difference is that it allows us to reserve Original Songs and Cover Songs for purely member-performed recordings. We haven't always been able to do that in the past because there was no suitable board to move the exceptions to. But the General board will solve that problem.

QuoteThere's a little grey area that's probably worth mentioning though:

On the DIY / Covers board, I'd like us to still be able to post an updated track to our threads. Although this activity could be seen as falling under 'work in progress', it doesn't always begin that way. For example: I post a song like 'Bad Chemicals' that I think is complete. But then Covermark comes along and adds some kick-ass guitar licks that make the track even better. So I'd like to still have a facility to add these 'suprise' enhancements on the same thread.

Definitely! The problem I was hoping to solve is the multiple mixes of a song that sometimes get posted when it's known ahead of time that the song isn't finished. For example, a certain Scotsman whom we all know and love has been known to get excited about a new JK song and post it with a comment like "Mike hasn't added the bass yet but I couldn't wait". That's fine, but since he knows that the song isn't finished yet, I think it should be posted in the Work in Progress board. Then, after Mike adds the bass and everyone's happy with the final mix, it can be posted in Original Songs.

One of the big problems with multiple posts of a song is that they all get included in the Latest Songs and On This Day jukeboxes as well as the member's personal jukebox. I'd like to avoid all that repetition of song titles in the jukeboxes. If members post their "pre-release" mixes in Work in Progress, I can exclude that board from the jukeboxes so that only the final mix in Originals, Covers, or General gets included in the jukeboxes.

I've been working on an even better solution to that problem but I don't know when it will be finished. When it is, you'll be able to add details about your songs such as title, writer, performers, recorder, and recording date. These details will be stored in a song database. It will also include a link to the song if it's stored offsite. All of the jukeboxes will then use the song database instead of the attachments folder. That way, the song details can be automatically displayed with the player, and it will include all song posts whether they're attached or stored offsite. But you'll only be able to enter/edit the song details in the first message of your topic. You'll still be able to post alternate mixes later in the topic but they won't be included in the jukeboxes unless you edit your first message and enter the URL of the mix that you prefer. So the jukeboxes will only include one version of each song. Which version they include will be entirely up to the poster since they can edit the first message of their topic at any time and change the URL to point to a different version of the song.

QuoteWe also need to agree on allowing a little bit of Audacity-type sound fx on the DIY boards. Strictly speaking, it's not member-performed, but it's often a reasonable inclusion in producing a finished song.

Thanks for reminding me. This is something that came up in our admin discussions and I had meant to mention it here but I forgot.

I think there are two types of samples we need to consider. There's the sound effects like rain, thunder, howling wind, dogs barking, etc. These are not musical performances so it doesn't matter that the member didn't create them himself. So any effects samples like that can definitely be included in songs posted in the DIY boards. But the other type of sample is the 'loop' sample which is usually of a short musical phrase played on an instrument or sung. These samples will not be allowed in the DIY boards because they consist of musical performances by someone other than the member. Songs that include samples of this type should be posted in the General board instead.

I am in favour of this refinement 64G.  It apeals to me.

I agree with condensing some of the boards into a more streamlined structure. However, I have a few comments.

What real reason is there to separate Originals from Covers? If they are recorded and performed, then they should just be allowed to be posted in the same place. This is similar to the way Tony has it on his site. Who realistically says to themselves, "I only wanna listen to originals today" or "Today is a good day to listen to some covers"? When I have time to listen to stuff, I see MUSIC posted not covers or originals or any other trivial distinction. I usually see "Oh cool, Henny's got a new song up!" or "Awesome, Greeny got something new up!" Whether it is a cover or an original is irrelevant. It's about the members and what they've worked on. Otherwise it just segregation. The "cool kids" here and the "not so cool kids" here. Just something to think about and discuss. :)

Meaning no offense to anyone... But I do think that making the Originals and Covers for "Member Performed Only" is quite frankly pretentious and a tad "Big Brother". Now I can't post stuff I've worked on with other musicians unless they are members here?

I believe "Backing Track Jams" is in the same boat here. If it is a "Challenge" type of thing, each take that a member does, is essentially a different song with a different feel and different interpretation of what the song may means or conveys. As far as non-challenge use. How can we seclude members who only play one instrument? Though I would hope members get comfortable enough to collab with other members, we cannot force them to work with others. Otherwise we are just relegating them to a section of the forum we all know isn't as popular. It make many of them feel left out.

Perhaps some new Message Icons:
OG = Original
CV = Covers
BT = Backing Track

Perhaps Challenges can have it's own board. It used to be pretty popular here until the boards were changed to relegate those to the ether.

As for Collaborations. I too believe it is an important part of this community. However, "Work In Progress" just doesn't sound right. I think it is too vague. It sounds like a place you would post to get feedback on something you are currently working on, not where you would go to find collabs. I would like to suggest something like "Help Wanted". It's short and clear and obvious that you wouldn't post the final result in this location.

So in the end the structure would look like this:

General Discussion
         General Discussion
         Just For Laughs
         Introduce Yourself not really necessary

Post Your Work
         Songs
         Help Wanted
         Gunslingers (Challenges)
         Cover Songs added to Songs
         Tributes added to Songs
         Collaborations becomes Help Wanted
         Backing Track Jam added to Songs
         Lyrics rarely used and can go under songwriting

Songwriting
         General
         Lyric Advice no reason this can't be under General

Instruments
         Guitar & Bass
         Other
         Vocals judging by lack of posts, unnecessary
         Other Instruments combined with Vocals into just "Other"

Home Recording
         Multitrack Recorders
         Other
         General now Other
         DAW & Music Software combined into "Other"

Just something for discussion... Not meaning to sound like anything is an issue. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for the great job everyone is doing here.  :)

Quote from: Migs on June 16, 2011, 01:49:06 AMDo you still intend a Boss focus

That's a good question. I haven't discussed it with the admin team yet but it's something that I've been thinking about a lot. I think I'd like to make the site more Boss-specific like it used to be. No offense to users of other brands or DAWs. They'll always be welcome here, but most of our members are Boss users and I think I'd prefer to promote Songcrafters as a Boss users site rather than a general home recording and songwriting site. But that's something I'll have to discuss further with the admin team. If anyone has any strong feelings about this subject, please mention them now so that the admin team can take your views into consideration when we discuss it.

Quotethat would warrant tagging of boss/non boss recorded stuff ?

As I mentioned in another message, I'm working on a song database idea that will include a field for recorder. So that will take care of the brand tagging. Members will be able to specify the exact recorder they used, whether it's a Boss, some other brand, or a software DAW.

QuoteIs there anything more that can (or should) be done to protect the site owners from copyright infrigment issues caused by board members rather than rely on the member to ensure legality of what is posted ?
It isn't my area of law but I can do some looking to see if there is anything we can do to reduce the risk.

Thanks. That would be appreciated. I've noticed that most sites post a notice saying that they're not responsible for what gets posted on their site. But I'm skeptical that that's enough. I suspect that the site's owner and administrators could be held responsible regardless of any such notices they've posted. That's what worries me about backing tracks, etc. Most people download them and use them without any regard for where they came from and what rights, if any, they have in using them.

QuoteOtherwise we are just relegating them to a section of the forum we all know isn't as popular. It make many of them feel left out.

Sai is absolutely correct about this point. As most know, I created a forum simply to afford people to host files in a familiar format to songcrafters, when Pedro announced that we would no longer be hosting music directly. There was absolutely no intention of becoming a real forum until backing tracks were segregated into oblivion.

There is one inescapable fact about the backing tracks being largely ignored though. If the members here wanted to listen and comment we would have done so....

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 16, 2011, 12:42:44 PMNow I can't post stuff I've worked on with other musicians unless they are members here?

I share Sai's concern over discouraging posting of music involving non-members.  The majority of my postings (virtually all of the reasonable ones!) have been False Prophet colaborations involving one luddite non-internet member, as well as Nick (Nightcaller) and myself.  It would be a shame for Nick and I to have to stop posting these and getting the group's valued feedback.

Although I use a Boss recorder, personally I would be inclined to encourage any home recording equipment as long as equipment used is admitted to.  We wouldn't want people using a full Protools set up yet claiming to only use a micro BR!  

In fact, now I think about it, both my main keyboards have 16-track midi recorders built in.  I mainly use the BR for audio recording my guitars and keyboard submixes, then final mix/mastering.  But I normally state this when posting a piece and always give details when questioned.  I can't see that this is a problem?

Anyway these are only my thoughts.  You guys do all the work on the forum and therefore you must do you think best.

Paul Chapman.

Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 16, 2011, 04:30:49 AMThere will be some grey areas still I guess but we'll sort them out as we go. A question I was left with is, rather philosophical, "What does it mean to perform?" With all the new technology, there comes so many possibilities to play and sing almost perfect without actually doing very much. I've used the harmonizer on the br800 myself a few times, and arpeggiators on synths also feels a bit like cheating, tho I wouldn't hesitate to use it. The next step for me would be to write out the score for the synth-part of a song (as I'm not a very good keyboardist) and record it to the br and add guitars and vocals. I would still feel like I'd performed the whole song because, for me, writing down the notes would take much more effort than actually performing it ... and then there's all these wonderful new piePhone apps I'd like to try out ::)  .... well ... just some random quasi-philosophical thoughts from the viking monkey ... don't take it to seriously ;D

It's a good question. I think "perform" means to actually play the music yourself. It's okay to augment your performance with technology. But things like backing tracks, loops, and midi files are a substitute for your performance, so they won't be allowed in the DIY boards. I think arpeggiators and harmonizers only augment your performance. You still have to play or sing something. The arpeggiator merely fills in some extra notes between yours. And the harmonizer makes a copy of your performance and alters the pitch of it. In both cases, the performance is still yours. The technology only augments it, so it's fine to use arpeggiators and harmonizers in songs posted to the DIY boards.

But there are other areas where technology can get a bit too automated. For example, my Yamaha keyboard has an auto-accompaniment feature where it will create an entire bass track based on the chords I play. I think that's going a bit too far and a song with a bass track created in this way doesn't belong in the DIY boards. I'm not playing the bass notes at all so it's not my performance.

I see that there are a lot of interesting comments being posted in this topic. I'll try to reply to all of them but I'm doing so in the order that they're posted. That way, I won't miss any. So please be patient. I'll get to your comments eventually but it might take a while.

Quote from: chapperz66 on June 16, 2011, 01:21:08 PMAlthough I use a Boss recorder, personally I would be inclined to encourage any home recording equipment as long as equipment used is admitted to.  We wouldn't want people using a full Protools set up yet claiming to only use a micro BR!  

I agree with this.  The way I see it this site is all about "Home Recording", not specific to what the recording is done on, but done in a home studio environment.  Recording on Tascam or Boss or any interface that links to a computer DAW (as the latest BOSS machines do) doesn't matter.  What matters is that we are all Home recording folks, not professionals, using what ever tools we can afford to get good quality recordings for our pleasure and sharing with our friends on this site and with friends in the non-cyber world.  

I just want to echo the words of a couple of the other comments here:

A BIG THANK YOU to the admins and the owner of this h(e)aven in the world wild web !!!



PS. I think I'll have to get my brother to join the forum ;)

Quote from: Tony W on June 16, 2011, 01:06:27 PMThere is one inescapable fact about the backing tracks being largely ignored though. If the members here wanted to listen and comment we would have done so....

You are absolutely right about this... to a certain degree. If you remember, or perhaps my memory is faulty, they got almost as much comments as other posts until they were separated from the other song posts. You made mention in your post on how no one wants to go clicking more than they have too. If they could find all songs in one place, this MAY solve that. But I fully understand that it may not, and then I'd have egg on my face. ;)

Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 16, 2011, 01:59:09 PMPS. I think I'll have to get my brother to join the forum ;)

Great idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also... reading my post back, I would like to clarify something. I am not calling anyone here "pretentious" nor "Big Brother". I fear that any possible new members to the community may feel that way. We seem to have a lot of members who either rarely post, or who seem to have become less involved than they used to. I have a suspicion that some changes may have turn off some of our members.

Again... I am completely aware that I may well be full of sh!t and completely wrong. Just food for thought.

Quote from: henwrench on June 16, 2011, 05:32:40 AM

Quote from: Greeny on June 16, 2011, 12:43:34 AMI post a song like 'Bad Chemicals' that I think is complete. But then Covermark comes along and adds some kick-ass guitar licks that make the track even better. So I'd like to still have a facility to add these 'suprise' enhancements on the same thread.

   I'm forever getting up to these kind of shenanigans....

      I'd like to suggest the protocol be one I've used myself for this scenario....

             Edit your original first post with eg. WARNING!! MIX 2 ON PAGE 3!!!!!! above the player, so people know that buggerments are afoot.
              Repost the buggermented song as a reply in the original thread, but rather than uploading to Songcrafters, use Soundclick (or whatever) to save server space here.

You can also use the [singlemp3][/singlemp3] tags to add a player in your first message which is linked to an attachment further down in the topic. For example, you could right-click on the attachment for MIX 2 on PAGE 3 and copy the URL to the clipboard. Then edit your first message and paste that URL between the [singlemp3][/singlemp3] tags and save your message. The first message of your topic will then have a player that plays MIX 2.

I think it's important to always have the latest version of a song (or a link to it) in the first message of a topic so that it can be found easily. This will become much easier when I get my song database finished because the first message will be the only place that songs in the database can be found. And the poster can easily update the message at any time to point to a different version of the song if they choose.

^ 64G, this song database idea sounds really good, amazing infact.  Thank you for all your hard work around here.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 16, 2011, 02:15:37 PM^ 64G, this song database idea sounds really good, amazing infact.  Thank you for all your hard work around here.

Hear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

Quote from: alfstone on June 16, 2011, 05:34:16 AMI have doubts about the concept of separating the "everything performed by members" and "not everything performed by members".

I think that in most cases each one of us lives several hundreds of miles far away other Songcrafters, and unless we are poly-instrumentalist (of course I am NOT...), if you go on on this way we could have the "everything" category full of just voice & guitar (with some keyboards...) songs. So, quite simple compositions, without the sound of reed, strings, synths and so on.
Of course I talk by my point of view, since I use often (legal) backing tracks by BIAB to enrich my performance. And as far as I know, usually all the loops can be freely used, even for commercial use. So, separating the "everything" from the "not everything", giving this way a negative connotation to the "not everything", has no sense, IMHO. We listen to each song on the whole, regardless of what has been used, of course if everything used is legal.

To be clear: nothing against a single instrument, or single instrument plus voice song, but I would expect the same if someone thinks about music as a more complex thing...and this of course requires loops and/or backing tracks. Again, everything used must be legal, but I think that this is responsability of the poster. A disclaimer of the website management would be right, in this sense.

Thanks for your comments, Alfredo. I don't think there's any danger of the DIY boards becoming only vocals and guitar. Many of our members own and play several instruments (if Bluesberry buys any more instruments, he'll have to get a bigger house :D). Also, many members, including yourself, have guitar or keyboard synthesizers which can emulate other instruments. Those are welcome in the DIY boards because the musical performance is yours. So it will still be possible to create very elaborate, layered recordings with many instruments, either on your own or with other members. And we very much encourage our members to do just that because that's what multitrack recording is all about and it's the spirit of Songcrafters. But, if I understand BIAB correctly, it consists of loops of short musical phrases which you arrange in the desired order to create your backing tracks. This can produce some really nice results (which you've demonstrated many times) but if my assumption is correct, the musical performance on those tracks is not your own. So we'd ask you to post them in the General Post Your Work board rather than the DIY boards.

I hope that people won't see the General board as a negative thing. Remember, this will be the main board for song posts. There will be no restrictions on this board except for the general restrictions that apply to all of the boards (must be legal; must have member content; must be finished, except for the Work in Progress board). So the General board becomes the norm and the DIY boards become the exception. If you look at it that way, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with posting in the General Post Your Work board.

QuoteHear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

i second that emotion

Quote from: oldrottenhead on June 16, 2011, 03:30:46 PM

QuoteHear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

i second that emotion

I actually think that the site runs brilliantly already, i've spent a great couple of months learning and listening so far, it's also strangely addictive. The time spent by a great number of people putting up information and advise to others is fantastic and much appreciated. Thanks 64 Guitars and co.! 10/10.

Quote from: Tony W on June 16, 2011, 05:37:05 AMI would have separate boards for Originals and Covers in lieu of child boards strictly for navigation purposes. The "Originals" board is the heart and soul of this forum, there's no way it should become a child board. As a matter of fact, it should hold the top level position in the "post your work" section. My child boards barely receive any attention for a couple reasons. They require additional navigation which surprisingly people don't do. We're a one click society. The final reason: Child boards are quite easy to collapse accidentally, and will increase administration requirements.

Yeah, I think you might be right. We used to have some child boards here but Pedro eventually got rid of them. I assume he had some good reasons for doing that, though I'm not sure what they were. So, if we go ahead with this, I think I'll just rename the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards to DIY Originals and DIY Covers, and keep them as separate boards rather than child boards.

QuoteI'm on the fence with backing tracks. Part of me wants to view it as a logistic nightmare. If the stipulation is legality, then it suggests that the admin team would be required to investigate each post independently. Hell, I don't know if the backers I've posted are legit or not, mostly because I don't care.... sorry.

Thanks for your honesty. You've illustrated one of my greatest fears about backing tracks. Most people don't know or care if the backing tracks they use can legally be reposted. So it's practically a certainty that illegal recordings will be posted. There's no way that the admin team can identify which recordings are legal and which are not, so it's unfair to expect us to take responsibility for the actions of a few thoughtless members. But I suspect that any legal action would be taken against the admin team, especially Flash Harry as the owner of the site. That's really not fair, especially since none of us on the admin team are fans of backing tracks. We could avoid all of the legal uncertainty by simply not allowing any backing tracks at all. But, instead, we're trying to accomodate the few members who like them. So I think those members should try to be more understanding about our position on backing tracks and be grateful that they're allowed to post them at all. The same applies to loops and midi files. Some of them are licensed for personal use only and cannot be legally reposted on the internet. But I doubt if most of our members know or care if they have the right to repost the loops and midi files they're using in their songs.

Maybe we should require a disclaimer on every song post that uses backing tracks, loops, or midi files. "I certify that I have the right to post this file on this site and accept full responsibility that I am using it legally. The owner and administrators of this site are in no way liable for any consequences as a result of my post. Any liability is entirely my own."  No, I'm not suggesting that we do that. But it makes you think, doesn't it?  Posters would think twice about using files they found on the internet if it was their asses on the line instead of ours. I think we'd see a lot fewer backing tracks, loops, and midi files used in songs. And the few brave members who did use them would be a lot more careful about making sure that they have the right to repost those files.

QuoteI don't see any difference between backers and all the sampling that's been posted at the top level boards. I considered that an unfair distinction, so this levels the playing field a bit. Get it, playing field...

I agree. Loop samples aren't much different than backing tracks. Neither are performed by a member, and the admin team cannot easily ascertain whether they're legal or not. It's the same with downloaded midi files. So it makes sense to post them all in the same board.

QuoteGeir brings up a solid point with the keyboard capabilities. I can make some pretty amazing soundscapes with my keyboard with minimal key strokes, slap 3 minutes worth of guitar work on it, and call it an original which sounds like a masterpiece (relative to my skill level). Ultimately my personal feel on this would be that these posts belong in the "general" section. Lets face it, I can add in a symphony with a push of a button and a couple key strokes.

Yes, as I said in my reply to Geir's post, there are some levels of automation on some keyboards which shouldn't be allowed in the DIY boards. For example, the auto-accompaniment on my Yamaha keyboard shouldn't be allowed because it creates a complete bass track without me doing anything except playing some chords. The chords are my performance but the bass is not. But I think things like arpeggiators and vocal harmonizers are perfectly acceptable since you still have to play most of the notes yourself. In those cases, the technology is augmenting your performance rather than being a substitute for it.

I would hope that everyone will be honest about their use of backing tracks, loops, midi files, and keyboard automation. There's no shame in saying that you've used one of these techniques in your recording. And if you make it clear in your message which parts are you and which are not, then people can comment on your parts. But I think it would be very shameful to post something in the DIY boards knowing that you didn't perform it yourself but letting others think that you did. So take credit only for the parts you've performed, and give credit to the musicians who performed the other parts, even if you don't know who they are.

QuoteSo, if we go ahead with this, I think I'll just rename the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards to DIY Originals and DIY Covers, and keep them as separate boards rather than child boards.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I like less boards. I would go so far as to say combining Covers and Originals into one board would help a lot. I very seldom go to the covers board. I'm not sure why, honestly. But the Originals board I frequent at least every other day. (Although I've been remiss in my commenting, which I'm suitably ashamed of.)

A few questions:

Is it okay if I submit members only in general instead of DIY? Would it get moved if I did?

If I don't use a drum machine, but instead get a drum track from a friend in London does it qualify as DIY? What's the difference if I use a drum machine or a r.l. drummer a few thousand miles away?

If I use the built in Drum Machine on my 900 I can post in DIY. If I don't program the drum machine is it still DIY?

As an alternative, why not have one board for finished music and have tags for what is 100% member certified and Covers and everything else? Then make a songs list that you can sort. Ie, not necessarily a separate board to post, but a heading you can click that lists all the songs that you can sort by post date/time, most recent comment, cover tags, or member name, or a bunch of things, really. (There are some sites that do a great job of this.)

If I have backing vox from a friend in London (harmony vox on the chorus) does it negate it's DIY status? What if I get her to sign up but she never posts a song or a message?


Thanks for your time. I'm kind of playing devils advocate. I think I like the highlighting of 100% member contributions. I think I'd rather have tags, but the way you've described it sounds like it would work. If these changes take place I would certainly still be checking in on a regular basis. It wouldn't change my admiration for this place at all (and might actually help it.)

And a big Thank You to the entire admin staff is certainly more than well deserved. You've got my support in every endeavor that is helpful to DIY musicians.

T.C. (pigfarmer jr)

P.S. - Boss - I think highlighting the Boss information is a great idea, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it in such a manner that would (inadvertently) discourage another platform or cause them to feel less than welcome.

For me, the ultimate goal of this site, the reason I found this place and am very loyal to keep coming back, that goal is learning and continuos improvement and love for the craft of songwriting, performing, singing, writing lyrics, writing original songs, learning to play as many instruments as I need to be able to craft complete original songs.  That is what I get out of this place and is the main focus for me......and I also come here to listen to other like-minded folks doing the same thing.  I love hearing original songs made entirely by member or collaboration of members.  That is what keeps bringing me back.  That is the most important thing we do around here.  I started my musical life 3 years ago as a guitar hack that only jammed to backing tracks.  That was fine for a while, but getting on here I realized the sky was the limit and I started slowly to craft my own songs, and what a thrill that was.  This site is a nurturing ground, and fertilizer for learning to play instruments, write lyrics, learn to sing, write original chord progressions, learn to record/mix and master.  This is what should be celebrated and encouraged.  For this reason I agree with 64G's idea for DIY Originals and DIY Covers. It is in celebration of the hard work and huge creative effort it takes to produce such works.  The same with Covers, again, if the member or members played everything themselves, that is a much more satisfying, interesting thing than just taking a backer and adding a few bits over the top.  The act of starting completely  from scratch and ending up with a cover, while usually not exactly the same as the original, takes real inspiration and effort to pull off.  I find doing covers like this harder than originals sometimes.  And I always get inside the original song and learn something in the process.  In terms of effort involved, and inspiration involved, and the reward after it is finished, it is the songs that we start completely from scratch, play everything ourselves, all the choices that get made, that is the real craft going on, and that is the kind of efforts that this site should be promoting, encouraging, celebrating, proudly displaying.  Playing a guitar lead over a backer is fun, and a good learning experience, and god knows, I have posted my fair share of guitar solos over backers over the years.  But for effort involved, creativity required, craft, a backer jam is not in the same league as an original song or originally conceived cover.  It takes me a couple of weeks to finish an original song, a month sometimes.  Likewise for covers, they can easily take a week or two to do.  Adding a guitar solo over a backer is usually an hour from start to finish, to posted mp3.  It should not be put in the same board as DIY Original or DIY Covers.  It is a different kind of beast and needs a board where like minded efforts go.  Imagine working for a month on an original song, played everything, wrote the lyrics, sang, etc, and finally got it posted and watch as a bunch of backers type of posts come along and bury it onto page 2 within half a day.  Not in the same level of effort, not in the same level of interest (for me), should not be on the same board.  Thats why I endorse 64G's idea here, it makes sense to me based on how I see this site, how I interact here, what I am interesting in seeing, and the number one goal for me on this site is to promote learning to play your instruments, learn to sing, learn to write lyrics, learn to perform, learn to write engaging original songs and interesting versions of Covers, learn to record well, collaborate with like-minded folks.  Thats the heart of this site for me.

Well said BB! You've hit on most of the things that we on the admin team feel strongly about and even mentioned a few that I hadn't thought of. That's what Songcrafters is all about and the direction we want it to continue heading in. That's not to say that there can't be a place for backing tracks and the like, but we'll never encourage them in the same way we do the DIY boards. And as you said, it would be wrong to allow backers and the like to push DIY songs to page 2 when the DIY songs required considerably more time and effort to create. That's why they need to be in different boards.

Thank you for a brilliant post!

Crikey

I though we just finished the last redecorating.

I'm still not used to it and we are changing again.

I know that someone always has to pay for anarchy but I still lean towards less rules and more freedom.

None of these comments help you make a decision but I do want to say that there is an awful lot of fussing going on.

Ian

Quote from: Flash Harry on June 16, 2011, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 16, 2011, 02:15:37 PM^ 64G, this song database idea sounds really good, amazing infact.  Thank you for all your hard work around here.

Hear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

I am also in huge agreement with this. Many may not know this but 64G has don a ton of  development for me as well, for a mere thank you. He`s a hell of a guy.

Wow!!! You really only been playing 3 years BB that one he'll of a learning curve you are going through.....by the amazing standard of your music I thought you had been playing a lifetime at least........Im here to express myself and learn  From others  too....... And anything that makes that easier I'm right behind.......thanks 64 And admin for a great interactive site long may she live.........."

I still don't see the reason we need to have any song posts separated. We all have varying degrees of ability. People's use of backers is NOT a negative thing, and those that use them should not be made to feel that way.

I would be shocked if anyone here felt like their music was more deserving of being on the 1st page than another... for ANY reason.  :-\

Either keep them all separated or keep ALL songs to one forum. Why single out something out because it is wrongly classified as "not in the same league" with other posts.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 01:24:59 AMI would be shocked if anyone here felt like their music was more deserving of being on the 1st page than another... for ANY reason.  :-\

I don't think that many here think that Saijinn. I certainly don't! But I'm still in favour of seperating the originals from the covers and from the backers/challenges, because they are very different in nature. I have posted music in every catagory we have here, and I also try to comment on every catagory. And tho it can be frustrating posting a backer-based tune or even a cover and then have to wait days before you get any comments I still strongly believe that the all-originals should have their own board.

I do think the new General board in Post Your Work will get more attention, than the backer board have had so I think the minor changes that's been suggested will be a good thing for this site.

A minor change I'd like to se tho is that the "Recent Posts" list on the front page would have 10 instead of 5 entries.

I didn't think so either G. But some comments have been made to the effect that because so much more effort was involved in originals and unique covers, they shouldn't be knocked off the 1st page by a post using a backer. Inferring that their post was of greater value than that of the backer.

I'm done with this issue... It's not my site. Not felt the same since the last changes. I am never in favor of rules for NO GOOD REASON. If it makes it easier to search, by all means! If it allows the jukebox to properly pull the music, then fine. But because you may not want to see it is NOT a good reason.

Just to give you an idea... My daughter came home from school one day saying that she was told that she could not go to school with black nail polish. Now, there was nothing in the school or district policy about this. So I made sure she went to school everyday, for the next two weeks, wearing black nail polish. :P

It's the principle. I don't even do backers anymore, no thanks to the step-child status it has been relegated too. But placing a value on one post over another based on effort and ability is bullsh!t. All posts should have an equal right to be viewed as any other.

I'm done.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 02:23:18 AMI'm done.

I won't be alone in thinking that this a sad turn of events. I'm hoping you'll reconsider?

Quote from: Greeny on June 17, 2011, 03:02:38 AM

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 02:23:18 AMI'm done.

I won't be alone in thinking that this a sad turn of events. I'm hoping you'll reconsider?

??? Whoa! No wait! Sorry to imply something more serious...

I just meant that I was done arguing my point. :P

I love this place! That is the only reason I seem to get all bent out of shape sometimes about it. :/

Apologize for the misunderstanding.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 03:03:52 AM

Quote from: Greeny on June 17, 2011, 03:02:38 AM

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 02:23:18 AMI'm done.

I won't be alone in thinking that this a sad turn of events. I'm hoping you'll reconsider?

??? Whoa! No wait! Sorry to imply something more serious...

I just meant that I was done arguing my point. :P

I love this place! That is the only reason I seem to get all bent out of shape sometimes about it. :/

Apologize for the misunderstanding.

Lol. I thought it was a last goodbye!!!!

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 01:24:59 AMWe all have varying degrees of ability. People's use of backers is NOT a negative thing, and those that use them should not be made to feel that way.

I am not saying I am against backers.  I use backers all the time.  I jam along to backers for hours on end on a regular basis.  My issue with backers is that somebody else did 90% of the music.  To take a backer off the internet, add a guitar solo over the top and post it is kind of like cheating in my opinion.  If a person wants to do a guitar based instrumental, then make the backer yourself.  We have all the technology and tools we need to make our own backers, why use backers at all when you are trying to create a piece of music.  I love hearing instrumental music, especially guitar based.  I am less interested in listening to somebody soloing over a backer, the same backer that i have heard 100's of times before.  Why use a backer at all in these cases, create something from scratch.  That is much more satisfying, and interesting for the audience (us listeners on this site).  This is a songwriting and home recording forum.  This is not a guitar noodlers site.  A lot of us on this site play guitar, but the emphasis here is constructing music.  Make your own backer, play a solo over it, now thats something.  Take a backer off the internet, a backer that everyone and their dog has played along to, spend 15 minutes laying a solo over it, that is much less interesting to me.  Why use a backer at all if you are creating music, I don't see the point.  I use backers all the time, jam at home to them every week, but when it is time for me to create some piece of music I don't want some anonymous dude on the internet to have done 90% of the music for me.  I don't see the point in that.  That is so much less original than starting from scratch.  And that is what this site is trying to promote, creating music ourselves, using our talents (all varying degrees), using our creativity, using our knowledge of music.  The problem with backers for me is that somebody else I don't even know had made most of the choices.  They have chosen the tempo, key, chord progression, bass line, piano, horns, you name it, it is already set.  My ability to create original or interesting music using this backer is limited.  I am stuck with what the backer dude chose to put down.  Now if I start from scratch, and I get to make all those choices, tempo, key, what chords, fast part, slow part, soft part, loud part, drums here, no drums there.......etc. Now when it is time to lay the big epic guitar solo over the top, this is far more interesting, satisfying, creative, original music.  Why use backers at all for making music to post on here, just start from scratch and make your own.  That is what we should be encouraging on here, being original, being creative.  Using backers to produce music feels like cheating to me.  And to say the level of effort required to either use an already produced backer or to start from scratch is the same, that is just crazy talk.  Make you own backer, don't go stealing somebody else's already recorded music.  Everyone of us has the skill (each in our own way), the tools (each in our own way), the inspiration and creativity (each in our own way) to create music, to create our own backers, to create wonderful engaging musical compositions.  We don't need somebody else to do 90% of the music for us.  Thats the way I feel about backers.

As an example.........over on Tony's site they are having a blues music fest........and for the most part the members over there have created the backers themselves.........thats the gold I am talking about...........and then they are taking the member created backers and adding all kinds of stuff, vocals, keys, guitar solos, and essentially crafting original blues songs from these member created backers............thats really cool, thats the way to use backers IMO, create them ourselves.................Hell, we could have a spot over here for member created backers, anybody that feels like making a backer or has a piece of unfinished music, post it all in one spot, and then other members can come along and use those backers for jamming, adding vocals, finishing into original songs, whatever, the sky is the limit.............but they would be more special IMO because they would be 100% member created music...............thats what I am trying to say in this long winded post about backers, lets make them ourselves.  

One thing that I am struck by and delighted with throughout this thread is how passionately people feel about this place, everyone has invested so much of themselves in this site that it is quite humbling.
I know that the guys on the admin team care about how we run the site but to see that this care and love of the place extends to the contributors to this degree is fantastic.

This has been an eye opener for me.  I'm so glad I'm here. I want this place to work for the people who use it. I want people who contribute to feel that they can continue to contribute and have fun, learn as they go, get support and nurture and feel good about the music that they have made. I don't want to make it awkward to use or irritating getting to the bits you want to get at.

It may be worth pointing out that 64Guitars has enhanced the site remarkably over the past year or so, member jukeboxes, on this day, festivals, not to mention the stuff he has done for the Picasso project, Jemima's Kite and Geir Sings the Beatles. All of these have to my mind at least, improved access to the stuff I want to hear or reminded me of stuff that I have forgotten about for example that wonderful track that Osckilo and OldRottenHead did, Back to earth, which still stops me dead in my tracks.

So argue your points passionately my friends, it's your place. And mine; I want it to be here until I care for music no longer.   

Quote from: Burtog on June 16, 2011, 08:39:52 AMI can see how reorganization of the site would be beneficial but I'm not sure the word 'General' is best

I'm not sure that General is the best word either. It's already been used quite a bit here. We have a General Discussion category, a General Discussion board, a General board in Songwriting, and a General board in Home Recording. So if anyone can think of a better name, I welcome your suggestions.

Quoteas it suggests it is the normal or main body of the board

It is the normal or main board. The DIY boards are the specialised ones with restrictions on what can be posted. The General board has no restrictions other than the basic ones that apply to all of the boards.

Quoteit is afterall a sort of 'everything else allowed' board.

Not "everything else", but "everything". As I said, the general board will be the main board and members can post anything they like there within the basic restrictions that apply to all of the boards (must be legal; must have member content; must be finished, except for the Work in Progress board). They can even post their DIY songs in General if they really want to. Although, I would hope that most members will want to use the DIY boards instead for any songs they've created themselves or with other members. But we won't insist on that. It's up to the poster. So the General board really is the main board for posting songs. The DIY boards are optional, specialised boards for those members who believe in the spirit of Songcrafters and want to create their music themselves or with other members.

My point Bluesy is that you cannot force people to work together. For various reasons, some people play guitar and only play guitar. Not all that is created by a member is gold for the sole reason that it is member created. Maybe one finds that the backer created professionally for guitarists to download is much more technically involving than those created by a member. It could be that that member created backer makes one feel orange, while the other one makes one feel pink, it doesn't really matter. If you specifically don't think it is interesting enough to listen to someone just because the backer they used was not member created then that is your choice. You cannot then force that preference on others; which is essentially what you are doing when you relegate those to a known black hole. "Either learn to play more instruments, use a backer made by the 'union', or find yourself posting your stuff into oblivion.

Hell, I don't particularly think rap is nearly as musically interesting as most other types of music, so maybe we should make them post in another board so that their posts don't affect my, much more technically proficient and better, music. Hell, lets make sure we separate everything that I feel is less interesting. I don't particularly care for country music...

Quote from: BluesberryMy issue with backers is that somebody else did 90% of the music.

How is that different than doing a collab? I got one person doing a bass line, some else does the rhythm guitar (2 two tracks, another lays down a killer keyboard track, yet another uses their gr-55 to lay down some violin and horns, then her I come to lay down my solo... The ONLY thing different in my scenario is that although my contribution is the same in both, only one of them used members to do it all. Guess which one isn't allowed to post with the others?

Quote from: BluesberryTo take a backer off the internet, add a guitar solo over the top and post it is kind of like cheating in my opinion.  If a person wants to do a guitar based instrumental, then make the backer yourself.

Come on Bluesy! So now you are the music police? Now, YOU get to decide what is worthy or not? Use union workers or stay away. Nice... (my example scenario above applies)

Reading 64g's newest post it seems to me that I was not the only one who thought that the "general" board was not intended to be the main board. Though, after reading 64g's answer, greatly clearing it up, I am left wondering why the DIY boards are even necessary then? It just adds a new division I hadn't thought of... Those who agree with the "spirit of songcrafters", and those who do not. After all... The goal is that everyone here would go along with the "spirit of songcrafters". This is the goal that the powers that be wish to achieve for the site. It is this ideal that would cause the DIY board to then be the main board. It is clear that it is the hope of the elite that everyone should think this way.

Sorry if I am being an ass, but I am frustrated that no one else sees it.

Member made backer + my guitar solo = worthy
Professional, and legal, backer + my guitar solo = unworthy
(though, MY contribution was the same for either case)
"Sure, I can just ignore the posts of those I deem unworthy, but I cannot abide by having their one instrument playing backers, on the same board as my music! What if they knock my post off the main page?? *gasp*"

Okay... I guess I wasn't done.

Quote from: FuzzFace on June 16, 2011, 11:24:38 AMI do not disagree with your proposed structure or philosophy.

But I have to ask "What if we just left it as is?"

It's a fair question, and leaving it as-is is certainly a possibility. But I think the proposed changes will make the site better for everyone. Obviously, we can't please everyone and there will always be a few people who want something different. But the proposed changes are pretty minor and I find it hard to believe that anyone would think the current board structure is better than what we've proposed and we should just leave it as it is. Certainly the fans of backing tracks wouldn't want to leave it as is. With the current board structure, the Backing Track Jams board is seldom visited by anyone. But with the new structure, backing track jams can be posted in the main board where they'll get more attention. Why would any backing track fan be opposed to that? Sure, a few may want more. But they have to admit that the proposed structure is much better for them than the current structure.

QuoteIs there something that is not working well or otherwise interfering with the functioning of the site?

Yes. There are a number of minor issues that we felt needed improvement.

1) We've always believed that the spirit of Songcrafters is about creating our own music or collaborating with other members. And we've always felt that that was the purpose of the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards. But there has been an increasing number of posts in those boards which included non-member performances. We'd like to move those posts to another board but currently there is no suitable board for them. Creating the General board gives us a place for anything that includes non-member performances. Also, although it has always been our feeling that the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards are for member-only recordings, we've never actually stated that. So I thought I'd take this opportunity to clearly state what the philosophy and direction of Songcrafters is, and rename the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards so that everyone knows they are only for member performances.

2) The Backing Track Jams board has always been a problem because nobody visits it and the backing track fans feel like outcasts. That was never the intention and in hindsight I think that creating a separate board just for backing track jams was a mistake. But we still don't want backing track jams in the same board as the songs that are performed entirely by members. So I thought, why not treat the DIY boards as the exception rather than the backing tracks. That way, they're separate from everything else and they can truly reflect the spirit of Songcrafters. And at the same time, the backing track jams are no longer alone. They're in the main board with lots of other types of posts, so they'll get a lot more attention.

3) I think that a lot of people (especially new members) don't really get what the Collaborations board is for, and it's not getting a great deal of activity (only 10 new topics last month, and 7 so far this month). So I thought that renaming it to Work in Progress might make its purpose clearer. At the same time, it gives us a place to move the lyrics posts and 'pre-release' mixes of songs (see next two points).

4) A lot of topics are getting multiple posts due to remixes, etc. Unfortunately, all of these versions of the song get included in all of the jukeboxes, which makes them messy and confusing. Ultimately, the song database feature I'm working on will solve this problem but I don't know when that will be finished. So, in the meantime, I thought that putting some of the alternate mixes in the Work in Progress board (particularly those where it's known that the song's not finished) would reduce the number of song repetitions in the jukeboxes.

5) The Lyrics board and the Songcrafter Tributes board have had very little activity, so we thought we should merge them into other boards.

QuoteWill re-organizing improve our Songcrafters experience?

For most members, yes. Certainly, it will be improved for people who use backing tracks because their posts will now be allowed in the main board where they'll get more attention. It will also be improved for the vast majority of members who share our view of the spirit of Songcrafters since the DIY boards will only include songs that reflect that spirit. But you can't please all of the people all of the time, so there are bound to be a few who will resist the changes. That's unfortunate but inevitable.

You know, when Pedro proposed changes to the site a couple of years ago, a lot of us resisted, including me to some extent. I thought some of his ideas were wrong for the site and I wanted him to leave it as it was. But, looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I think he did the right thing and Songcrafters is a much better site now because of his changes. Sometimes you just have to go with changes and hope that they work out for the best. Quite often they do, despite our reservations.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 16, 2011, 12:42:44 PMWhat real reason is there to separate Originals from Covers?

Years ago, there was a very lengthy discussion about how best to organise the boards and it became clear that many of our members aren't big fans of covers and would rather listen to original songs most of the time. It also became clear that, due to the site's increasing popularity, it was becoming impossible for most members to read all of the posts. There are just too many. So it was suggested that song posts be divided into several boards so that members could just listen to the ones that interested them most and for which time allowed. I think it has worked out great for the separate Original Songs and Cover Songs boards. They each have a great deal of activity.

QuoteMeaning no offense to anyone... But I do think that making the Originals and Covers for "Member Performed Only" is quite frankly pretentious and a tad "Big Brother". Now I can't post stuff I've worked on with other musicians unless they are members here?

Of course you can still post songs you've worked on with non-members! It's not a question of what you can post. It's a question of where to post it.

QuoteHow can we seclude members who only play one instrument?

No one is being secluded. All members are welcome to post in the General board.

The vast majority of our members are primarily guitarists. If guitar is the only instrument you play, you're in luck because the BR series recorders were designed with you in mind. They include a programmable drum machine so that you can easily add drums to your songs. Most of them include a bass simulator effect so that you can record a bass track using your regular 6-string guitar. If your BR doesn't have a bass simulator, you can use Audacity to achieve the same thing. I've described how to do this in the past but would be happy to repeat it for anyone who wants help. So, you've got bass, drums, rhythm guitar and lead guitar. The only thing missing for most rock music is vocals. If you're not a singer, there are at least two excellent ways to solve that. You can ask one of our members to add vocals for you, or you can make your song an instrumental. I've posted several instrumentals here. FenderBender has posted some excellent instrumentals. So has antisocialworker and several other members. There's nothing wrong with an instrumental, so not being able to sing needn't be an excuse to use backing tracks. Any guitarist can create interesting rock music using only his guitar and his BR.

Of course, not everyone wants to play rock music. If you want to play big band jazz, for example, then bass, drums, and guitar is not enough. But if you wanted to play big band jazz, I'd think you'd have taken up trumpet or trombone instead of the guitar.

Also, modern keyboards can emulate almost any instrument, can be inexpensive, and don't require a great deal of skill to play simple melodies or chord progressions. So anyone can use a keyboard to make layered, multi-instrument recordings on their BR. Backing tracks are not required to accomplish this.

QuoteThough I would hope members get comfortable enough to collab with other members, we cannot force them to work with others.

We're not trying to force anyone to do anything. We'd like to encourage all of our members to create their own music or collaborate with other members. But we're not insisting on it. Members are still welcome to use backing tracks, loops, and midi files in their recordings and post them in the General board.

QuotePerhaps some new Message Icons:
OG = Original
CV = Covers
BT = Backing Track

Naa. That assumes that all song posts would go in a single board and we don't want that. Besides, nobody would set their message icon and that job would fall to the admin team. We've got enough to do already, thank you very much.

QuotePerhaps Challenges can have it's own board. It used to be pretty popular here until the boards were changed to relegate those to the ether.

It seems to me that the initial challenge would be a text message, so it should go in the General Discussion board. The song post responses to that challenge would then go in whichever board is most suitable. If a member's response to the challenge is a recording he made himself or with other members, then he can post it in one of the DIY boards. If he chooses to use a backing track, loop, or midi file, or collaborates with a non-member, then he can post his response in the General board. I don't see a need for a separate Challenges board but it's a possibility we can consider. What we've learned from past experience is that making a separate board for something that's not very popular can be a failure because nobody wants to visit that board. So maybe handling challenges the way I've described above would be best.

QuoteAs for Collaborations. I too believe it is an important part of this community. However, "Work In Progress" just doesn't sound right. I think it is too vague. It sounds like a place you would post to get feedback on something you are currently working on, not where you would go to find collabs. I would like to suggest something like "Help Wanted". It's short and clear and obvious that you wouldn't post the final result in this location.

If people don't like the name "Work in Progress", we'll consider alternative suggestions that anyone would like to make. "Help Wanted" isn't bad, but I have a fear that newbies will think that's the place to post tech questions, etc. Yes, I know it's under Post Your Work but newbies might not understand the significance of that. Also, I'd like a name that's general enough to allow us to move lyrics there and 'pre-release' mixes of songs.

Quote2) The Backing Track Jams board has always been a problem because nobody visits it and the backing track fans feel like outcasts. That was never the intention and in hindsight I think that creating a separate board just for backing track jams was a mistake. But we still don't want backing track jams in the same board as the songs that are performed entirely by members. So I thought, why not treat the DIY boards as the exception rather than the backing tracks. That way, they're separate from everything else and they can truly reflect the spirit of Songcrafters. And at the same time, the backing track jams are no longer alone. They're in the main board with lots of other types of posts, so they'll get a lot more attention.

I really don't think it was a mistake, and certainly nothing for you or the rest of the staff to feel guilty about. Backers are clearly frowned upon by the moral majority, the comments (or lack of) don't lie.

With that said, I think there's too much debate regarding backing tracks, as they are not the focus of the minor changes. It's quite clear that backers and DIY will not mix, therefore Dave should be happy, he won't get bumped off the main page. Backers will still have a place to be posted, and may actually receive a comment that wasn't sought after via PM (that's how I got my comments, and yes I'm ashamed I had to resort to it).

I had a really long dissertation type out, which may have contained some pointed comments, but I let it ride for an hour or 2 and decided that it wasn't necessary.

In a nutshell the proposed changes are clearly advantageous or have no ill effect. 

on a side note, I don't even think the google spiders go to the backing track boards... LOL

i love singing karaoke over backing tracks and feel a bit left out,instead of a backing track board can we not call it karaoke.

one section for singers
and one for guitars.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 17, 2011, 06:16:12 AMTo take a backer off the internet, add a guitar solo over the top and post it is kind of like cheating in my opinion.  If a person wants to do a guitar based instrumental, then make the backer yourself.  We have all the technology and tools we need to make our own backers, why use backers at all when you are trying to create a piece of music.  I love hearing instrumental music, especially guitar based.  I am less interested in listening to somebody soloing over a backer, the same backer that i have heard 100's of times before.  Why use a backer at all in these cases, create something from scratch.

I think that Bluesberry has hit the point square on the head (in a round about kind of way.) There are a lot more people out there that make their living as a musician playing an instrument than writing songs. Most musicians do both to some degree or other. A well crafted guitar line in a song can be as valuable or more valuable as the song itself. All those classic rock riffs that let us remember an average song otherwise would be an example.

BUT, it seems that the point of this site is to be primarily songwriting. Yes it's a home recording site and a everything else you can think of dealing with music site to some degree. But by emphasizing MEMBER ONLY submissions, and segregating backing tracks and songs not made 100% by members, there is a change.

I am not sure I like that idea. But that being said, I do think the new organization, if it had been here when I joined, would be preferable to the organization we have now. So if the choice is stay the same or go to the submitted changes, I vote (not that we need votes or anything) to make the changes. As I've implied, I'd like to see a few changes to the changes being implemented, but I'm pretty confident that with the community here we will work through any problems. I am more than sure that, if problems arise, the admin staff will address issues in the future.

-- As far as board names. The only thing I don't like about the current board is clicking on general and then clicking on general again. A board name like 'free for all' or 'open submission' or 'players lounge' or 'The songcrafters lounge' or any one of many other names would work much better than general discussion or general songs or whatever. 
    And while I kind of poked fun of the MEMBERS ONLY idea, spelling it out in the forums might not be a bad idea. (maybe remove the 'only.') I like DIY as well.

oh and while I'm at it (RAMBLE ON! (drums)) - I know it's been mentioned that songs drop off the list faster if it is on one board. But I generally read, or at lest peruse, the entire list. So instead of having 10 or 15 headings make it 25 or 30 or even 50 and I will much more likely see everything on the front page. Yes at 50 I might not hit the bottom few, but if you had 50 and the top 40 were commented on in the past 2 days I would scan and or click on most of them. My suggestion at being able to sort songs would be a handy way to implement it as well.

okay, done rambling (drum solo ends)

I think it's fair to say members personal tastes will set the trends to what is most viewed or listened to overall. While some guys on here try and listen and comment on everything I would say I'm a bit lazy and pick out the originals or covers that might appeal to me. Backing tracks might not be my thing so I havent even checked them out yet...sorry.

Could an extra festival topic run alongside the other two which might promote the lesser visited boards? Not sure exactly how that would work, twas just an idea?

I like the term 'free for all' as a general board name too!

I know what this discussion needs.......more cowbell...........keep on rocking in the free world everybody........great discussion going on.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKV3iCOlOMw

Quote from: chapperz66 on June 16, 2011, 01:21:08 PMI share Sai's concern over discouraging posting of music involving non-members.  The majority of my postings (virtually all of the reasonable ones!) have been False Prophet colaborations involving one luddite non-internet member, as well as Nick (Nightcaller) and myself.  It would be a shame for Nick and I to have to stop posting these and getting the group's valued feedback.

Although we'd like to encourage our members to create their own music or work with other members, that doesn't mean that we want to discourage members from posting their work with non-members. You're quite welcome to continue posting your False Prophet collaborations in the General board, as are other members who are in bands containing non-members (there are quite a few of them actually, so you won't be alone).

I'm hoping that the General board will get enough activity that people will want to visit it regularly and comment on the posts. It had occurred to me that we could make a separate board for band posts. I think we have enough bands here that such a board could be quite successful. The problem with that idea is that it would leave the General board with mainly just backing tracks, loops, and midi files and it wouldn't get a lot more visitors than the current Backing Track Jams board does. So I think it's best to include bands in the General board for now. That will help a great deal to make the General board popular enough to be worthwhile.

If that third member of False Prophet ever gets on the internet and you can convince him to become a member of Songcrafters, then you'll be quite welcome to post your band's songs in the DIY boards. But until then, you can post them in the General board. Who knows, the band posts might even get more attention in the General board than they currently do because they won't be competing with all of the DIY posts. And having all of the band posts together in one place might get more members interested in them.

QuoteAlthough I use a Boss recorder, personally I would be inclined to encourage any home recording equipment as long as equipment used is admitted to.  We wouldn't want people using a full Protools set up yet claiming to only use a micro BR! 

In fact, now I think about it, both my main keyboards have 16-track midi recorders built in.  I mainly use the BR for audio recording my guitars and keyboard submixes, then final mix/mastering.  But I normally state this when posting a piece and always give details when questioned.  I can't see that this is a problem?

I mostly agree with you but I want to make a distinction between what's allowed and what's encouraged. As I mentioned in another of my posts in this topic, I think songs created with any multitrack recorder or software DAW will always be allowed here. I have no desire to change that. However, most of our members are BR users and always have been. But we stopped labelling the site as a Boss Users forum when we changed from BossBR.net to Songcrafters.org. I'm just starting to have doubts about that. I think we're still a Boss users site, we're just not admitting it publicly anymore. When people come here for the first time, there's no obvious clue that this would be a good place to look for information and help on Boss recorders. They'll only realise that if they take the time to read through a sufficient number of topics. Many of our members found this site when they bought a BR and Googled for help on it. I just wonder if we should admit that we're a Boss users site and make that more obvious so that new Boss users will find us. But whether we do or not, I think we'll always welcome home recording enthusiasts, regardless of which brands of hardware and software they happen to use.

And I don't have a problem with you using your keyboard's midi sequencer instead of an audio recorder. My Yamaha keyboard also has a 16-channel sequencer built-in and I use it all the time. It saves me from having to use as many tracks on my BR, and the end result is the same when everything's mixed. So please feel free to continue using the sequencers. And thanks for stating details like that in your posts. I always find it interesting to learn as much as possible about how people are making their recordings. It's much better to give details than to just say "Here's my new song. Tell me what you think" (which happens more often than I'd like).

yeah ... we should have a board for cowbell music !!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hCJa3TJbs

Music is about expression, not about assigning value. THAT is what I thought this community was about. Not whether or not someone used members to create their music. If that is what the "spirit of songcrafters" is, then you can keep it. That's the biggest thing that bothered me. I don't think you see how condescending that is. By saying that one group is the "spirit of songcrafters" you are inferring that the others are NOT.

My new suggestion is to make it as simple as possible, as it is completely irrelevant whether or not all parts were done by members or not. The spirit of this community is in the support we give to each other.

General Discussion
     General
     Introduce Yourself
     Just for Laughs

Post Your Work
     Originals
     Covers
     Musicians Wanted

In The Studio
     Songwriting
     Instruments
     Multitrack Recorders
     Software
     Other

There are two types of BTs.
BTs that are of known songs, which you then add a track of yourself playing to complete the song, is a Cover...
BTs that are created to be used for the purpose of creating unique and very Original compositions... Such as those used in most of the challenges. Gotten legally from online contests, Kings of the Blues, etc.
These can be classified as either Originals or Covers.

BTW... This site's focus has always been Home Recording, first openly Boss Recorders, then maybe not so openly. Songwriting and original compositions was never the primary focus, no matter how much some would like to think it is. 

not quite cowbells


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VskVFchQp-4

youhave to wait for the bells in this one


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oGkQ3a2B_8

Saij, You make strong arguments for what you believe in, I admire that.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 04:15:47 PMSongwriting and original compositions was never the primary focus, no matter how much some would like to think it is.  

I am one of the ones that you are referring to here, I would like to think the primary focus of this site is songwriting and original compositions.  But that comes from my experience, so it is the way I see it.  From the moment I got my Boss microBR and then found this site, the very first thing I did was write, compose, record an original song, it was my first thing posted on here.  I found this site, discovered Greeny and all his wonderful songs, and said to myself, "I wonder if I can do that".  I had never written a song before in my life, only ever noodled about on my guitar to backers and such.  From that point on I have had that as my focus, songwriting, original compositions, getting better and better at playing and recording so I could get better and better at writing original songs.  That is the rose-colored glasses I wear when I view this site, I always see the focus on songwriting and recording original songs/compositions as the primary goal here.  We all see things the way we do.  My way is not the best, or the only way, it is just how I see things.

Damn near every one of us older members found this site looking for some level of tech support on a BR. The focus may have changed TO song writing and original compositions, but that is a change in the philosophy of the site. Look at the name changes in the site???????

If this were a songwriting focused community I would have never joined, nor racked up however many posts I have. I have no interest in writing songs. Each member can interpret the site for what they want. Hell, look at migs, he's never posted a single song, yet is a contributing member, and rather fun to have around.

What the fuck is the point in putting a label on a community that's been around for 3 name changes in as many years? We are simply a community of like minded individuals that enjoy music, and enjoy each others presence.

More importantly, what does that label have to do with restructuring the boards? Try to at least stay focused on the subject of the thread instead of just arguing just to argue.

QuoteTry to at least stay focused on the subject of the thread instead of just arguing just to argue.

Tony, we are not just arguing just to argue, we are discussing exactly what is the nature of this site.  Here is the very first sentance from the original thread...............

QuoteFor the past two weeks, the admin team has been discussing the philosophy and direction we want for Songcrafters, and how we can reorganize the boards to clarify and emphasize that philosophy/direction.

I thought Saij and I (if that is who you were referring to) were focused on the subject of the thread.  We are discussing what is the philosophy and direction we want for Songcrafters, just as 64G asked.  I thought we were having a good thoughtful discussion here.  I don't understand your frustration.  Has anybody said anything off topic yet, I don't see it (maybe the cowbell part was having a little fun).  This is a very important discussion that will ultimately affect everyone of us on this site.  Lets hear everyone's opinion.  

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 04:15:47 PMBTW... This site's focus has always been Home Recording, first openly Boss Recorders, then maybe not so openly. Songwriting and original compositions was never the primary focus, no matter how much some would like to think it is.  

I've been sympathetic to Sai's point of view in this thread. And I agree the focus in our discussions and in encouragement has been home recording. BUT, when we, as a community, relegate backing tracks and guitar added recordings to secondary status (even well meaning or with sound legal practice) and we encourage the DIY to be only members and only if you play all the instruments, it becomes closer and closer to a songwriting site. I know it's not really. I'm probably overstating it a lot. The covers board seems to get a lot of traffic. I merely meant to say the emphasis is shifting more in that direction, at least from my point of view. But then again I'm terrible at visiting the covers board. Probably because I don't post many. I've kind of lost my passion for posting music at all this year. I think song a week kinda ruined me in a way. Of course I wrote 31 songs in February, just didn't feel most of them were worth sharing. *ponder*

I actually like the fact that this here site is a hotbed of Boss knowledge. But then I use a Boss recorder. And like Tony W I came here through my search for help on Boss recorders. I definitely think it should somehow be known that this community is knowledgeable with the Boss brand.

All that being said, I still think the changes will work. It's up to us as users to make sure the place stays as welcoming and inclusive (or more so) as it has in the past. And hearing 64's explanations definitely eases most of my concerns. But it doesn't eliminate them.

Still happy to be here.

Me dumbfounded! I`m starting to drink now.

I`ll come back to this thread when i get some time and some glasses ;D

Okay this is just all my fault for leaving the site for a week but that won`t end for me in my busy life right now.

I just wanna say i`m in agreeance with the agreeance and all the disagreeance.

Why not just try a demo or simulation and see how it works and go from there.

The one thing that i`m grateful for is just to make and post songs and for whatever category it goes i won`t complain.

Chilean red.

it makes my day pass sweetly.

QuoteThe spirit of this community is in the support we give to each other.

Honestly, that's how I've always felt, and don't think it could be stated in a better way. That is the biggest draw to this site, plain and simple.

Look at the home page, Welcome Friends... Followed by Geir's lovely song about friends. Who could ask for a better mantra.

You wonder why I'm frustrated? Dave you're contradicting yourself in this very thread. It certainly appears you're arguing just to argue.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 16, 2011, 01:53:43 PM]I agree with this.  The way I see it this site is all about "Home Recording", not specific to what the recording is done on, but done in a home studio environment.  Recording on Tascam or Boss or any interface that links to a computer DAW (as the latest BOSS machines do) doesn't matter.  What matters is that we are all Home recording folks, not professionals, using what ever tools we can afford to get good quality recordings for our pleasure and sharing with our friends on this site and with friends in the non-cyber world. 

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 17, 2011, 04:26:00 PMI would like to think the primary focus of this site is songwriting and original compositions.  But that comes from my experience, so it is the way I see it. 

You've focused in on Sai, for whatever reason. I can't stress enough to look at the good of the community, and focus in on the board restructure.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 17, 2011, 04:26:00 PMSaij, You make strong arguments for what you believe in, I admire that.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 04:15:47 PMSongwriting and original compositions was never the primary focus, no matter how much some would like to think it is.  

I am one of the ones that you are referring to here, I would like to think the primary focus of this site is songwriting and original compositions.  But that comes from my experience, so it is the way I see it.  From the moment I got my Boss microBR and then found this site, the very first thing I did was write, compose, record an original song, it was my first thing posted on here.  I found this site, discovered Greeny and all his wonderful songs, and said to myself, "I wonder if I can do that".  I had never written a song before in my life, only ever noodled about on my guitar to backers and such.  From that point on I have had that as my focus, songwriting, original compositions, getting better and better at playing and recording so I could get better and better at writing original songs.  That is the rose-colored glasses I wear when I view this site, I always see the focus on songwriting and recording original songs/compositions as the primary goal here.  We all see things the way we do.  My way is not the best, or the only way, it is just how I see things.

For the most part, I don't even entirely disagree with you. My goal too is to do originals. To continue getting better and writing music. But even I see that we all found this place due to wanting to learn how to record and use our shiny little boxes. It still gives no justification in how some view the others here. I will not give myself a boost at the cost of others here. I would be just fine never listening to a country western song for as long as I lived... I still would not advocate moving them to another board just so that they didn't interfere with what I perceive to be MY goal here.  

I feel it IS tied into the restructuring because by allowing it to stay segregated for some arbitrary reason, little will change. BTW... My wife says I DO argue just for the sake of arguing.  :-\ ;) I told her that people losing the argument usually think that.  ;D

I didn't want to write all this out, but I feel it may be the only thing to accurately explain my thinking. Sorry for being tedious.  ::)

Game Theory principles track what we know about the environment, and introduce what we know about how these factors affect this environment. If you have enough information about the goal, those involved, and the possible outcomes, you can accurately assess the most likely outcomes when combining these factors.

First, the factors in question are a General Board and a DIY Board.
What we know... Boards with similar enough aspects will not have the same level of activity. We know this by seeing what happened to the previous changes that separated the boards in the first place.
Given that, we know that the only realistic outcomes are:
1. The DIY are hugely successful, thus relegating the General Board to the same status of low activity some board are currently in.
2. The DIY are a failure, thus causing the General Boards to be the main successful board and making the DIY unnecessary.

If 1 is the outcome, we have changed nothing
If 2 is the outcome, we have alienated yet another group of members and have made the DIY unnecessary (which is the prediction in the first place)

The only way to fix this, is to make the change that stands a greater chance of benefiting the most members.
Given that the very nature, and rules, make DIY unusable as an only choice, we are left with one... A General Board whose very nature is to benefit the most members.

The whole "spirit on songcrafters" becomes nothing more than a factor added for the sole purpose of influencing  other factors. A manipulating force who's sole focus is to tweak the factors in a particular way. We used to call this "The Unknown". When you couldn't find a real world reason to change factors to cause particular outcomes, the Unknown would do so without explanation.  ??? ??? ???

This is how I came to the conclusion that the DIY is unnecessary and that the way it was illustrated was ill conceived... though it is understood that it may not have MEANT to be condescending.

Whoa! Okay, now it was my turn to be pretentious. But it was the only way I could think of to accurately reflect what I was thinking and how I view the situation.  

QuoteChilean red.

it makes my day pass sweetly.

and a pepperami yum yum

Wow Sai. That was compelling. I was not really in favor of rejoining the boards completely. Sure I would like to see backers get a little more attention, and I have felt it was relatively unfair that loops and samples were allowed on the upper level boards for various reasons.....

With that said, from a logical standpoint, I really can't argue the points you've made in the above post. It's really intriguing, I'm rarely at a loss for words.

hw about adding a rule in covers and originals that states that for every song you post, you must comment on 2-4 songs by other people.

I'm guilty of not contributing back to the site with critiques.  I think a rule like this would prevent posts with 0 replies, and it would give everyone an equal chance.

^ I've tried something similar Rich. I've sent PM's to people who post songs yet do not provide feedback for others (on a different forum). Sadly, some people are fairly self-serving and will not provide others with the same courtesy they come to expect.

Maybe I'll try a wall of shame next....

^ The only other problem with trying to make people do it, is that the majority with either say "fuck it" and stop posting, or they will only comment with the smallest amount of feedback they can get away with. :/

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 05:53:15 PMYou've focused in on Sai, for whatever reason. I can't stress enough to look at the good of the community, and focus in on the board restructure.

I thought I was having a discussion with Sai........but I guess it is not allowed.......I am not to respond directly to other members, or engage in back and forth posts.............sorry Sai, Tony says I can't respond to any of your posts from now on for the good of the community...............damn, and I had a doozy all typed out in response to the incredibly interesting game theory thread..........OK, well lets be fair then, treat all the same , new forum rule folks...................no more posts responding to other members posts, this is for the good of the community.  I'll drink to that...............hic...........damn, I already broke the rule, I responded to Tony here..............I guess I'll drink to that also..........cheers.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 17, 2011, 06:30:42 PM

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 05:53:15 PMYou've focused in on Sai, for whatever reason. I can't stress enough to look at the good of the community, and focus in on the board restructure.

I thought I was having a discussion with Sai........but I guess it is not allowed.......I am not to respond directly to other members, or engage in back and forth posts.............sorry Sai, Tony says I can't respond to any of your posts from now on for the good of the community...............damn, and I had a doozy all typed out in response to the incredibly interesting game theory thread..........OK, well lets be fair then, treat all the same , new forum rule folks...................no more posts responding to other members posts, this is for the good of the community.  I'll drink to that...............hic...........damn, I already broke the rule, I responded to Tony here..............I guess I'll drink to that also..........cheers.

Come on! Play nice ;)

I am really interested in your reply :/

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 06:15:58 PM^ I've tried something similar Rich. I've sent PM's to people who post songs yet do not provide feedback for others (on a different forum). Sadly, some people are fairly self-serving and will not provide others with the same courtesy they come to expect.

Maybe I'll try a wall of shame next....

The following is a friendly :) response providing another perspective to the point made above.   I have been a member of this forum for a while but as you see by my post count, I don't post that often.  I am probably in the largest group of members.

I think you are wrong if you think that everyone who joins a forum like this has the same level of commitment and expectation that you have.  If you want to set up a site for a handful of friends then fine.  But don't expect me to follow your fussy rules. If I had time to listen and comment on all the material posted here then I could not do my job or spend time with my familiy or write music. If we are running a forum that allows us all the freedom to express our creativity then lets just do that. I'm glad when people comment on the music I post but there is no way that I expect it. Either should you.

You guys are over-thinking this whole thing.  This seems to happen every six months.  It is really boring.

Ian

Ian, I apologize, as I should not have posted that. I was poking fun at one of the guys active in this thread, and didn't consider the negative impact of that statement overall.

It was without a doubt a completely ignorant thing to type and put up here, and I can't stress enough that I was totally inappropriate and out of line.

I sincerely apologize to all who read that.

Quote from: IanR on June 17, 2011, 06:58:46 PM

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 06:15:58 PM^ I've tried something similar Rich. I've sent PM's to people who post songs yet do not provide feedback for others (on a different forum). Sadly, some people are fairly self-serving and will not provide others with the same courtesy they come to expect.

Maybe I'll try a wall of shame next....

The following is a friendly :) response providing another perspective to the point made above.   I have been a member of this forum for a while but as you see by my post count, I don't post that often.  I am probably in the largest group of members.

I think you are wrong if you think that everyone who joins a forum like this has the same level of commitment and expectation that you have.  If you want to set up a site for a handful of friends then fine.  But don't expect me to follow your fussy rules. If I had time to listen and comment on all the material posted here then I could not do my job or spend time with my familiy or write music. If we are running a forum that allows us all the freedom to express our creativity then lets just do that. I'm glad when people comment on the music I post but there is no way that I expect it. Either should you.

You guys are over-thinking this whole thing.  This seems to happen every six months.  It is really boring.

Ian

A typical song is what...3 minutes....4 minutes?  It takes you how long to post up a song and replies.....a minute or two?

so say the minimum is at least 2 responses for every song you post.  That is i'd say around 8-10 minutes.  You are basically saying that you do not have a mere 8-10 minutes to give, to others who share the same passion as you do?

It's not like you are posting a song every hour, or every day.  So say you post 1 song a week.  You are telling me that you can't spare 10 minutes a week?  Are you seriously that busy?  I doubt it.  I can't imagine anyone being that busy.

Quote from: rich2k4 on June 17, 2011, 07:07:51 PM

Quote from: IanR on June 17, 2011, 06:58:46 PM

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 06:15:58 PM^ I've tried something similar Rich. I've sent PM's to people who post songs yet do not provide feedback for others (on a different forum). Sadly, some people are fairly self-serving and will not provide others with the same courtesy they come to expect.

Maybe I'll try a wall of shame next....

The following is a friendly :) response providing another perspective to the point made above.   I have been a member of this forum for a while but as you see by my post count, I don't post that often.  I am probably in the largest group of members.

I think you are wrong if you think that everyone who joins a forum like this has the same level of commitment and expectation that you have.  If you want to set up a site for a handful of friends then fine.  But don't expect me to follow your fussy rules. If I had time to listen and comment on all the material posted here then I could not do my job or spend time with my familiy or write music. If we are running a forum that allows us all the freedom to express our creativity then lets just do that. I'm glad when people comment on the music I post but there is no way that I expect it. Either should you.

You guys are over-thinking this whole thing.  This seems to happen every six months.  It is really boring.

Ian

A typical song is what...3 minutes....4 minutes?  It takes you how long to post up a song and replies.....a minute or two?

so say the minimum is at least 2 responses for every song you post.  That is i'd say around 8-10 minutes.  You are basically saying that you do not have a mere 8-10 minutes to give, to others who share the same passion as you do?

It's not like you are posting a song every hour, or every day.  So say you post 1 song a week.  You are telling me that you can't spare 10 minutes a week?  Are you seriously that busy?  I doubt it.  I can't imagine anyone being that busy.

Who keeps count?

Are you going to become my feedback auditor?

What I was saying is that I use this site for a reason.  It may not be the same reason you have.  So lay off and don't impose your rules on me.

OK?

Ian

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 17, 2011, 06:30:42 PM

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 05:53:15 PMYou've focused in on Sai, for whatever reason. I can't stress enough to look at the good of the community, and focus in on the board restructure.

I thought I was having a discussion with Sai........but I guess it is not allowed.......I am not to respond directly to other members, or engage in back and forth posts.............sorry Sai, Tony says I can't respond to any of your posts from now on for the good of the community...............damn, and I had a doozy all typed out in response to the incredibly interesting game theory thread..........OK, well lets be fair then, treat all the same , new forum rule folks...................no more posts responding to other members posts, this is for the good of the community.  I'll drink to that...............hic...........damn, I already broke the rule, I responded to Tony here..............I guess I'll drink to that also..........cheers.

Initially I wanted to respond indignantly, but the truth is, I never meant to offend you Dave, and for that I sincerely apologize as well. You're one of my heroes on the site. That'll never change.

Quote from: IanR on June 17, 2011, 07:12:13 PMWhat I was saying is that I use this site for a reason.  It may not be the same reason you have.  

I think this is a very good point being made, each of us comes here for our own reasons, reasons that are different than other members.  We have been having a discussion here all day on this, and everybody sees this site slightly differently, comes for different reasons, interacts while here in different ways.  We will never all completely agree with each other, because we are all unique individuals.  I come here for the original songwriting primarily, secondly for interesting covers and all the festivals we have, thirdly for recording tips and discussion, and finally for the good banter and interesting discussions we have.  Other folks come here for completely different reasons.  Its what makes it all go around.

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 07:16:25 PMInitially I wanted to respond indignantly, but the truth is, I never meant to offend you Dave, and for that I sincerely apologize as well. You're one of my heroes on the site. That'll never change.

I think we are having a good lively discussion here, and it is heated at times, and I take no offense at what you posted Tony, I was just trying to have a bit of fun, in my quirky way.  I sincerely hope you took no offense in my post either.

and the ultimate thing is we get out of this site what we put in to it.  We put a little in, we get a little back, we put a lot in, and it rewards us with a lot back.  I have been rewarded in a significant way by being a member of this site.  The most important site I visit, the only one that really matters to me in the long run......what I mean by that is that If I had to choose, and could only visit one internet site from now on, this site would be my choice.............sad? maybe, I am a little pathetic, maybe, but this site has had such a huge impact on my musical life that it is the top site for me...............and all the beer tonight is making me sentimental..............long live songcrafters..........god bless you one and all..............

Quote from: T.C. Elliott on June 16, 2011, 05:26:18 PMI like less boards. I would go so far as to say combining Covers and Originals into one board would help a lot. I very seldom go to the covers board. I'm not sure why, honestly. But the Originals board I frequent at least every other day. (Although I've been remiss in my commenting, which I'm suitably ashamed of.)

I'm not sure about combining Originals and Covers into a single board. Like I said in another post, I think there are quite a few members who aren't too crazy about covers. And even those members who like both covers and originals are bound to like one a bit more than the other. Having them in two separate boards allows people to get the most out of their limited time available to listen to song posts and read comments. For example, if someone prefers originals, they can start with that board and see how far they get. If they get through all of the new messages there and still have some time left, they might go to the covers board and start listening to some posts there and reading the comments. But if all of the posts were combined into a single board, they wouldn't have that option and might miss out on some originals further down the page that they didn't have time to get to because they were listening to some covers.

For the record, I'm not one of those members who doesn't like covers. I love covers. That's all I've posted here because my few songwriting attempts were rubbish and not worth posting. But I very much enjoy listening to other members' original songs too.

For my own personal site usage, the organization of the boards doesn't matter because I always read posts via the "All Unread Topics" link which shows a mix of topics from all of the boards. But I also realize that a lot of our members don't have time to read every post, so some organization of posts into separate boards is necessary to allow them to choose what they want to listen to and read.

QuoteIs it okay if I submit members only in general instead of DIY?

Certainly. Although I hope that most members will choose to post their DIY songs in the DIY boards. But we won't insist on it. If any members choose to post all of their songs in the General board, that's fine.

QuoteWould it get moved if I did?

No. Not unless you ask us to move it because you accidentally posted in the wrong board or changed your mind.

QuoteIf I don't use a drum machine, but instead get a drum track from a friend in London does it qualify as DIY? What's the difference if I use a drum machine or a r.l. drummer a few thousand miles away?

If I use the built in Drum Machine on my 900 I can post in DIY. If I don't program the drum machine is it still DIY?

There are no restrictions on how you make your drum track except that it has to be legal. You can definitely use a real drummer (member or not) and we'd love to see more posts with real drummers. You can use the drum machine built into your recorder, a separate outboard machine, or a software sequencer such as Hydrogen, BR Rhythm Editor, or your favourite DAW. You can use drum loops chained together in your favourite DAW or whatever (as long as the loops are legal). You can load a midi file into your BR's drum machine, or into Hydrogen, BR Rhythm Editor, etc. You can use a backing track as long as it's just drums and it's legal. Feel free to use any of these techniques for your drums. If everything in the song apart from the drums is performed by yourself or another member, you can post it in the DIY boards, regardless of how the drum track was made.

Ideally, we'd love to hear people playing the drums themselves in their songs. But making that a requirement would be far too restictive. There aren't a lot of people here who play drums, and Boss includes a drum machine in their recorders for a good reason. So we felt that it was reasonable to allow people to make their drum tracks any way they can, as long as it's legal.

QuoteAs an alternative, why not have one board for finished music and have tags for what is 100% member certified and Covers and everything else? Then make a songs list that you can sort. Ie, not necessarily a separate board to post, but a heading you can click that lists all the songs that you can sort by post date/time, most recent comment, cover tags, or member name, or a bunch of things, really. (There are some sites that do a great job of this.)

That's a great idea. Unfortunately, the software this site runs on doesn't have any such tagging feature, so I'd have to spend a lot of time modifying the code to make this possible. That's not something I'd want to tackle right now because I've got a lot of other things I want to do to improve the site. But one of those things is the song database I mentioned earlier in this topic, and I could probably use that same database to keep track of paramaters such as original/cover, member/non-member, complete/incomplete, etc., then allow members to filter the topic lists based on those parameters. I can't promise anything right now but I'll definitely think about this some more while I'm working on the song database and see if I can work these parameters into it. The filtering will require a fair bit of programming, so I don't think you'll see these changes anytime soon but it's a definite possibility in the future.

QuoteIf I have backing vox from a friend in London (harmony vox on the chorus) does it negate it's DIY status?

If she's not a member, then yes. But you can post it in the General board instead.

QuoteWhat if I get her to sign up but she never posts a song or a message?

Technically, if she becomes a member, you can post it in DIY even if she never posts. However, don't you think it would be common courtesy for her to at least pop in once in a while and thank people for the comments on her work? That's one of the things I have against posts that use non-members. Our members take the time to listen to those posts and comment on them, but some of the musicians on the song will never be around to say thank you for those comments because they aren't even members. That doesn't seem right to me, so I'd prefer that collabs are with active members whenever possible. But that's not a requirement; it's just my opinion.

QuoteP.S. - Boss - I think highlighting the Boss information is a great idea, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it in such a manner that would (inadvertently) discourage another platform or cause them to feel less than welcome.

Exactly. I don't want to chase anyone away who doesn't use Boss. But I can't help thinking that we should maybe stop pretending that we support all recorders and DAWs equally. We never have and I doubt that we ever will. So maybe we should make it clearer to the first-time visitor that we're primarily a Boss site so that new Boss users will know that this is a good place for them to be. I'll need to discuss this further with the admin team at a later date (let's get these board changes finished first), but it's good to get some feedback on this. Thanks.

Can I please have a family membership??

Quote from: chapperz66 on June 16, 2011, 01:21:08 PMI share Sai's concern over discouraging posting of music involving non-members.  The majority of my postings (virtually all of the reasonable ones!) have been False Prophet colaborations involving one luddite non-internet member, as well as Nick (Nightcaller) and myself.  It would be a shame for Nick and I to have to stop posting these and getting the group's valued feedback.

Paul. While I was replying to T.C's questions just now, I realized that I failed to mention something in my reply to you which could be important. That is, drum tracks can be made any way you like, including with a drummer who's not a member. As long as everything else in the song is performed by a member, you can post it in the DIY board. So, if your "luddite non-internet" member happens to be the drummer, then you can post your False Prophet songs in the DIY boards because the drummer doesn't count and the other members of False Prophet are Songcrafters members. But if he's not the drummer, then you should post in the General board until he becomes a member of Songcrafters.

I hope that helps.

Quote from: IanR on June 16, 2011, 08:37:34 PMCrikey

I though we just finished the last redecorating.

I'm still not used to it and we are changing again.

I know that someone always has to pay for anarchy but I still lean towards less rules and more freedom.

None of these comments help you make a decision but I do want to say that there is an awful lot of fussing going on.

I think we need to have these discussions every now and then so that the admin team can get a good idea of how the majority of members feel about the site. We know that we'll never please everyone, but if we know what the majority wants, we can make slight improvements to the site that will please most members. Most things can be decided by the admin team without consulting the members. But sometimes it's good to get some reassurance that we're on the right track.

^ I can't help but want to mention Tangles Wires at this point. They are a staple in this community, yet I don't believe Sasha has an account. I feel its worth mentioning.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 05:55:22 PMGiven that, we know that the only realistic outcomes are:
1. The DIY are hugely successful, thus relegating the General Board to the same status of low activity some board are currently in.
2. The DIY are a failure, thus causing the General Boards to be the main successful board and making the DIY unnecessary.

If 1 is the outcome, we have changed nothing
If 2 is the outcome, we have alienated yet another group of members and have made the DIY unnecessary (which is the prediction in the first place)

Outcome 3: With the restructuring to lesser boards postings on the various boards begin to equal out. I know they'll never be equal, but they could be more in line with each other. I think that's the goal here. I honestly believe they will start to equal out with the suggested changes. I'm not sure how much. Maybe quite a bit (good) or maybe not much (more or less the same.)

Quote from: T.C. Elliott on June 17, 2011, 08:58:00 PMOutcome 3: With the restructuring to lesser boards postings on the various boards begin to equal out. I know they'll never be equal, but they could be more in line with each other. I think that's the goal here.

this is the same way I see it also, a leveling out of the three boards into equal importance.  The only way to know for sure is to try it.  

All I can say is, when Optimus Prime died, and they replaced key characters with a whole bunch of new ones, nothing was the same again.

* * *

That being said there should be a "Manifesto" tab on this site to communicate the vision of the site owners, so that newcomers can quickly judge for themselves whether to get in or get out.

how about a downloadable hologram that explains everything, looks good in a bikini and cooks a mean bacon and eggs, is that too much to ask.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 17, 2011, 09:05:56 PMhow about a downloadable hologram that explains everything, looks good in a bikini and cooks a mean bacon and eggs, is that too much to ask.

or makes house granola

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 17, 2011, 07:39:14 PM

QuoteAs an alternative, why not have one board for finished music and have tags for what is 100% member certified and Covers and everything else? Then make a songs list that you can sort. Ie, not necessarily a separate board to post, but a heading you can click that lists all the songs that you can sort by post date/time, most recent comment, cover tags, or member name, or a bunch of things, really. (There are some sites that do a great job of this.)

That's a great idea. Unfortunately, the software this site runs on doesn't have any such tagging feature, so I'd have to spend a lot of time modifying the code to make this possible.

How about a self tag? This might be more work than the alternative, but when posting a song you could have a checklist that the poster could select that would add a specific song to the database. Just thinking out loud here.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 17, 2011, 07:39:14 PM

QuoteIf I have backing vox from a friend in London (harmony vox on the chorus) does it negate it's DIY status?

If she's not a member, then yes. But you can post it in the General board instead.

I guess this is my main complaint, and I'll leave it be after this. If I write and record a song and hire a backup singer to do harmony vox, isn't it still my creative vision and my song? If I use a plug in or effect and change my male voice to a female sounding voice (I've actually heard this done, although not 100% convincingly) it's okay to post in DIY, but if I have a friend come in and sing half of four lines in the chorus it isn't. If I use a synth that I program it's DIY, but if someone else hits the button after I've programmed it, it isn't.

After typing that out I've pretty much convinced myself to your point of view. I see it, I understand it. I'm not 100% with it, but I'm a lot closer after this discussion (and your very thoughtful and considerate reply, 64)

Ultimately I think the motives are as pure as they could possibly be. I'm willing to give a shot. I bet it turns out better than it is now. Thanks again Admin staff, and you especially you, 64guitars.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 17, 2011, 01:24:59 AMI still don't see the reason we need to have any song posts separated.

Really? It's quite simple. There are far more posts than people have time to read and more songs than they have time to listen to. Some sort of filtering is required so that people can read and listen to the posts that they're most interested in. The easiest form of filtering to implement is to classify posts into separate boards. Choosing the right number of boards and the right classifications is tricky but we're doing our best.

QuoteWe all have varying degrees of ability. People's use of backers is NOT a negative thing, and those that use them should not be made to feel that way.

Backing tracks and midi files are wonderful learning and practice tools. I have 20 to 30 midi files loaded into my Yamaha keyboard which I often play along with for practice. But I wouldn't dream of recording my practice sessions and posting them here. I wouldn't want to bore our members with that any more than I'd want to make them listen to recordings of me practicing my scales.

For the few people here who are passionate about posting backing tracks and getting feedback on them, I'd suggest that they try to find another site with members who share their enthusiasm. I recently noticed that the forum at guitarbackingtrack.com allows its members to post songs they've made with backing tracks. Why not check that out?

http://www.guitarbackingtrack.com/forum/index.php (http://www.guitarbackingtrack.com/forum/index.php)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that anyone should leave Songcrafters and I hope that you'll all remain members here. But it's clear to me that our members will never share your enthusiasm for backing tracks, so what's the point in trying to convert them? It's a losing battle and it will only frustrate and anger you. Why not satisfy your craving for feedback on your backing track songs by joining a forum with like-minded backing track enthusiasts instead?

...just wondering...are these decisions already taken or is there room for a poll about it for the members?

Alfredo

Quote from: alfstone on June 18, 2011, 01:38:52 AM...just wondering...are these decisions already taken or is there room for a poll about it for the members?

Alfredo

I'm not admin, so take it for what it's worth. This discussion is where we get input. Unless a very, very strong argument is made otherwise, these changes will be implemented at least on a trial basis. There will always be the option of going back to what we have now or something in between.
     As I've posted, I've a few reservations, but the more I think about it, the more I want to see how the new boards will work.

Quote from: alfstone on June 18, 2011, 01:38:52 AM...just wondering...are these decisions already taken or is there room for a poll about it for the members?

Alfredo

the decisions are not yet made. The admin team - me mainly - were concerned about the legal aspects of using copyrighted material, after all its our asses on the line (my ass because it's my name and address on the site registration documentation)  and in trying to mitigate the risk of possible legal action we were discussing the use of, in particular, backers and samples. These proposals came out of the discussions (we don't actually converse over the phone or have any sort of speech type of communication so it's a bit protracted) and that's the reason for the changed propsals.

I don't particularly like backers, but I'll defend the right of anyone to post a solo over a backer here. I don't want to exclude them. I just don't want to find the local Plod on my doorstep at 6am asking me to come for a cup of tea and a chat.

So that's what it's about. We will take all of the suggestions and comments into consideration when we make the decision. We may not change it. We may change it slightly adding in ideas that have been supplied here. I just don't know until this thread has run its course and 64Guitars, Cuthbert, OldRottenHead and I have had a chance to debate it.

No decision has been made.

ouch, my head is hurting ;-)

i'm down with the hologram idea bb

Thank you administrators for your tireless efforts to make this site what it is

Quote from: Blooby on June 16, 2011, 05:40:22 AMJust wanted to take the time to say that I/we truly appreciate all the work you good folks put into the site. Whatever direction the site heads in, I know it will be well considered.

Peace.

Blooby

Double ditto!

Also, Mike.....
'The admin team - me mainly - were concerned about the legal aspects of using copyrighted material, after all its our asses on the line (my ass because it's my name and address on the site registration documentation)  and in trying to mitigate the risk of possible legal action we were discussing the use of, in particular, backers and samples.' 

I think you are right to be aware of that.  But I'm surprised that the focus is on the backers and samples rather than the tons of copyrighted cover songs stored on this site without the authors permission.  It sure looks to me like that is where the biggest exposure is.

Was just wondering about that, in a Platonical way...   :D
You know, I love cover songs.

Appreciate you, dude!

Hooper
 

Dear FlashHarry, your concerns about legal aspects of the whole thing are absolutely RIGHT, in my (but I think not only my) opinion.

I'm really sorry for my bad English, but I hope that what I'm going to write will have a sense for all of you.

Now, I was saying, there are several levels of the problem.

- Probably no one will remember, but one of my first posts here was more or less: did the site ever have copyright problems?....because I think that every time we post a cover, I don't think we all obtain the permission from the copyright owner to do that (at least, I never did). But most of us we do post covers, or most of the jukeboxes would not exist at all: I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but *probably* the whole Covers section is more or less illegal.
And this *could* be a problem for the web site admins. The MAIN problem, by my point of view.

- Backing tracks. Here, in my opinion, there a certain degree of confusion between backing tracks (quite often copyright protected) and, on the other side, loops, auto-accompaniment softwares and arrangers. All files produced with all of these are, AFAIK, all royalty-free products. In some cases it's required a permission, if there is a commercial use of these files, but of course this is not our situation. And anyway I think that respect to the first point, this is much less *dangerous* for the web admis.

- In front of these problems, sorry, but I can't understand the solution. General section, DIY sections...what does it change? What has it to do with the legal question? The above issues are legal, and require a LEGAL solution. And I don't see how a distinction between "pure" and "not-so-pure" songs can someway solve the problem: it has nothing to do with that, it makes only a "value chart". I don't agree with it by principle, but I'm ready to accept it, since it's right that every decision about a web site is in the hands of its management/admins.
But I repeat, I don't see how these changes can solve the legal problems that are the base of the changes themselves.

My two cents...

Alfredo

...OK, OK, my English is awful.... :(

Quote from: guitarron on June 18, 2011, 05:21:13 AMi'm down with the hologram idea bb

looks like the hologram idea is gaining traction..........it has legs.............it will fly..............hang on to this idea..............run with it...............hmmmmmmbacon and eggs........

In the U.S. if you follow the youtube rule of thumb you are safe. Submitters are responsible, but it's the sites responsibility to remove any content that is objected to. What does this mean? If a video is posted and someone complains about copyright infringement, it is taken down/removed/temporarily disabled until a decision is made about the copyright. If the poster cannot show they have the rights to the song it must be permanently removed. They key is if you are requested to take down a song by the copyright owner and you don't do it you are then held financially liable.

And a backing track (of a popular or work with a registered copyright) with a guitar solo over it is no different than a cover song posted. Or stated another way, it doesn't matter who made the music rather it is the posters responsibility to prove their right to disseminate it.

I understand the worry. It could potentially be a big one. But all of the music industry books I've read (and my knowledge is from books) use examples of no liability for the host as long as disputed works are removed at the time such a request is made. (Again U.S. examples only.)

sometimes on U-tube, to get around copyright, they will post the video reversed, like the Cowbell SNL skit I posted a few pages ago...............so, maybe we could do something similar here, post the covers in reverse............and then all we have to do is listen backwards.............Just trying to think outside the box here........

Quote from: hooper on June 18, 2011, 05:29:54 AMI think you are right to be aware of that.  But I'm surprised that the focus is on the backers and samples rather than the tons of copyrighted cover songs stored on this site without the authors permission.  It sure looks to me like that is where the biggest exposure is.

Was just wondering about that, in a Platonical way...   :D
You know, I love cover songs.

Appreciate you, dude!

Hooper
 

The easy answer is,  backing tracks make a great example without upsetting very many folks. There's like 4 backing track posts within the last 2 months. Mention "cover" legality in the same thread, and it will generate an extra 150 to 300 posts.  Way to go hooper and Alfredo!!! (joking of course)

The admin staff have clearly stated that they will continue to support all members of this site, to utilize it how they see fit. This level of commitment includes the members ability to upload music, regardless of the legality (Mikey Mike and the funky bunch, that takes huge balls btw). If my site were open to the public, I'd torture myself with this decision, and eventually cave, and become LEGAL.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 18, 2011, 06:30:13 AMsometimes on U-tube, to get around copyright, they will post the video reversed, like the Cowbell SNL skit I posted a few pages ago...............so, maybe we could do something similar here, post the covers in reverse............and then all we have to do is listen backwards.............Just trying to think outside the box here........

put on yer tinfoil hats ...... and hit the cowbell ;D

?evaD oot esrever ni tnemmoc ot evah ew dluoW

Quote from: Tony W on June 18, 2011, 06:38:17 AM?evaD oot esrever ni tnemmoc ot evah ew dluoW

ahahahahahah tnaillirb (damn thats harder to do than it looks)

I hate to type it out normally on notepad, then read it backwards. Impossible to spell check!

flesruoy stnemmoc eht esrever ot yzal oot er'uoy fi og ot ecalp doog a si siht (http://textmechanic.com/Reverse-Text-Generator.html)

...em ot egnarts demees ti...

 :o

Alfredo

So back OT, I just read through all 9 pages of this and wasn't going to comment but felt I ought to as this is an important issue that keeps surfacing from time to time.

My overall view is the big problem here is that the site is a victim of its own success in two ways:

1. It has attracted a wide range of people with very different interests. It didn't focus specifically on guitarists, songwriters whatever, the only common theme was Boss recorders, which is why we all originally found it. Many other sites are much more oriented around specific musical activities or musical genres, this one was not, meaning the site gained people with a wide range of different musical interests and skill levels. This means we are bound to have some differences of opinion as to what kinds of music people want to make and listen to.

2. The increasing success of the site meant that the large number of new posts made it impossible to listen to every post and comment on it, so people would naturally gravitate towards material they find closer to their own personal interests. Which means that however the board is organized, some types of posts will attract more comments than others based on the make up of the membership. This leads to parts of the community feeling a bit ignored, which is understandable. 

My own situation is as follows:

- I prefer original music. I find it more interesting to listen to and I can't deny that given the choice that's what I always prefer to listen to. Even by stating that it is implying that I therefore "look down" on other types of musical activity and in some way I have to say that is true. The reasons for that are complex and to do with my own personal musical history (mainly my punk background). I know in the past I have upset some people on this site because of my focus on that type of music and the implication that I don't value guitar solos over backers or covers as much as original songs.

- I am aware of that preference so what I have tried to do on the site is to make sure I spread my comments around and I have tried to devote at least some of my time on here commenting on backer-based works and covers. But the challenge is that as the site has grown and the number of posts increases, it is impossible for me to do that. I simply don't have the time.

- The other challenge is commenting. I like to actually listen to something and give feedback rather than just quickly skim it and just say "great track". I can do that with original songs because that's what I do when I create music. I'm not a guitarist and don't know much (well anything) about technique so when commenting on guitar played over backer, I'm struggling to find stuff to say apart from "great track", so that kind of puts me off commenting a bit.

All of that brings me to where I am today. I have become a bit of a background member because I feel overwhelmed by the number of new posts. I feel that if I only comment on a few tracks I am implicitly singling out those people/that style and adding to this air of favouritism that is creating the undercurrent here. So unless I have time to comment properly on a good number of tracks from a range of boards, I don't bother commenting at all and then this kind of backlog builds up and I feel bad commenting on anything so I just don't.

I guess I don't have any answers. I must typify some of the problems inherent with a broad community. I prefer original material, no denying that, but I have tried to listen to and participate in things that in the past I definitely did look down my nose at. Jazz, blues and country are all musical genres that I had a low opinion of in the past (I was incredibly musically "fashion conscious" in the 70s and 80s). Yet since being on here I have tried my hand at blues and come to appreciate blues guitar playing a lot more than I ever did, had my ears opened to some very alternative jazz and really enjoyed a lot of country-tinged music that has been posted here.

In reality I don't think it will make a lot of difference whether the boards are reorganized or not. The fundamental issues of having such a diverse community will remain a challenge for us. I would like to keep this community broad rather than narrow, so I would suggest any reorganization should be aimed at streamlining the board (ie make it easier to use) and minimizing the sense of alienation it may create among any part of the community. But I really don't know the best way to do this.

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 17, 2011, 01:50:45 AMA minor change I'd like to se tho is that the "Recent Posts" list on the front page would have 10 instead of 5 entries.

Your wish is my command Lovely.

I like that Ferryman comment above.  If I could be bothered writing a long response to this thread, then it would be just like that one.  Except I do pretend to be a guitar player.  And I don't do the backer stuff.  I don't really know how to.  Not really interested.  I make my own backers on the MBR.

Ian

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 18, 2011, 08:36:06 AM

Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 17, 2011, 01:50:45 AMA minor change I'd like to se tho is that the "Recent Posts" list on the front page would have 10 instead of 5 entries.

Your wish is my command Lovely.

;D ;D ROFL !!!  ;D ;D

Much appreciated good Sir !!!

^great refinement..............now then 64G what about my hologram request...........any developments on that one yet?

I knew I should have kept my mouth shut until Nigel opened his.

As usual, I can say : "Ditto what Nigel said !!"

Thank you Harry for making the reasons for this much more clear. It makes it easier to understand where this is coming from unlike some answers which carry a tone of "don't question me".

And since it certainly is not clear to at least one person here, I wanna make clear why I am debating this. I could care less if admin decides they do not want to take the risk and they ban backers, of course that begs the question about covers too, as was mentioned previously.

My initial reaction was to the way posters who use backers were being viewed in comparison to those who do not. The whole "they're not real musicians anyway" type of attitude.

Second, I took exception to the comment made about how DIY boards were for people who understood the "spirit of songcrafters". Logic dictates that anyone who does NOT post in this board DOES NOT embody the "spirit of songcrafters". I thought that this was a pretentious and shitty thing to say.

For an admin to make comments to the effect that any one group here is above an other is appalling. And for that admin to suggest that they go someplace else was insulting.

Divide the board by genre, divide the board by ANYTHING that makes sense. But you cannot divide the board by "those who get it" and "those who do not".

I have not even taken part in anything using backers in a long while. And, as everyone here that knows me, knows that I do my own music, covers and originals. As things have been put, most of what I would do would certainly qualify for being allowed to be in the "members board". But I would not feel comfortable knowing that others were being thought of as being less than.
  

Nigel brings up a very good point.

I don't think anybody is saying that we should force anyone to comment on those types of post that do not interest them. And I am in no way saying that all musical genres deserve respect. But your fellow posters in this community deserve some respect. I personally cannot stand country music. But I have listened to more country music on this forum than ever before. I respect the members and their efforts. I respect their recording and mixing abilities. I respect their passion for what they love to do. And I will not stand by and listen to others continue to justify why they should be given priority over other posters. Be honest... it was never about not having enough time to see all the posts. It's about "It's not fair that my post is being knocked down the page by stuff I consider to be crap!"

[cue music = Suicidal Tendencies Institutionalized]

So... in the spirit of all the house parties where a bunch of kids who loved music would revel in it, in the name of all the local hardcore and punk bands I grew up with, and to all the implied rules that are being made, here and elsewhere, to make sure that only those "in the know" continue to get the most...

FUCK THE SYSTEM!

(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/queen111222333/headbang.gif)
[/cue music]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm less concerned about the covers issue. It's clear that we are not aiming to make profit from the posting of covers here and they are the work of the individuals concerned. There is a issue about copyright and the use of others words and music, but it's not the same as lifting an MP3 from a backers or a samples website and playing it verbatim back out again. Fine for personal use, but not fine for re-publishing.

What ever happens, if we are asked to take a track down, we will have to do it. I would prefer to have the attackable surface of the site as small as possible. I don't want to have to close the site because we were careless.

Mind you, if Sony heard Geir's Beatles, I think they would whisk him into a studio and then tell us to take them down.

Quote from: The Despicable Flash Harry on June 18, 2011, 09:19:52 AMI'm less concerned about the covers issue. It's clear that we are not aiming to make profit from the posting of covers here and they are the work of the individuals concerned. There is a issue about copyright and the use of others words and music, but it's not the same as lifting an MP3 from a backers or a samples website and playing it verbatim back out again. Fine for personal use, but not fine for re-publishing.

What ever happens, if we are asked to take a track down, we will have to do it. I would prefer to have the attackable surface of the site as small as possible. I don't want to have to close the site because we were careless.

Mind you, if Sony heard Geir's Beatles, I think they would whisk him into a studio and then tell us to take them down.

Unfortunately, even covers have been attacked on other sites. The only real way to guard against this, without any issue whatsoever, is to turn the forum into an Originals Only forum. Though this would certainly put a damper on the fests, it would make the most sense... no matter how much it would suck. But it is still better than telling others that what they do has less value than what others do.

I haven't had a chance the last few days to pipe in on this discussion, so now that I have some time, I would like to give my take.

The proposed changes the admin team have been discussing are not a social experiment, and are not intended to denigrate the contributions of any member of this site. There are no sinister or hidden motives at play.

They are an attempt to re-structure the Post Your Work forum to emphasize what we think the philosophy of our site is and should be (a supportive home for do-it-yourself home recordists who join Songcrafters and who also wish to collaborate with fellow Songcrafters), as well as provide a place for those who wish to post their additions to backers, create songs from loop or performance samples, or collab with non-members. By adding DIY to the categories to help differentiate among the daily song posts, they are also intended to make finding music that may interest our members an easier task.

I think the proposed changes to the organization of this one forum attempt to strike a respectful balance between what we see as Songcrafters main purpose as well as the desires of anybody who wants to post their music here, regardless of whether it is entirely hand-crafted or not. The proposed re-organization would better define what gets posted where, and where to find it. That's really all it is.

-cuthbert

It's about time you weighed in Nigel. "nice post"

^ Thanks for your post cuthbert.

The only reason this wasn't clear originally, is that there was previous admittance to the fact that collabs have been pretty inactive. Using the same criteria that has been pushed back to me, if the distinct goal of "most" of the members here, was to produce music only with other members, the collab section would be the MOST active. Given that it is not, it is safe to assume that that is NOT the primary focus of "most of the members" here as we are being led to believe.

Quote from: The Despicable Flash Harry on June 18, 2011, 09:19:52 AMI'm less concerned about the covers issue. It's clear that we are not aiming to make profit from the posting of covers here and they are the work of the individuals concerned. There is a issue about copyright and the use of others words and music, but it's not the same as lifting an MP3 from a backers or a samples website and playing it verbatim back out again. Fine for personal use, but not fine for re-publishing.

What ever happens, if we are asked to take a track down, we will have to do it. I would prefer to have the attackable surface of the site as small as possible. I don't want to have to close the site because we were careless.

Mind you, if Sony heard Geir's Beatles, I think they would whisk him into a studio and then tell us to take them down.

By backers do we mean original recordings with the vox or guitar eq'd out, or someone taking a song written by someone else and making a new musical track without guitar and/or vox or are we talking about original songs written and recorded by someone as a backing track but then being used and posted without permission or all the above?

In the U.S. you run the same risk for all three of those examples as well as a cover. It's not more or less dangerous for any of the four. It all comes down to someone owning a copyright becoming aware of it's unlawful use and then caring enough to want it to stop.  I would think the danger is much higher from covers because there are a lot of people out there who actively look for illegal covers. Prince is notoriously strict about illegal covers. Many labels are as well, but with all the sites and postings on the internet it's hard for them to keep up on it.

Most of the backers I've used (and it's been a looooooooong time since I've used them) were created from scratch by someone and posted for others to use. Sometimes it was obviously a known song (many blues songs for example) and many were originals. I've even posted one or two original songs sans vox/guitar for others to use. A friend of mine uses those original backers and then writes lyric/vox and then posts it as a new song (with permission of the original posters) and that's not dissimilar to what a certain person of high esteem and regard  does on a regular basis here at this site.

Excellent post, Nigel! I agree with everything you said and I have the same problems with commenting.

I'm not sure about this one point in your last paragraph though:

Quote from: Ferryman on June 18, 2011, 08:12:28 AMI would like to keep this community broad rather than narrow

I agree that we should keep it sufficiently broad that we don't unnecessarily exclude people. But I think we have to be careful not to make it so broad that the site loses its focus and identity. If we try to be all things to all people, we end up diluting some of the best things about our community and losing our identity.

Every site needs a focus to be successful. To say our focus is anything to do with music would be far too broad. There are lots of music sites on the web. We need a narrower focus to distinguish ours and give it a unique identity. I think our focus should be on multitrack recordings created entirely by our members, and on Boss recorders. That's not to say that we shouldn't allow anything else. But we should be able to separate posts that are outside the focus of the site.

You're absolutely right that Songcrafters is a victim of its own success and it's impossible for most members to listen to every post and comment on it. So we need a way to quickly identify posts so that we can view the ones that we're most interested in. The easiest way to accomplish that is with separate boards for different types of posts. But, as you said, some boards are going to get more attention than others and that will cause some people to feel ignored. That's unfortunate but unavoidable if we're to have separate boards.

It seems to me that some people want to have multiple boards so that they can make the best use of their time when viewing posts and listening to songs. But when they post, they only want to have one board. Or, to look at it another way, they want to have lots of boards to save time when viewing/listening, but they want the boards to be chosen in such a way that all of their posts will always be in the most popular board. Well, sorry folks, you can't have it both ways. Either we have lots of boards so that we can make better use of our viewing/listening time, or we have one board so that everyone gets equal exposure and we miss out on a lot of great posts because we didn't have time for them.

If we're to have multiple boards (and I think we must), then it's reasonable that one of those boards is dedicated to the primary focus of the site - multitrack recordings made entirely by our members. If that means that other posts get a bit less exposure, I'm sorry but it's unavoidable. If we give the same exposure to all posts, even if they're outside the focus of the site, then the site really doesn't have a focus.

QuoteEvery site needs a focus to be successful.

But that focus could simply be by the attention the admin staff and members give certain subjects or items. I guess my point is that the structure of the site doesn't necessarily need to dictate what the focus is to have focus. (Although I admit it is possible to lose focus without it.) I definitely think as long as you are here 64, it'll be a hotbed of Boss knowledge. As long as the long timers stick around the focus of being a supportive community for home recording and song writing will both continue. We don't need the board structure to ensure it, at least at this time.

And I find it is often helpful to define success. What is success to you?

t.c.

p.s. I'm still not opposed to the changes suggested. But I do find this discussion fascinating. Even more because of what I can take away from this discussion and relate it to other areas I'm interested in.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 18, 2011, 10:20:28 AMI'm not sure about this one point in your last paragraph though:

Quote from: Ferryman on June 18, 2011, 08:12:28 AMI would like to keep this community broad rather than narrow

I agree that we should keep it sufficiently broad that we don't unnecessarily exclude people. But I think we have to be careful not to make it so broad that the site loses its focus and identity. If we try to be all things to all people, we end up diluting some of the best things about our community and losing our identity.

Every site needs a focus to be successful. To say our focus is anything to do with music would be far too broad. There are lots of music sites on the web. We need a narrower focus to distinguish ours and give it a unique identity. I think our focus should be on multitrack recordings created entirely by our members, and on Boss recorders. That's not to say that we shouldn't allow anything else. But we should be able to separate posts that are outside the focus of the site.

I meant we should try to be inclusive even though there is a natural "bias" towards original songwriting, especially when you consider where we have come from. As Sai said earlier, we could just say this is an "originals" site only and be done with it. That will lose us some members and although selfishly I could say that wouldn't bother me, I think it would damage the overall community because we would lose some talented musicians who are part of the community but don't focus on originals.

Part of the issue is that a while back we expanded the focus to "Songcrafters" ie more than Boss recorders so we have made the challenge worse because at least previously we all had the Boss recorders in common. And if we rein it back to just Boss we would lose folks like Paul and Nick who don't really use the Boss recorders as their primary recording source (and I've really enjoyed all the False prophets work and ourageous 70s fashions).

So I guess my position is that I'm suggesting don't try to use the reorg to create more of a focus for the site. Use it to address legitimate issues (like the use of loops or the closure/merging of inactive boards) and then let the community try to find its own level. If folks are feeling that the site isn't giving them what they need they will move on of their own accord.

You make a great point about multiple boards. We want it easier to find new stuff but of course we would all prefer if our own stuff was on page 1 of the biggest, most frequented board whether its a backer jam, cover, original song, collab whatever. I know I am guilty of that - it's part of the huge pleasure of being on this site. I feel so proud when a piece of my work gets lots of comments and stays on the first two pages, and you just want that feeling to last as long as possible!

I guess I'm just a bit worried that we are kind of saying to some people they should move on. I also feel that we created the problem by expanding the focus when we became "Songcrafters". So I see two options - evolution towards a clearer focus by natural selection, or we come out and say, like you did, the focus "should be on multitrack recordings created entirely by our members, and on Boss recorders". But if that's the case, the name Songcrafters probably is too wide.

Let me give the board structure some thought and I'll post some detailed thoughts.

Cheers,

Nigel

One thing puzzles me.

The suggested changes looks to me to be benefitial to those who like doing backers. They will now be posting in a much more active board. Yet this seems to be the issue that gets the most heat !!!

Am I missing something here ???

Also on the subject of backers, I would like to challenge every regular poster here to make some backers! With the talent and the gear we have at our disposal we could make some killer backers that then would dismiss all legal issues and make it much more fun, and maybe spawn some new collabs as well !!!

Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 18, 2011, 11:14:10 AMOne thing puzzles me.

The suggested changes looks to me to be benefitial to those who like doing backers. They will now be posting in a much more active board. Yet this seems to be the issue that gets the most heat !!!

Am I missing something here ???

That puzzles me too.

QuoteAlso on the subject of backers, I would like to challenge every regular poster here to make some backers! With the talent and the gear we have at our disposal we could make some killer backers that then would dismiss all legal issues and make it much more fun, and maybe spawn some new collabs as well !!!

I suggested this once before. I think it's a great idea and it would eliminate our legal worries if we restricted the use of backers to only those created by our members. We could build up a library of member-recorded backers so that people would have a good selection to choose from. And, since they'd be entirely member-performed, they could be posted in the DIY group where they'd get plenty of exposure and comments. But I got a lot of opposition when I proposed that idea. I forget what the objections were, but I gave up on the idea because it didn't seem like anyone else liked it.

Well, from this member who has been along for the the ride from the Yahoo Boss group to BossBR to the present Songcrafters (did i miss one?)..i find this thread facinating. Many good points being made. I especially identified with a piece of Nigel's post:

All of that brings me to where I am today. I have become a bit of a background member because I feel overwhelmed by the number of new posts. I feel that if I only comment on a few tracks I am implicitly singling out those people/that style and adding to this air of favouritism that is creating the undercurrent here. So unless I have time to comment properly on a good number of tracks from a range of boards, I don't bother commenting at all and then this kind of backlog builds up and I feel bad commenting on anything so I just don't.

Online time is sparse for me (sadly so has music been lately!) and that was a factor in my basically bowing out of here for awhile back and spending time at Tony's site. So few people there..you could take it all in and not live on the PC. The talent and many of the original group members on Songcrafters were most impressive with their supportive and constructive comments and great original music. I'm a songwriter. I have done covers but that's not my thing. Nothing against it or backers. Each to their own. I just prefer multi-track DIY stuff. Having a board just for that makes alot of sense to me. Jazz virtuosos are all but ignored by the pop music world..and vice-versa. So what. If i chose to narrow my attention to the DIY board, i would be getting/giving feedback to those who share my main interest. I think that was the original intention of this site. I think perhaps there is room here for everybody to do their thing. Will it polarize the site? Yes, probably will to a degree. So? I think that would be better than alienating aspiring musicians who want to have fun with covers and backers. Just give them their own space...if you can do that without incurring legal litigation. Trouble is that "space" costs money (so i have been told) and if push came to shove, i would want to see the site constrict to it's original focus and let all the software DAW, cover and backer artists share their work on other sites..of which there are many to choose from. I don't think the administrators of this site owe anybody anything. They pay to to keep the lights on. I trust their judgement completely. If the boards become specialized, i for one will be here alot more. Long live Boss recorders and original music!

Pine

Quote from: Pinedog on June 18, 2011, 11:35:42 AMWell, from this member who has been along for the the ride from the Yahoo Boss group to BossBR to the present Songcrafters (did i miss one?)..

microrecorders  or something like that..

Quote from: Tony W on June 17, 2011, 08:20:43 PM^ I can't help but want to mention Tangles Wires at this point. They are a staple in this community, yet I don't believe Sasha has an account. I feel its worth mentioning.

You are right Tony, Sasha does not have an account here and I have mentioned this in the past to her, but she has always said that she would not have time to spend on here and was happy for me to post our music on here bearing in mind that I joined this site about a year before Tangled Wires even existed.

I could get her to join, enabling our music to be catergorized in the DIY section, but I would feel that she would only be doing it for that reason, and would not likely actually have time to participate and comment on others work (I may be wrong!), which is not in the spirit of Songcrafters, and I would probably not feel comfortable in that.

Despite the fact that I have a heavy involvement in our songs (write and play all the music, programme drums and do all the mixing), this will not merit entry into the DIY section, which I accept, as I am seeking major assistance from a non-member (lyrics and vocals).

I do feel, however, that there have been some members who have joined in the past year or so, who have presented songs on here, that have been performed by entirely non-members which, dare I say, may have had an influence on this re-think of the structure of the site.

I do accept that the line needs to be drawn, and special rules can't be made for members who make a "significant" contribution with their bands. I suppose, however, you could argue that a song that has taken a month to write and record should not be placed in the same category as somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track, which effectively is what will happen with my posts and some others (False Prophets and MoO spring to mind)

Having been a member of the site for over 3 years now, I have witnessed first hand the growth and changes, and like many others found this site in order to learn more about my Micro BR. Is the site too big now?...possibly...did I prefer it a couple of years ago when it was solely focussed on Boss Recorders?...probably...but things move on.

In saying all this, I accept any decisions taken by the Admin team, and as most of us will remember, a year ago there was a strong possibility that this site was not going to exist anymore, and if was not for the generosity and continued huge effort of these guys we would not even be discussing this, and would not have, what still is, the best music site on the net.

Just waded through everything since I first posted. There's some fine thoughts and posts in here.

I have some of the same reservations as Sai and others. All in all, though, I get what the idea is and don't object at all to the proposals as they've been explained so far.

My only reason for posting now is that I suddenly realised it might be helpful for me, as a member, to make a few statements about how I think/feel about the site. This is just a brain-dump of how I feel and use it, I've no issue with people thinking differently and using the site differently.

- Whether I like it or not, I am a songwriter, always have been. I like this site because it's an outlet for me when I get round to recording songs.

- I'm a musician and arranger, I like showing off what I can do. I also like (when I get time) hearing other people showing what they can do. I also like hearing potential and helping others to reach that potential.

- I like creating stuff, and discovering BR recorders means I can create complete stuff.

- I personally have absolutely no desire at all to collaborate, especially on stuff I write myself. I have a complete vision every time, and other people's ideas don't usually fit that vision (at the moment I'm reworking various songs that I was very fond of, but were changed by the members of the bands I was in because they thought their parts were boring). There is definitely a place for collaboration, it results in some amazing things that I couldn't do on my own, but I don't have the time to do what I really want to do, so I'm personally not interested in seeking out collaboration at the moment. Sometimes I get dragged into it by accident, and it's always been a complete pleasure, but it's not something I'm coming here for.

- I don't actually regard this site as a songwriting site myself. It wasn't when I joined, and the name change to songcrafters worried me slightly. Obviously, I fit in OK because I write songs and I sing, but there's a lot of talented people who don't do either of these. I regard the site as a place where folks who are trying to make recordings can post their stuff, share their ideas and their creativity. I suppose I see it as "home creativity" site, where the creativity is focussed around capturing sound, not songwriting especially, nor even being a musician, but those obviously are intimately tied up in it. For this reason I would see a member, for example, who does not play at all but records others (in a home recording fashion) to be just as important as I am - and I would therefore feel a bit odd about them not being able to post in a board that embodies a "spirit of songcrafters". BUT, with the restructure, they would have somewhere to post, so it's not a huge problem for me (see my last point though...).

- I like the covers, backer-tracks, all of it (when I get round to prowling at all) - it's all an expression of someone's creativity, I love it all. And I personally have no problem with stuff pushing my contributions down any board. If I don't get the attention I crave, I just need to do two things - a) actually create some new recordings(!) and, possibly more important, b) try and find more time to listen to and comment on other people's stuff. So I don't personally see a need for separating out different strands of what we do. I'd be happy posting my originals and covers all in one place, competing with backers, people's first tentative steps in recording, whatever. But I do see the reasons for separation and I fully support the separation.

- (This last one might be contentious and not what the admin guys are expecting) Am I the only songwriter/performer on here who is, at the moment, leaning towards posting all of his/her "diy" stuff in the proposed General board because I regard it as more of a challenge. I personally would rather put my output somewhere where anyone can put stuff instead of in a board that I might feel is slightly too "exclusive" for me personally (even if I qualify)?


Anyway - I've got to get my missus some food... I just posted these musings because I've realised that 64 and all are trying to get a feel for what we think and our aspirations are, etc...

I'll happily go with whatever you guys decide on - you're doing a fine job :)

(Btw 64G - I'm really looking forward to this song database thing, especially because (since I moved my recordings offsite) I seem to get a lot less bumps on here! :D)

Quote(Btw 64G - I'm really looking forward to this song database thing, especially because (since I moved my recordings offsite) I seem to get a lot less bumps on here! )

that's the slickest bump-bait I've seen in a long time ;D


one bump coming up !!

If we should sing together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh ... that's too easy ::)

but so delicious

I vote for more boobs!

Or a new section for "Lady Banjos!".....

Quote from: OsCKilO on June 18, 2011, 12:56:46 PMI vote for more boobs!

Or a new section for "Lady Banjos!".....

You're a sick, sick man.

Excellent read, gentlemen. Excellent read. ;D

And the next festival should be Acoustic Justin Bieber covers!

That will get us recognition from today's listeners!

Actually, we should dedicate the site to Justin Beiber. Or maybe just his hair...

QuoteOr a new section for "Lady Banjos!".....

can i just clarify that mrs orh is not lady banjo.

QuoteI just posted these musings because I've realised that 64 and all are trying to get a feel for what we think and our aspirations are, etc...

exactly

Quote from: OsCKilO on June 18, 2011, 01:19:11 PMAnd the next festival should be Acoustic Justin Bieber covers!

That will get us recognition from today's listeners!

I assume you're kidding, but I think JustInfest might actually be a lot of fun. It's kind of like Ted's idea for RescueFest (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=4112.msg107263#msg107263) except we'd be agreeing to cover one particular artist. I don't think I've ever heard him before so I have no idea what his music sounds like, but I'm familiar with his reputation as a no-talent teeny-bopper idol. It might be fun to take one of his songs and try to make it into something good.

If it's a JustInFest, I'm leaving...

I think that Tim wouldn't be far behind

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 18, 2011, 01:37:20 PM

Quote from: OsCKilO on June 18, 2011, 01:19:11 PMAnd the next festival should be Acoustic Justin Bieber covers!

That will get us recognition from today's listeners!

I assume you're kidding, but I think JustInfest might actually be a lot of fun. It's kind of like Ted's idea for RescueFest (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=4112.msg107263#msg107263) except we'd be agreeing to cover one particular artist. I don't think I've ever heard him before so I have no idea what his music sounds like, but I'm familiar with his reputation as a no-talent teeny-bopper idol. It might be fun to take one of his songs and try to make it into something good.

Yes, that would be fun. I've always wondered what the songwriter demos sounded like before they were processed and handed over to the performer. My guess is they sounded a lot better and didn't lose their soulfulness in the process.

Quote from: The Despicable Flash Harry on June 18, 2011, 01:38:57 PMIf it's a JustInFest, I'm leaving...

I think that Tim wouldn't be far behind

Oops! Never mind then.  ;D

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 18, 2011, 01:43:17 PM

Quote from: The Despicable Flash Harry on June 18, 2011, 01:38:57 PMIf it's a JustInFest, I'm leaving...

I think that Tim wouldn't be far behind

Oops! Never mind then.  ;D

Ha, I don't scare so easily! Oops, pretty soon I'll start talking about how I rooted for Boston...  :o

I've seen my forum mentioned here, both by me and the members of both forums frequently enough, that I can't help but reiterate what I consider a valuable point, a mistake we should learn from.

I never intended to have a functional forum with an actual following. The last restructure of the newly named songcrafters is largely responsible for my site becoming active. Like it or not, believe it or not, feelings were hurt, and people turned to a place where they didn't feel ignored and substandard.

I was very much in favor of restructuring albeit 16 months later than it should have been. After several days of deliberation, and seeing different viewpoints, I still don't have a clear preference as to how each section is defined, or whether everything be lumped back into one board.

If this were a cell phone hacking forum, it would be simple, define each board by the Mfg and type of phone. We don't have that luxury, its too difficult to classify a musical artist into a sub-category, without them making that decision for themselves.

To me this is the ultimate problem with the first re-structure, and most likely the biggest problem with the second, an existing membership. If it were a new forum, it wouldn't be difficult to identify with where I'd want to be. I was happily going along, sharing what the members of songcrafters taught me (I learned to play music here) until my posts were relegated to a board with no activity.

Truth be told, I absolutely resented the last restructure. It took quite some time before I accepted the fact that so few people actually gave a shit about my musical journey, and the rest humored me because my posts were more or less "visible".

I'm left with resounding questions. Is a restructure even necessary? What's the real advantage? If it's to revive people who post backers... that ship sailed 16 months ago. Is it to further weed out posts out from the originals board due to use of loops, non-member input, etc?  Is it worth another round of potential bitterness and hard feelings? I really don't think so.

I suppose, if there were a poll right now, I'd change my vote to leave things as they are (for at least the next 15 minutes).

Quote from: andrewh on June 18, 2011, 12:22:46 PMI do accept that the line needs to be drawn, and special rules can't be made for members who make a "significant" contribution with their bands. I suppose, however, you could argue that a song that has taken a month to write and record should not be placed in the same category as somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track, which effectively is what will happen with my posts and some others (False Prophets and MoO spring to mind)

That's a good point Andrew. It does seem unfair to have the band recordings in the same board as the karaoke. But I'm not sure what the best solution is.

I don't know if all of the admin team is 100% in agreement with me (I don't want to put words in their mouths), but my own personal main objective here is to have a place that's just for DIY recordings. But band recordings usually include non-members. That's the only reason I'd like to move them out of the DIY boards. I mean no disrespect to any of the bands or the band members. I love Tangled Wires, False Prophets, MoO, etc. and I want all bands to continue to feel welcome here and to continue posting their music.

If we're to have a DIY board, then we need somewhere to put the posts that aren't entirely DIY. My initial idea was to create a General board and put everything that wasn't DIY in there. The way I saw it, this was best because it would give more exposure to these posts than if they were in separate boards (bands, non-member collabs, backers, etc). Although, admittedly, they probably wouldn't get as much exposure as they had in the current Originals and Covers, but that can't be helped. As a side-benefit, I realized that having this General board would give a lot more exposure to backers than they're getting in the current Backing Track Jams board. But, frankly, I no longer give a toss about backers. Every time we try to help them, they throw it back in our face and stomp their feet. And, as Tony said, that ship has sailed anyway. So I'm now inclined to leave the Backing Track Jams board as it is and create a separate board for bands. Would that be any better for you than the idea of the General board? I could also create a jukebox to showcase our bands. It would work like the current Latest Songs jukebox except that it would only include songs from the Bands board. Every time a new song got posted in the Bands board, it would automatically be added to the jukebox. What do you think?

As I said, my own personal main objective here is to have a place that's just for DIY recordings. Most of the other stuff I've talked about is secondary and I'm more willing to make compromises. For example, it's been mentioned that the name of the Collaborations board shouldn't be changed. If that's what people want, I can accept it. However, that leaves us with the problem of where to put the posts from the Lyrics board, and the 'pre-release' mixes. I suppose we could leave the mixes as they are for now, but I'd like to get rid of the separate Lyrics board and merge its posts with another board. But which one? Or do we leave the lyrics on their own for lack of a better place?

One last thing I'd like to point out. The main concern that some people seem to have is that reorganizing the boards will mean less exposure for their posts. That might prove true but we won't know unless we try. For example, it's quite possible that showcasing the bands in their own board and giving them a jukebox might attract more interest and increase the exposure for those posts. And changes don't have to be permanent. If we try this and find that it's a disaster, we can always make more changes to try to fix it.

My opinion is to try it as you originally stated. The less boards the better. Put the backers in the general (or whatever cool name we can come up with) as well as lyric etc.

Like you said, we won't know till we try. It is possible the the DIY boards become less popular if more and more people sign up who aren't 100% original in their recordings.

I'm not sure calling someone's effort noodling or karaoke is helping matters, though. I understand that most of the time those submissions are one or two take affairs, but a great guitar line, well thought out and played can be just as deserving (or more so) than a shoddy one take guitar/vox recording of a song. And I do my fair share of shoddy one takes and more than my share of guitar/vox recordings.

You`re still here? It`s over. Go home.  GO!


(http://media.avclub.com/images/articles/article/32178/ferris_buellers_day_off_3_png_627x325_crop_upscale_q85.jpg)

I'm still here, and I'm not leaving..........not ever.......this site it too much fun.........whatever configuration the boards take I'm not leaving..............ever................never................whatever

QuoteI don't know if all of the admin team is 100% in agreement with me

lmao somewhere on the ethernet is a very private admin thread that is almost identical to this one about 90% of the opinions expressed in this thread have been expressed in the ultravirtual admin thread that you guys aint privvy to. i love this place

Unless some information comes to light, this will be my last post regarding this... We have no doubt already spent more time on this than should have been necessary.

Quote from: 64gAs a side-benefit, I realized that having this General board would give a lot more exposure to backers than they're getting in the current Backing Track Jams board. But, frankly, I no longer give a toss about backers.

Just because you THINK it is a benefit, doesn't automatically make it so. But since you are not open to an actual discussion about it, I guess you would prefer we keep our opinions to ourselves.

Quote from: 64gEvery time we try to help them, they throw it back in our face and stomp their feet.

It is that so-called "help" that is in contention. I don't believe it will help at all. And given the fact that you have not bothered to at least dispute the opinions put forth regarding it, it appears that you know fully well that it is not meant to help.

Quote from: 64gAs I said, my own personal main objective here is to have a place that's just for DIY recordings. Most of the other stuff I've talked about is secondary and I'm more willing to make compromises.

So it IS just your own opinion. So your statement earlier making it appear like there are tons of members who share this view was what... and exaggeration? Now that I think of it, I don't recall anyone here saying they shared this view. Sure, Originals seems to be the prime focus, I'll give you that. Originally recorded Covers seems to have enough interest also. But I have yet to see ONE member say that they wished to have a board for music ONLY done by members. Quite a few people with concerns and questions.

Funny how you are fighting so hard to separate what you deem worthy, from the rest of the "peons", when you take little part in the community anyway. What do you care if people record using outside members? You have posted little more than 4 or 5 things since 2008, so you are clearly NOT interested in posting yourself. You rarely ever post feedback of any kind, to anybody's posts, so it is not like you are a driving force in that area either. So how is it that you have a vested interest in where anyone should post or especially WHO should be allowed to post where?

Quote from: T.C. ElliotI'm not sure calling someone's effort noodling or karaoke is helping matters, though.

THIS was my issue... THIS is why I have been keeping at this.

A couple of other posters made hints at this too, but it's been primarily 64g who has done everything he can to belittle anyone he sees as not falling in with HIS vision.




You know why this continues to bother me? We all know that 64g is a really smart guy. I am not being a smart ass when I say this. He is probably one of the smartest forum admins I have ever had to deal with...and I've belonged to many forums over the years. The things he has figured out how to do in order to have some cool features here is nothing short of amazing. And for this, we should all be thankful.

So... given this... I am to believe that he isn't completely aware of what he is saying and how others would feel about it? What reason do we have to think it was just the wrong choice of words, or that he doesn't mean it in the manner it is said? That would make total sense if he didn't keep saying it.

At this point, it matters little what the forum ends up being, since I apparently qualify for the members only board. But I have no respect for someone who continues to show complete disrespect to certain members of his own community because he does not see their efforts as being worthy of "his" forum. Furthermore, I am quite disappointed that many here refuse to see it.

My goal too was to do originals, and record everything myself for that matter. But I would never do so at the expense of others.

Guess I will end this here. I'll still be around listening to as much stuff as I can, but I doubt I'll be a big part of this community anymore. Good luck to everyone. Happy recording... oops... Songwriting! :)

Thanks

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 18, 2011, 06:55:51 PMI'm still here, and I'm not leaving..........not ever.......this site it too much fun.........whatever configuration the boards take I'm not leaving..............ever................never................whatever

I don`t expect you to and nor will I!

QuoteGuess I will end this here. I'll still be around listening to as much stuff as I can, but I doubt I'll be a big part of this community anymore. Good luck to everyone.

Sai? You know that everyone wants you here and posting. We shouldn`t get to upset over this. Talking cyber can be frustrating and words can be taken the wrong way easily. Don`t get pissed off. This is why i hate the General discussion board cuz that`s where the fights start. This thread is to talk things out on the subject.

maybe its a good time for some more cowbell
(https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11426.0;attach=11910)

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 18, 2011, 10:13:33 AMUsing the same criteria that has been pushed back to me, if the distinct goal of "most" of the members here, was to produce music only with other members, the collab section would be the MOST active. Given that it is not, it is safe to assume that that is NOT the primary focus of "most of the members" here as we are being led to believe.

Hu? whats that you say?  Are you suggesting that original songs and cover songs performed by members in collaboration with other members is not a primary focus of this site?  And for evidence of this theory you point to the lack of activity in the collab section.  Are you being serious, I can't tell?  Look around at the Originals and Covers sections, look at how many songs posted there are collabs bewteen members here.  I am only guessing, but I will say there are a lot of songs posted on here are collaborations between members................a whole lot of songs................that looks like a site focus to me.  The collab thing happens organically, via PM's, E-mail, banter in thread posts.  It does not only happen in the confines of the collab thread.  This site is a hot-bed of member collaborations on original music and covers.  You seriously don't notice that?  What the heck do you think the focus of this site is?  You seem to be suggesting that there is a deep conspiracy going on, while the outward aims of the site are original music/covers and collaborations on original music/covers between members, but really, deep down there is the real focus of this site, a dark and sinister plot to overthrow all world governments and install a one world wide government........yeah, thats it, that is the real goal of this site....to usher in the New World Order........and the Admin team is secretly working for the shadow government to bring about this evil plot..............and we have been fooling ourselves all this time..............it is not really about making original music in collaboration with each other.............but world wide domination...........................it all sounds a little out there to me....................but at least we know the real purpose of this site.......................There's only one thing we can do to thwart the plot of these albino shape-shifting lizard BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  More cowbell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QuoteShape-shifting lizard BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Bq8xFjbqhts/TOYD5FM4hCI/AAAAAAAAAAk/YUHFCtt8pkI/s1600/gorn.jpg)

This is the evil Administration! This will be my last post on this matter. They are on to me!

 (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NXvI6_FsowM/TX672SNHJXI/AAAAAAAACMY/eDWkUcJJuRQ/s1600/2.gif.jpg)

hahahahaha, and watch out for the green one who hides out in your garbage can, nasty peice of work that one is

Nobody likes a collab whore, little Oscar. Get back in the can!!

Long live collaborations, that's what this site is about!

Collabbing and hot tubbing Right Mark?

Looking forward to your visit..

(http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/images/redneck_wading_pool.jpg)

Quote from: Tony W on June 18, 2011, 07:52:15 PMCollabbing and hot tubbing Right Mark?

Looking forward to your visit..

You bet! Looking forward to it. I'll be the pretty one no doubt...

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 18, 2011, 01:37:20 PM

Quote from: OsCKilO on June 18, 2011, 01:19:11 PMAnd the next festival should be Acoustic Justin Bieber covers!

That will get us recognition from today's listeners!

I assume you're kidding, but I think JustInfest might actually be a lot of fun. It's kind of like Ted's idea for RescueFest (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=4112.msg107263#msg107263) except we'd be agreeing to cover one particular artist. I don't think I've ever heard him before so I have no idea what his music sounds like, but I'm familiar with his reputation as a no-talent teeny-bopper idol. It might be fun to take one of his songs and try to make it into something good.

Like you I had not heard any of his stuff  :(.... so I checked out half a dosen of his videos on youtube.. :-[... I had more than enough afte two, but I kept looking for ONE song without the use of a pitch-correction effect  :-\.... my ears started bleeding after the 4th song ... I even found a live performance where he started with just an acousic and "his" voice :o .... I would have kept looking, but some men in white coats where knocking frantically on my door so I had to run ....

Long live songcrafters !!!

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 18, 2011, 04:30:18 PMAnd, as Tony said, that ship has sailed anyway. So I'm now inclined to leave the Backing Track Jams board as it is and create a separate board for bands. Would that be any better for you than the idea of the General board? I could also create a jukebox to showcase our bands. It would work like the current Latest Songs jukebox except that it would only include songs from the Bands board. Every time a new song got posted in the Bands board, it would automatically be added to the jukebox. What do you think?

That's a pretty sound idea 64G, and thanks for your detailed response. I suppose my main concern was that, as we all know, the backing tracks board gets very little traffic, and in turn it could mean that a General Board suffered in the same way because the backing tracks would be part of this. I have nothing against people using backing tracks, although they do not appeal to me, as they serve as a great learning tool, but I do think that they are an entirely different animal to a fully constructed and performed song (whether it be performed soley or in part by members of this site).

I like the idea of the seperate board, as I would hope that there are a number of bands established for some time on this site now, that people are familiar with and enjoy to listen to, which would hopefully guarantee that a board of this nature was generate a good degree of interest, and as you say, may increase their exposure.

As you have quite rightly said, any restructuring doesn't have to be permanent, and could be changed if it appeared not to be working

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 18, 2011, 07:22:28 PM

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 18, 2011, 10:13:33 AMUsing the same criteria that has been pushed back to me, if the distinct goal of "most" of the members here, was to produce music only with other members, the collab section would be the MOST active. Given that it is not, it is safe to assume that that is NOT the primary focus of "most of the members" here as we are being led to believe.

Hu? whats that you say?  Are you suggesting that original songs and cover songs performed by members in collaboration with other members is not a primary focus of this site?  And for evidence of this theory you point to the lack of activity in the collab section.  Are you being serious, I can't tell?  Look around at the Originals and Covers sections, look at how many songs posted there are collabs bewteen members here.  I am only guessing, but I will say there are a lot of songs posted on here are collaborations between members................a whole lot of songs................that looks like a site focus to me.  The collab thing happens organically, via PM's, E-mail, banter in thread posts.  It does not only happen in the confines of the collab thread.  This site is a hot-bed of member collaborations on original music and covers.  You seriously don't notice that?  What the heck do you think the focus of this site is?  You seem to be suggesting that there is a deep conspiracy going on, while the outward aims of the site are original music/covers and collaborations on original music/covers between members, but really, deep down there is the real focus of this site, a dark and sinister plot to overthrow all world governments and install a one world wide government........yeah, thats it, that is the real goal of this site....to usher in the New World Order........and the Admin team is secretly working for the shadow government to bring about this evil plot..............and we have been fooling ourselves all this time..............it is not really about making original music in collaboration with each other.............but world wide domination...........................it all sounds a little out there to me....................but at least we know the real purpose of this site.......................There's only one thing we can do to thwart the plot of these albino shape-shifting lizard BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  More cowbell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really, Dave? Nice! Way to ignore the most important part of the post and jump on the most irrelevant. And here I thought you were actually interested in discussion. I am not even mad anymore... But I am still compelled to continue. I am a glutton for punishment I guess. :/

Okay...

Since your collab "info" is not actually based on anything, it doesn't change anything. Even so, we will say you are right, and hopefully you will see why you just helped to prove my point.

1.   64g said that the DIY boards would be the exception.  Anyone with half a brain, or who would just take a real moment to think about it, knows that most of the regular posters will fall into this category.

2.   If Tributes are moved to Covers and  Lyrics are moved to Collaborations (in order to use the lyrics you do have to collab with someone) that leaves only Backing Track Jams and Member Bands to comprise the General Board. BT and Bands??? A known scarcely used board combined with the sudden uninvited members?

3.   While it was assumed that the Backers would benefit from the additional traffic of the bands, there was  still one missing factor.

4.   The DIY Boards that were supposed to be the exception, are now the rule. With the most active posters on songcrafters, now in the DIY Boards, and given the comments from members saying they only have time for one board regularly, this is an easy conclusion.

5.   And since it doesn't take a genius to see that with the majority of regulars in the DIY boards, it stands to reason that it was fully understood that the General Boards were going to get the short end of the stick... yet again. Before you even try to dispute this, please remember we already know that the BT boards are all but dead, and that the band post made up only one post out of 38 post on the first page of the Original Boards.

6.   So now we are told that they were trying to "help" the backers. By putting it in a board you know will not be the main board for most of the members? How is that helping? Once the Bands realize that they just went from a well populated board to an afterthought board, some might leave, some will complain, others will make due and wonder why they lost out all because their band consist of members who do not belong to songcrafters.

7.   Now it is being noted that the ungrateful backer lovers have questioned the powers that be. How dare you! I shall remove my "help" then you ungrateful whelps!

8.   But, it is worth noting that from the beginning, comments were made making sure everyone knew exactly what the powers that be thought of those who do not qualify for the DIY Boards. I am not making that up. Re-read the comments. 

9.   On top of everything, out of nowhere we are being told that the majority of the board prefers that the focus of the site be on "member only originals, covers, and collabs".

10.   Stupify! Wha??? Originals and Original Collabs, in general, I can understand... Since when did member only anything come into the picture?

11.   Questions were asked, and reasons for dispute were given... questions were ignored, reasons were dismissed without comment.

Now, you tell me... How should I feel when people I respect are being told that what their efforts are worthless? That because their goal does not match that of the vocal few, they are less than. Practice sessions and karaoke? Was that really necessary?

Must we berate others just so that we can feel good about ourselves? Do you feel better knowing that the people who only worked, no more than, a couple of hours on their project, will no longer be push your project off the front page? This was stated by the way, yet you act like I am making it up as part of some conspiracy? Way to divert!

I know this is lost. The powers that be never had any intention of having a discussion. This was a memo. It really is too bad because some of the other admin have posted much more informative and respectful posts since this thread started. It is a shame that not everyone is past that pretentious teenage mentality of bullying others.


I just thought of what all of this reminds me of... This place is becoming more and more like Ultimate-Guitar! Arguments about what constitutes "real" music, which posts were more valid than others, where someone had a right to post in the hardcore forum if they felt your song was screamo. Those were the days. Bunch of pricks over on that site. Now I remember why I left.

QuoteNice! Way to ignore the most important part of the post and jump on the most irrelevant. And here I thought you were actually interested in discussion.

I don't even know what is the most important part and what is the irrelevant anymore............It is all just turning into a blur of words, this whole thread.  I thought the most important part was the discussion about what we felt was and should be the focus and philosophy for this site.  You made a post where you "proved" that members collabing together was not a focus of this site, which seemed totally ridiculous to me.  I just couldn't let that statement go without a counter argument, because, as you can see from my response, I think that collabing with members is one of the most rewarding and important thing we do around here.  It is a huge reason why I keep coming on here every day, to hear collabs between members.  It is one of the top focus for this site.  How does my response show that i am not interested in discussion, I was infact discussing a point that you made that i disagreed with.  Isn't that having a discussion about the focus and philosophy for this site.  For sure there are other things that we all do on this site, but for me getting involved in collaboration is hugely rewarding and one of my top reasons for loving this site.  In fact, it is one of the best sites on the internet for this kind of activity, the interaction between members is really strong here.  Thats my opinion.  One of the first things that attracted me to this site was seeing all the collaboration activity that was happening on a regular basis, and so I joined in on the fun and haven't looked back.  It is a hugely important thing we do on this site, how can anyone say otherwise.


I'll state it again, so it is clear, this is my position on this discussion, I believe that collaborations between members making original music and interesting covers is one of the most important things we do on this site, and is one of the main reasons that I remain an active member.  I can't say what other people think, but I would go out on a limb here and say that a lot of other members feel the same way.  Is this not all part of the ongoing discussion here.

Quote from: launched on June 18, 2011, 07:49:10 PMLong live collaborations, that's what this site is about!

long live songcrafters..........in whatever configuration the Admin team chooses.............we will all still be here collabing with each other in a mad frenzy of musical mayhem.............

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 19, 2011, 08:23:55 AM

Quote from: launched on June 18, 2011, 07:49:10 PMLong live collaborations, that's what this site is about!

long live songcrafters..........in whatever configuration the Admin team chooses.............we will all still be here collabing with each other in a mad frenzy of musical mayhem.............

Amen to that.

Question to 64g

How hard would it be, on the Forum drop down menu, to add a master list? Ie where it says post your work, to just click that and have all the topics listed in one master forum? Is that still a database issue?
And is it possible to increase the number of posts displayed per page? I know on Amazon etc they have options you can click.
thank you much

This topic is about the proposed minor reorganisation of the Post Your Work boards and the philosophy/direction/focus of Songcrafters. We welcome further ideas on that topic, but it's time to put a stop to any further discussion of the merits of backing tracks here. It's not relevant to this topic.

Sai: You're obviously very angry with me. I don't know what I've said that upset you but I'm sorry if you feel offended. I mean no disrespect to you or any other member of Songcrafters. I suggest that you take a week or two to calm down, then if you still feel the need to champion the use of backing tracks, start a new topic on that subject. Please don't post any further comments here in this topic based on your enthusiam for backing tracks. It's not helping and it's derailing the topic we're trying to discuss here.

Everyone: No more discussion of the merits of backing tracks here. If you must discuss it, do so in a new topic.

Thank you.

Quote from: T.C. Elliott on June 18, 2011, 04:43:47 PMI'm not sure calling someone's effort noodling or karaoke is helping matters, though.

I was referring specifically to Andrew's comment about "somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track". In my humble opinion, that's guitar karaoke. But I didn't mean to imply that all backing track usage is guitar karaoke. I'm sure that some people put a great deal of time and effort into their recordings that use backing tracks and I didn't mean to imply that such recordings are also guitar karaoke. My comment was only about the 10-minute noodle which involves very little time and effort and shouldn't be taken very seriously. Sorry for not making that clear in my original comment.

Sorry for posting this after I just said that posts about backing tracks must stop, but I felt that it was important to clarify my earlier statement so that it doesn't unintentionally offend people who put a lot of time and effort into recording with backing tracks.

Quote from: launched on June 19, 2011, 08:33:00 AM

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 19, 2011, 08:23:55 AM

Quote from: launched on June 18, 2011, 07:49:10 PMLong live collaborations, that's what this site is about!

long live songcrafters..........in whatever configuration the Admin team chooses.............we will all still be here collabing with each other in a mad frenzy of musical mayhem.............

Amen to that. 

Amen to that Brother......And now the Lords Prayer........Right what now?.........now...... does anyone want to collaborate on something....i can sing......do a bit of noodling.......talk i'm quite good at talking i learn't how to do it at an early stage...whistle ......anyone?

Quote from: T.C. Elliott on June 19, 2011, 08:38:42 AMHow hard would it be, on the Forum drop down menu, to add a master list? Ie where it says post your work, to just click that and have all the topics listed in one master forum? Is that still a database issue?

Sort of an alternate view of the Post Your Work forums which treats the category as one big board? There's nothing in the existing software that allows for that but I could probably create something like that, though it would take some time. I'm not sure how far it would go toward improving the exposure of the less popular boards but it might help a bit. And some people might prefer to view the song posts that way so it would be good to give them the option. I'll definitely think about it. Thanks for the suggestion.

QuoteAnd is it possible to increase the number of posts displayed per page? I know on Amazon etc they have options you can click.

That ones easy. It's just a simple setting in the board's software which I've already changed a couple of times. I think it was originally 15 posts per page and I bumped it up to 25 or 30, then to 40. I can change it to any number we like. But I think we have to be careful not to make it too big. Personally, I find smaller pages easier to navigate because I don't have to scroll as much. But bigger pages mean that posts stay on page one longer, which is why I've increased it in the past. I'm happy to increase it further if enough people think that's a good idea. Shall we try 50? Or more? Or do some people already find it too long at 40?

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 19, 2011, 10:12:17 AMThis topic is about the proposed minor reorganisation of the Post Your Work boards and the philosophy/direction/focus of Songcrafters. We welcome further ideas on that topic, but it's time to put a stop to any further discussion of the merits of backing tracks here. It's not relevant to this topic.

Sai: You're obviously very angry with me. I don't know what I've said that upset you but I'm sorry if you feel offended. I mean no disrespect to you or any other member of Songcrafters. I suggest that you take a week or two to calm down, then if you still feel the need to champion the use of backing tracks, start a new topic on that subject. Please don't post any further comments here in this topic based on your enthusiam for backing tracks. It's not helping and it's derailing the topic we're trying to discuss here.

Everyone: No more discussion of the merits of backing tracks here. If you must discuss it, do so in a new topic.

Thank you.

I am actually quite calm right now. Not sure why you are still mentioning the "championing of backing tracks" though. I thought that specific part of the discussion was over in my talk with Dave. I haven't even mentioned backing tracks, except to maybe reference the board, in my last few posts. I could be wrong though.

I am bit dumbfounded that you are confused about why I am angry though, since I've stated why rather clearly in the last few posts I've made. Even TC Elliot made mention that your continued habit of calling member efforts karaoke and practice sessions was not helping. Ah, which you've just commented on.



So... not mentioning BTs, and staying on the topic of "the philosophy/direction/focus of songcrafters"... Hmm...

Well, 64g, my opinion is that changing the focus to member only original solos and collabs is not in the best interest of this board. General Originals and Collabs, and even complete Covers, definitely. But why the member only focus? I am confused about this? Is it really the majority of the members that want a members only focus?

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 19, 2011, 10:32:36 AMI was referring specifically to Andrew's comment about "somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track". In my humble opinion, that's guitar karaoke. But I didn't mean to imply that all backing track usage is guitar karaoke. I'm sure that some people put a great deal of time and effort into their recordings that use backing tracks and I didn't mean to imply that such recordings are also guitar karaoke. My comment was only about the 10-minute noodle which involves very little time and effort and shouldn't be taken very seriously. Sorry for not making that clear in my original comment.

Quite honestly I was infuriated. I for one spent weeks at a time, several hours a day learning to play a solo, and to have it referred to as a 10 minute noodle put me in full combat mode.

I appreciate that you revisited the comment to clarify, Thank you.

If you want to end the conversation regarding backing tracks, perhaps it's time to end this thread in its entirety. Any good that could be gleaned from this thread has already happened. Eliminating discussion on a point which still has validity, yet not ending the rest of the discussion shows not only preferential treatment, but a level of disdain towards select members.

I vote for the lock.

I must admit, I feel no need for a "members only on recordings" focus. As I understand it, the proposals wouldn't make the site itself "members only", just certain boards. But I still feel a little uncomfortable about the idea of boards where certain active members cannot post their latest masterpiece because it doesn't qualify in some way (for example, the girlfriend's mates got together to do the backing vocals because the member can't do female vocals because he's a bloke).

I'm sure there must be a valid reason for trying out this idea, and it won't stop me, but I do feel uncomfortable about folks not being able to use guest musicians to realise their vision.

Another example is a songwriter that can't perform well enough to do a demo that does justice to his or her material. All the literature about songwriting says "get the best you can on your demo". So a songwriter with recording/arranging ability gets his/her song together, is a member of songcrafters, but has to post to the general category.

OK, it's still posted, but the general vibe I'm getting on here is that the DIY boards will be "it". I think I can see and feel some of what Sai is seeing and feeling - I'm getting an impression of an elitist section that we can all post in if we qualify. Some never will qualify, but they're actually better than I am at what we do - first songcrafting, and then recording those songs. I qualify purely because I have the extra talents of playing multiple instruments and being able to sing to my (and many other people's) satisfaction.


The other thing that's worried me in this thread is various people arguing that collaboration is what songcrafter's is all about. The way the posts are going, it makes me feel, umm... strange. Collaboration is most definitely NOT what songcrafters is about for me. If one had to collaborate to be here, I would not be a member. Unless I'm completely on my own here, I think we, as a bunch, need to acknowledge that collaboration is what drives some, and not what drives others.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 19, 2011, 10:53:28 AMI'm happy to increase it further if enough people think that's a good idea. Shall we try 50? Or more? Or do some people already find it too long at 40?

Second question. Is it possible to set it up so that each user can have a custom views per page? I just took a look and I think the 40 is working pretty well... 50 might be the outer limit, though. Dunnae. It's actually more per page than I thought. And I've liked it recently.. or at least not noticed it being bad or too short of a page.

okay this issue might not matter as much. Thanks for the response.

And Andy proved me wrong about the good being gleaned..... Great post, and it reflects exactly what I am seeing as well.

Quote from: AndyR on June 19, 2011, 11:23:36 AMI must admit, I feel no need for a "members only on recordings" focus. As I understand it, the proposals wouldn't make the site itself "members only", just certain boards. But I still feel a little uncomfortable about the idea of boards where certain active members cannot post their latest masterpiece because it doesn't qualify in some way (for example, the girlfriend's mates got together to do the backing vocals because the member can't do female vocals because he's a bloke).

This idea that people "cannot post their latest masterpiece because it doesn't qualify" keeps coming up and I keep trying to assure everyone that it's simply not true. Everything that qualifies for posting at Songcrafters now will continue to qualify after the changes. It's only a question of which board it will be posted in. A lot of members seem to be under the impression that they have some sort of right to post all of their songs in the most popular board, whichever it might be, but at the same time they want to be able to ignore other people's posts in a board which they're less interested in. Sorry, but that's not possible, nor is it fair.

(Note: On re-reading your comment, I realised that you were objecting to posts not qualifying in certain boards rather than the whole site. Sorry for my mistake but I didn't want to change my comments above because I think they make some important points. As for posts not qualifying for certain boards, that will be true no matter what criteria we use to divide the boards. It would be pointless to have multiple boards but allow members to post in any board they like. Posts have to meet certain qualifications in any board. It's not a judgement on the value of the post. It's just a classification to allow people to choose the posts which interest them most.)

QuoteI do feel uncomfortable about folks not being able to use guest musicians to realise their vision.

But folks can use guest musicians to realise their vision. It's only a question of which board those posts will go in. We have no intention of preventing or discouraging members from working with non-members. We only want to keep that work separate from the work of our members.

QuoteI'm getting an impression of an elitist section that we can all post in if we qualify. Some never will qualify, but they're actually better than I am at what we do - first songcrafting, and then recording those songs. I qualify purely because I have the extra talents of playing multiple instruments and being able to sing to my (and many other people's) satisfaction.

Any division of the Post Your Work category into separate boards runs the risk of being called elitist or unfair to those who post in the less popular boards. Does it really matter how we divide it? Isn't it enough just to have a place where your posts are welcome and appreciated? Are musicians so egotistical that they can't bear the thought of another musician's song getting more listens? Personally, I don't care which board my posts go in. Up until now, I think everything I've done has been either just me or a collaboration with other members. But that could change. If I was lucky enough to join a local band, I'd be happy to post our songs in the Bands board. Or if I met another musician with similar interests who didn't want to become a member of Songcrafters, I'd be happy to post our collaborations in whatever board we decide on for those, regardless of its popularity. As long as I got 2 or 3 comments to assure me that my post wasn't a complete waste of time, I'd be happy. Sure, comments make me feel good. But it's not a competition where the member with the most comments wins. And I have no need to have my ego stroked with 4 pages of comments.

And we don't consider DIY music to be better than other music. We just enjoy it more. It's where our personal interests lie. And, based on discussions on this site over the last few years, we believe that most of our members share that interest. Isn't it the right of the owner of this site and the rest of the administration team to define the focus of the site according to our own interests, especially when we're trying very hard to make sure we don't exclude people with different interests? I think that most people will be pleased with the changes once they get used to them. For the few who are not, we'll happily refund your money. Hell, we'll give you double your money back! And as punishment for our selfish desire to slightly alter the site according to our own interests, we'll take a pay cut. Since this is mostly my fault, I should be punished the most severely, so cut my pay in half!  ;)

When i made my politically correct and flippant response to this thread back back on page 6, i was little a hung over and running behind in the A.M. Now, here on Sunday after giving the time to read this thread more carefully, I, a man of few words, feel necessary to blather on a bit.

First, like in any healthy relationship, a little argument is healthy- and by all accounts this is truly a very robust group at this site.

So many great points were made, whether on topic or not.

What i have distilled from this memo is, admin (the collective) wants to cover their ass from copyright infringement. That's completely reasonable. That should be the foremost consideration. My ass wont be in as much trouble for posting the remake of "Purple Rain" as the site owner would be- i guess. So this is truly a valid concern for admin.

Early on after being on this site a while I started seeing members posting solos over bt's , and I must admit,i didn't care for those posts. Yes okay maybe it was snobbery on my part, I'll own that. Maybe because I've always built my own stuff from the ground up.

A couple years back, I listened to Sai's work and some others as well,and was impressed not only their respective talents, but also with usefulness of bt's. In fact i participated in a challenge i think it was called shine and OHR added his mojo as well.(remember the serial shagger thing )

I guess what I'm trying to say is,these are fun and very beneficial, I use a slew of them in my mbr when i play at gatherings just for yucks. But with the focus of this site being "songcrafting" and the possible legal ramifications of bt's, maybe it's time we stop the bt's all together.

Wait, don't flame me just yet, i have a great amount of respect for members that love the bt's- but in the spirit of covering admin's ass-maybe it's time.

As far as member only recordings, i feel that at least one member need be in a band recording or collab. I don't see a necessity to distinguish recordings that are made entirely by members and recordings that have only partial membership.

Nigel made a lot great points as well, It is overwhelming how many posts there are. I find myself hearing stuff for the first time simply because a thread was bumped and caught my eye the 2nd time around. And commenting on everything is difficult to do. Hall of shame member here i guess.
Likewise, i find myself lurking more than i care to admit.

 I too found this site when i was looking for more technical info on the boss recorders. This site has evolved into what it is currently- a songwriting site.

I applaud admin for trying to appease all the members here. You won't be able to make everyone happy I'm afraid.

I'm sorry for pissing off anyone here- this site has been one the most intelligently behaved sites I've ever had the pleasure to be a part of.

Loops?-as long as the loops you use in a recording are royalty free, it shouldn't matter if they're drum, bass, special effect-whatever-they need just be legal.and that is the responsibility of the songwriter.

Enough blathering rambles for now

I truly hope those who are offended by this post understand the spirit in which i submit this.

Respectfully
Ron

64, your posts are getting more snippy and biased by the count. I'd definitely feel the same if I were in your shoes, so maybe it's time for you to take a back seat and let one of the other admins continue the discussion for a while?

QuoteAre musicians so egotistical that they can't bear the thought of another musician's song getting more listens?

That's an obvious yes, hell you've proved in this thread, along with various others, at least from the perspective of a guy who allegedly spend 10 minutes doing a karaoke guitar solo...... Add that to others who are concerned that there's going to be an onslaught of backer posts pushing their hard earned efforts to page 2...... Fuck yeah, that certainly qualifies as EGO. Oops, I should have censored out the reference to backing tracks....

You'd be happy with 2 or 3 comments? Start posting a few songs, then talk about how 2 or 3 comments feel while plenty of other people get 20. Yep, there's ego there too.

DIY isn't better, we just enjoy it more? WOW nice. Our personal interests. I'm glad you're not speaking on my behalf, because my personal interest is to show compassion and good will to the the rest of the forum members.

There seems to be a great push to exclude people with different interests, considering we don't want to exclude people with different interests.

The most important question is, Why are you on an island with barely any other admin speaking up? You're left holding the bag in this thread, and taking all the shit, including this post. Right now, those who oppose this change are addressing you exclusively, because you're the only one interacting. That's a fucking travesty. If the rest of the admin group feels these proposed changes are for the good of the community, then stand the fuck up, make the changes and end this train wreck of a thread.

I'm officially off this bus. I'm almost positive that not a single post I've made in this thread has served any purpose what so ever.

64, I really hope you take the opportunity to walk away from this thread, there's no need for you taking the brunt of all the rebuttal alone.

Tony W and Saijinn are both care quite a bit to be this passionate about how they feel. 64g and the entire admin staff deserve credit and respect for the efforts they've put into this site. I've tried out several other song posting sites and always come back to this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest, imo.

But calling 64g **edit** 's posts **/edit** snippy when other posts in here are as snippy or more so isn't helpful at all. From what I see the real objection is in the description of users of backing tracks and non DIY posts as defined here. But really, think about it.  From what I can tell, if certain adjectives weren't used then the argument would have ceased by now.

The admin staff sees a need for a division so as not all posts are on one board. Dividing 100% member posts from all the other posts is the most fair i can think of. Lyrics and BT posts are mostly ignored now. After the change they'll be right next to posts that I currently put in originals (with backing vox and additions from my London friends.) That means I'll see them where as right now I don't. Maybe I'm lazy, but the number of posts/comments in those threads is telling. If this helps even a little bit then it's worth it.
(But if what I read is true, that Tony W and the rest go to a different site for BT etc, that would explain why they aren't as popular here. If many of the members that post in originals went to a different site that board would be a lot slower as well.)

What other division works better? Seriously. I haven't heard a suggestion I like better. I, too, was originally skeptical to say the least. But I'm giving the admin staff the benefit of the doubt. I do NOT think the intent of these changes is to make the site worse for anyone.

64 guitars speaks for all admins on the forum. We keep out of these things as individuals generally to avoid mixing messages. We discuss things between ourselves and 64 has a good way way with words. I don't care who has a swipe, as long as there is a constructive intent.

The normal rules apply to this thread as they do to any other thread on the board. As long as things do not become a personal attack then we let it ride. But we are not here to be aunt sallies. I know that passions are running high, but keep it civil. 

I forgot to mention covers should go bye bye too unless the copyright is public domain or the poster has rights to use the cover.

problem solved-less boards needed

Quote from: guitarron on June 19, 2011, 03:42:49 PMWhat i have distilled from this memo is, admin (the collective) wants to cover their ass from copyright infringement. That's completely reasonable. That should be the foremost consideration. My ass wont be in as much trouble for posting the remake of "Purple Rain" as the site owner would be- i guess. So this is truly a valid concern for admin.

....But with the focus of this site being "songcrafting" and the possible legal ramifications of bt's, maybe it's time we stop the bt's all together.

Wait, don't flame me just yet, i have a great amount of respect for members that love the bt's- but in the spirit of covering admin's ass-maybe it's time.

I agree.
A point to underline: since, quoting guitarron, the focus of the site is "songcrafting", IMHO there is to distinguish between "ready" backing tracks, already available on the internet, and "homemade", "songcrafted"  :D backing tracks coming to birth on this site for the very first time.
I mean, in most of my songs/arrangements, both originals and covers, I use BIAB to make my own backing tracks (...and making a good backing track this way requires often many, many hours of careful choices, arranging and so on, but this is not the point...). By this point of view, no legal problem is involved, since buying BIAB, I know that all the files (backing tracks) that I will create using this software are royalty free.
The same for loops. Usually loops are royalty free.

Again, guitarron's considerations open again a problem that after so many messages isn't clear to me: are we talking about (absolutely reasonable) legal problems, or, as in the thread's title, about Songcrafters' philosophy? And (this too isn't clear to me yet) in what way a change in the web site's philosophy can solve the legal issues?

Alfredo

Hi 64 - from the way you were quoting it, I'm not entirely sure you got the gist of what I was trying to say, sorry I didn't get it across properly.

I'm not actually objecting to anything myself, you guys must do what you think needs doing, but I think you need to be aware of what some members are thinking about it and how some might potentially feel later. I personally would be happy if it all went in one big pot, I have no problem with my stuff disappearing off the front page, it always seems to come back sooner or later, and who cares if it doesn't? It's there for someone to find if they get interested in my name.

I'm just feeling a little uneasy about some of the language that's been used to describe things. My uneasiness didn't arise from the original post with the proposal, I was very happy with the ideas at first. My uneasiness actually comes from the some of the replies posted to other people's concerns. I definitely have the impression now that you and some others will regard the DIY boards containing stuff played by members only as "the place to be" on songcrafters - that might not be what you intend, but that's how it's coming across to me. My examples of non-performing writers and people who need to use singers they know because they're the wrong sex themselves will be excluded from this "place to be", or at least as it stands at the moment - and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I wish I could explain to you why I feel uncomfortable. I'll try, but it won't be very clear. It's something to do with how amazing but how fragile creativity is. And how wonderful this site has been for nurturing creativity. Any perception of specialness or worthiness, no matter how well-meaning the actions that have caused it, has a negative flip-side. I don't particularly give a monkey's about people like me, or Greeny, or orh, or geir, or you name them - we are still fragile but we're "in" and we know it. It would take a major campaign to deflate most of us (apologies if any of you are feeling artistically fragile at the moment). I'm worried about the people who are just starting, who are taking their first steps to get their stuff "out there". It might be that these measures will have no effect on these people at all, but I wouldn't be feeling uncomfortable if I was convinced that that was the case. Any obstacle to acceptance by your peers is another nail in your creativity. Anyone who leaves or has left songcrafters because they feel excluded has had their creativity damaged by the rest of us... we're all responsible for it... but we won't even know what we've done to them because they'll just disappear feeling sad and not good enough to make music. I know that's the risk we all take by posting anything, and we're meant to be grown-ups. But we're all fragile when it comes to self expression. What if this idea of "all members only DIY boards" for the sake of... (I don't know, why do we want/need it, what does it satisfy?) ... what if this idea does actually create a perception of the "in" and the "not so in" crowd? Unless I've misunderstood his posts, and I hope I have, there's already a guy on another thread who seems to be worrying that his songs aren't original enough because he's using the drum machine on his keyboard!!! Is this what we want?

To be honest, if you were able to market the DIY boards as "only post in here if you couldn't get anyone other than yourself or the usual suspects to play on it" then I wouldn't feel uncomfortable at all - that's exactly where I'd be wanting to post :D (but, it would have a whole load of issues in the other direction!)


I've got to go to bed. Peace - and, like I said at the top, you're the guys running it, you must do what you think is the right thing to do. I wouldn't want your job on here or the stuff that's getting chucked at you, and I value that you're all prepared to take it on. 64G, you must have had a particularly difficult weekend because of this thread - I wish I could think of something better to say than thanks for putting up with it.

Quote from: The Despicable Flash Harry on June 18, 2011, 01:38:57 PMIf it's a JustInFest, I'm leaving...

I think that Tim wouldn't be far behind

Too bloody right!

Unless it's a 'Just in Beaver' fest I'm not interested, lol.

Make music, not war.

Participate and grow.

What's so hard about that?

My final comment would be try to keep things inclusive and try to avoid any more "us and them" feelings if possible.

But ultimately the admin team runs things and now owns the site. If you want a specific direction and focus, it's yours to state and say. You have all the hard work of running the site (which is much appreciated, please don't think otherwise) so at the end of the day the final decisions are yours and we should respect them.

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: Greeny on June 20, 2011, 03:41:08 AMMake music, not war.
Participate and grow.
What's so hard about that?

Wise words !!!!

Quote from: Songcrafter front pageWelcome, friend!

Welcome to our home recording and songwriting community. Here you can share your music and thoughts, and also get technical support on the recording aspect.

I think the spirit of songcrafters is the friendly, supportive nature of the members. It's a great place to grow as a musician/songwriter. It's a great place to make new friends. This wouldn't have been so if not for all the work the admin team has done to make it possible. 

I have not had much time to participate on here recently, but I have been caught up in this thread, and must have read every comment on this intriguing subject.
Being only a minor player on the Forum, I hope I can still give an opinion and make suggestions. Looking at this from the outside, I think 64 and the admins do need (and are trying) to cover their backs with regard to the copyright situation as they feel they would be held responsible if legal action occurred.
Surely it would be sensible to make the boards which may have copyright issues which can be challenged, into members' only boards. On signing for membership everyone should complete a disclaimer on line, to say they accept they have the rights or ownership to the parts that they posts and they are not subject to copyright. They should also sign or agree to say it is they who accept the responsibility of the post and not the administration of the board. A disclaimer to say the administrators would cancel any membership of anyone violating this, would take the onus from the administrators if any action took place. 
Sorry if I am talking out of turn, but this may help resolve the copyright issue which is suggested could be serious if legal action is taken.

What an intense thread. I can't really understand what all the hoo-haa is about.

      So the comment I'm about to add is not intended to offend, and concerns the matter of member only submissions.

      I took this to mean that the member who posted song X made at least one/some/all of the noises.

   I have literally hundreds of recordings of songs that I have produced, engineered and mixed. And as I am incredibly fortunate to have people here who like the shit I do, I'm sure that on hearing these recordings it would be agreed that the songs have a huge flavour of 'henwrench'. That some kind of 'henwrench' DNA runs through the songs. And so it should. I did produce the songs.
    But there is no way I would post the songs here, 'cos they are not songs that I found in my brain. I found them in somebody elses brain and merely helped and suggested ways of delivering the song, albeit in a manner becoming of 'henwrench'. A kind of 'What would henwrench do?' interpretation.

     To summise...I think what the Admin team are trying to say is.....

      Don't post shit here unless you (the member) made at least one/some/all of the noises.


                                                                           henwrench

I kind of agree with you henny on much of what you say - I've even got bunches of recordings of bands I was in that I have no intention of posting here (or anywhere else, for that matter). In my case it's mainly because I can't be @rsed to get the other band member's permission :D. But it's also because they were recorded in studios of various levels of "professional" (actually my BR1600 contains more sh1t than two of them did put together!) All the songs are mine however, and I am probably making the most noise on them, but I ain't posting them as "me" unless I re-record them "solo".

I've also sometimes helped record some other folks in a rather ham-fisted way on home recording gear. I wouldn't dream of posting the older ones. HOWEVER... I might be keen on posting one if I did it now on the BR kit, even if I hadn't played on it, because it would be an example of my growing engineering/producing skills in a home recording environment. I did always think that was one of the ideas behind songcrafters myself...

Actually, from what 64G's said, or my understanding of it, it would be ok to post this, in the General board.

Unless we've misunderstood, the folks in this thread who are expressing concerns around this area are expressing concerns because there is a proposed distinction between:

A: None or at least one/some of the noises were made by one or more members (can go in General)
and
B: All of the noises (except drums) must have been made by one or more members (can go in DIY)

I see why the distinction, and it makes sense. I'll actually be free to post whatever I want to wherever I want.

However, some, not all by any means, but some of the folks that I have looked up to on here will not have that freedom anymore (unless they learn to play guitar, get a sex change, or convince a bunch of other people to join a forum they might not want to join). These folk will have to post in General. And this is the cruncher for me: that makes me want to post in General as well, and ignore the DIY threads (for posting purposes, at least, and in my experience it means I won't be going by the DIY threads that often if I'm not posting in them). There's another reason for me wanting to post in General - it feels more of a challenge. Although I'm a confirmed DIYer, I like my posts fighting with all manner of other posts from people who are using stuff not allowed in DIY... When I record, I'm actually trying to hide the fact I'm a DIYer, I want it to sound like a bunch of dudes in a room - so I want it compared that stuff.

Anyway, I'm waffling again.

Like Nigel said, so much more clearly than I can - I think we need to "try to keep things inclusive and try to avoid any more "us and them" feelings if possible".

I'm free to do what I want under the proposals, I'm not actually too much bothered either way. But I could see a bunch of people on this thread expressing some sort of fear. And when I thought about it on saturday, I realised that they could be right and I ought to pay some attention while opinions are being sought. And I realised I have the same fear - a General and DIY split does have a strong potential to introduce a further "us and them" to songcrafters.

If that is actually the intention, funnily enough, I still have no big issue with it :D. We just all need to be aware that some folks we imagined were "us" might actually turn out to be "them", including ourselves!

Quote from: alfstone on June 19, 2011, 04:19:59 PMI mean, in most of my songs/arrangements, both originals and covers, I use BIAB to make my own backing tracks (...and making a good backing track this way requires often many, many hours of careful choices, arranging and so on, but this is not the point...).

I'm not very familiar with BiaB so please forgive me (and correct me) if I make some wrong assumptions about it. But isn't it fair to say that BiaB allows you to arrange short phrases (loops?) recorded by professional musicians or generated by the software? So the arrangement of the backing track is yours but the performance is not. None of the instruments in the backing track would actually be played by you, they'd be played by a professional musician or generated by the software. Is that correct?

If that's correct, then I don't think songs which use BiaB should be posted in the same board as songs where the member actually played every instrument. It's a whole different kind of music creation.

What if someone posted a song which was created entirely in BiaB? Should that be allowed? As I've said many times, songs posted in any Post Your Work board must have at least some member performance. But how much member performance is enough? If someone created a song enitirely in BiaB, then added some cowbell which they performed themselves, is that enough? Should it be allowed in the DIY board? It's crystal clear to me that the answer is no. The cowbell performance is too trivial. The song is not a member performance regardless of the cowbell and it doesn't belong in the DIY board. But how can we manage the DIY board if we're to sometimes allow the use of BiaB but other times not, based on the amount of member performance in the song? How do we measure it? How much is enough? It's too subjective and becomes a nightmare for the admin team to manage. Every time we move a post out of the DIY board because we feel it doesn't have enough member content, the member will argue that it does have enough member content and that he's being treated unfairly because we've allowed other songs which he feels have no more member performed content than his. So I think it's not possible to allow BiaB to be used in DIY posts only some of the time. We either have to allow it all of the time or never. If my assumptions about BiaB are correct, then I think it should never be allowed in the DIY boards. The same applies to backing tracks, loops, and midi files for the same reasons. They are not member performances, and including varying amounts of member performances with them isn't enough to justify their inclusion in the DIY boards.

I had a quick look at the home page for BiaB and read this description:


Again, I may be wrong about BiaB because I'm not familiar with it, and I don't mean to belittle your BiaB work, Alfredo. I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort into it and the results sound fantastic. But the description above makes it sound like very little musical training and skill is needed to make good sounding music with BiaB. I'm sure your musical abilities allow you to create a much better song with BiaB than a non-musician could. But it sounds like BiaB is designed so that even a non-musician could create pretty good music.

To illustrate my point, have a look at this site:  http://soundation.com/studio (http://soundation.com/studio)

I think a child with no music training could learn to use that site and make great-sounding music with little effort. You just pick a loop you like, drag it to a channel, then adjust the length for as many measures as you want it to repeat. Here's something I created on my first visit to the site in a very short time:



Most of my time at this site was spent learning the software. If I had already been familiar with the software, this would have taken about 5 minutes to create. I think it sounds great, but should I be allowed to post it in the DIY board? Absolutely not! I didn't play a single note on this. A child with no music training could create a song at least as good as this one, given enough time to learn the software. So I think any use of tools like this which substitute pre-recorded or automatically-generated performances for the member's own playing should not be posted in the same board as songs which were actually performed by the member. They're still welcome on the site, but we'll have to find another board for them. I'm not sure which board that should be.

64g, was right... I was definitely being as ass. I'll keep my anger in check.

Quote from: AndyRA: None or at least one/some of the noises were made by one or more members (can go in General)
and
B: All of the noises (except drums) must have been made by one or more members (can go in DIY)

I see why the distinction, and it makes sense. I'll actually be free to post whatever I want to wherever I want.

Excellent post Andy. This is was one of the other things that started my frustration initially. I kept asking about this, and I would only get comments about backers.  ???

My problem with it working the way you put it above, is that most of what is done right now, in the Original and Cover boards will certainly qualify for B (DIY). And since Tributes is going to Covers, Collabs are keeping a board, that leaves Backers and Members who used outsiders to perform and record for the A (General) board.

Quote from: 64gWe only want to keep that work separate from the work of our members.

Why? You have yet to actually answer this question. I think most of us would be interested to hear WHY you think Tangled Wires would not be allowed to post in the same place as Jemima's Kite.

Is ANYONE here willing to say that they would prefer to listen Jemima's Kite over Tangled Wires for the sole reason that Tangled Wires is not an all member band? It is this, that has me the most confused. Why make this "members only" distinction at all?

Comments regarding BiaB... please correct me if I am wrong...

Since it sounds like you are saying that BiaB is similar to using backers, then it is understandable why YOU would NOT want them posting in the same place. But then why are real musician recorded bands like Tangled Wires being treated the same? There is no way anyone can say that actual bands should be classified in the same manner. Is it the same?

I see a community whose primary focus is on making cool original music and original takes for classic covers. It has nothing to due with it being recorded by ONLY members. Am I really just this wrong on this issue?

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 20, 2011, 11:50:41 AM

Quote from: 64gWe only want to keep that work separate from the work of our members.

Why? You have yet to actually answer this question. I think most of us would be interested to hear WHY you think Tangled Wires would not be allowed to post in the same place as Jemima's Kite.

I think the prevailing opinion is that one board is not enough. It's an assumption on one hand and a popularly held opinion on the other. I tend to agree.

If we hold that stance then the question becomes how do we separate posts? DIY vs non DIY may be arbitrary but no more than any other division that has been proposed. And possibly better than most.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 20, 2011, 11:50:41 AMIs ANYONE here willing to say that they would prefer to listen Jemima's Kite over Tangled Wires for the sole reason that Tangled Wires is not an all member band? It is this, that has me the most confused. Why make this "members only" distinction at all?

Since the decision not to use one board has been made there has to be a division of some sort if we aren't going to use one board. Again, is DIY vs non DIY any better or worse than Originals vs covers vs backers vs lyric only vs whatever?

Thanks TC

I do think DIY vs non-DIY is a very different kind of division than Original vs Covers vs Backers etc.

For one thing, it takes a very big majority of members and places them in one group set apart from the other. It tells members that because they do not fit into an ideal, that few of us hold, you will not be allowed to post with the others.

The other type of division is nothing more than standard musical classification by descriptors. It doesn't single anyone out for NOT conforming to the WAY someone does something. It is this that can, and should, be streamlined.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 20, 2011, 11:12:32 AMI'm not very familiar with BiaB so please forgive me (and correct me)...

In the case of BIAB they are fragments of phrases, not loops, but this doesn't matter...

Honestly, since this site is so kind to host my songs, I don't care at all if in the future I will have to upload them in a "General" section and not in a DIY one. You decide the philosophy of Songcrafters, and anyway it's OK for me, no problem...

BUT...

...again and again, could someone please explain me if we are talking about philosophy of a web site, or about legal issues? Am I wrong, or has been someone of the forum staff who raised the legal problems?

By this point of view, I agree 100% with guitarron: if the web site - reasonably - needs to be sure by the legal point of view, well, for the future no covers at all and no pre-recorded backing tracks at all. Even if that means no festivals. And a strong fall of posts.

In other words, dear sessantaquattrochitarre, since the beginning of this thread I keep on having the sensation that we (all) are talking about 2 (two!) very different aspects (...legal/philosophy...), and that the answers we receive from you are mainly concentrated on the philosophy side, while everything remains confused for the legal side.

Apart from that, if you want my opinion about the philosophy of a site called Songcrafters, well, for all the reasons you quoted about BIAB or loops (not played by us), I expect that since for each cover we didn't compose the music nor the lyrics, no cover at all should go on a DIY (Do It Yourself) section.  ;D

In the DIY ONLY originals with everything performed by members.

It's just for a matter of coherence...

Alfredo

A question I have is;

If there is a worry that Covers and other materials on here may hold a risk of attracting legal proceedings however unlikely, couldn't we just eliminate the ability to allow listeners to 'download' in turn distributing the illegal material. By this I mean you can listen but effectively can't take the music away from this site. If members want to share music they can do it in the background. Would this help?

Apologies if this question is utter crap, it was I thought I had earlier in the day. ???

Flip! That clip does sound good, 64G, I had no idea this stuff was possible.

But you posting it has made me realise that I have a completely different attitude to what a song is, and that's where some of my own discomfort was coming from.

That clip you've cooked up is no where near being a song in my mind. It's a nice groove with some cute instrumentation, created with a songwriting/demoing tool. But there is no song there yet for me to get excited about... (if I'd been doing it, I mean)

Now as a songwriter, I'd have no issue at all in using that tool to create song demos. I'd still have to write the song to go with it. The whole point of recording a song demo is to present the song in its best light so that someone else can hear its potential. If a tool like this does it, then it's a very valid tool for a songwriter to use. (Mebbe not for an instrumental composer, I see that... but I am thinking of someone like me, verses and choruses.)

If the songwriter is also trying to demonstrate their performance prowess - eg it's an artiste demo, not a song demo - then obviously this tool is somewhat, er, deceptive at the least! :D

Now, on the "Songcrafter's direction/philosophy". I think this is where some of us might have been missing the point (eg me). A "songcrafter" to me is a song writer, not a performer.

I therefore wasn't at all keen on the name change to songcrafters, because I felt it might exclude people who aren't wanting to write songs, but who want to make better recordings, get better at their instrument, trade ideas with like-minded folk, etc. I was ok personally though, because I'm primarily a songwriter in my mind, I have no intention of subjecting myself to performing again, but I do like to show off my chops from time to time. The thing is though, everything original I post is to demonstrate a song, first and foremost. I'm also quite proud that I've managed to get proficient enough on various instruments and studio trickery to make it sound like real instruments with decent performers were backing the singer on my demos. But first and foremost it's the song for me, and how, as the songwriter, I think it should be presented.

I now see where I think you (and probably others) are coming from - by "songs", you seem to mean recordings of one performance of what I call the song. I'm afraid I've never regarded a "song" as its recording. But if the consensus is that we are regarding it that way here, then of course, the boards labelled DIY cannot possibly be a home to recordings that have outside performance on them.

I think we need to recognise though that the name "songcrafters", as well as misleading me, has, I believe, attracted some who are also songwriters only, and some cannot perform their own creations to show them off in the best light. A songwriter does not have to be a musician to write good songs. We have other songwriters and composers who can play instruments, but not the ones they need on the demo of the song they've written. And they have access to various methods, including outside musicians, of getting the song down in a listenable state.

If we can make it clear somewhere that DIY has it's restrictions because we regard them as artist demos, but that song demos, lovingly crafted or whatever with whatever it takes, live in General - then most of my concerns disappear in a puff of smoke.

Obviously, someone like me, because of how I create my demos, can post in either as I see fit. As can many other folks on here.



I hope that makes some kind of sense...

Stick with it guys :)

(And now I better read what others have posted while I was struggling over the above :D)

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 20, 2011, 12:13:10 PMThanks TC

I do think DIY vs non-DIY is a very different kind of division than Original vs Covers vs Backers etc.

For one thing, it takes a very big majority of members and places them in one group set apart from the other. It tells members that because they do not fit into an ideal, that few of us hold, you will not be allowed to post with the others.

The other type of division is nothing more than standard musical classification by descriptors. It doesn't single anyone out for NOT conforming to the WAY someone does something. It is this that can, and should, be streamlined.

I see your point. Only speaking for myself... I've posted several songs with help from friends who are not members of the site. I intend to post songs from the band which are 3/4 not members of this site. I also do a lot of recordings in which I do everything from writing to playing to recording to mixing to posting. I, for one, will be on more than one board. For me that makes me pay attention to the posts I don't pay attention to now. At the very least it will expose some of them to me. And I do try to listen to new members postings which, I would assume, tend to be more in the lines of backers and covers. If that means I get to see them when I normally wouldn't then that's an improvement.

Quote from: alfstone on June 20, 2011, 12:32:31 PM...again and again, could someone please explain me if we are talking about philosophy of a web site, or about legal issues? Am I wrong, or has been someone of the forum staff who raised the legal problems?

Sorry. I've been meaning to address this issue but there are so many other posts to read and reply to that I haven't had time. When this topic started, it was my intention to reply to every post in the order they were posted. But, by the time I got to page 3, there were already 9 or 10 pages of posts! I realised there's no way I'll ever be able to reply to every post, so I started being selective. Unfortunately, that means that many great questions and comments will not be answered promptly, if at all. But we're certainly reading all of them and we'll consider all of your comments when making our final decision.

Someone brought up the legality of backers (it might have even been me. I don't recall). But somehow it got a bit out of hand. Although it's a very important matter which comes up often in admin discussions, I never meant for it to be part of this discussion. This topic is about the proposed minor reorganization and the philosophy of Songcrafters. The admin discussions began with the question of whether recent posts using looped vocal samples belong in the Original Songs board. We decided they don't, but we have no suitable board to put them in. That led to discussions of reorganizing the boards. In those discussions, we also brought up other issues which have been bothering us for some time, like the growing number of posts which have lots of non-member performances and not much member performance (often only one member playing one part). We questioned whether this was good for the site and agreed that it wasn't. So we discussed an emphasis on DIY posts as far as the focus of the site and came up with the board structure presented here.

Before finishing on the legal discussion, let me clear up the issue of the legality of covers. Yes, we're aware that covers also have legal issues. But we're not as concerned about those right now for a couple of reasons. As Flash Harry pointed out, covers only present a legal question in terms of songwriter/music publisher copyright. The recordings and performance are ours. But some backing tracks (not all) are direct rip-offs of commercial recordings. So they're protected by copyright in the recording, the performance (the musicians who made it), and the writing/publishing. So these will interest not only the music publishers but also the RIAA and similar organisations, as well as possibly lawyers representing the musicians, musicians unions, and who knows what else. For these reasons, we're more concerned about that sort of backer than we are about covers. The other thing about covers is that losing them would be a significant change to the site. Covers are very popular here, especially in the festivals. But, if we were contacted by the law about covers, we would (reluctantly) take that section down. Actually, let me correct myself. We wouldn't take it down. We'd just insist that all of the songs covered are legal. For example, there's nothing illegal about covering the original songs posted here by our members. And there are lots of public domain songs which could be covered legally. But, for the time being, we'll continue to allow any covers. I don't know the law, but from things I've read on the web, our current covers aren't necessarily illegal anyway. We're just worried that they might be. You hear things about "fair use" and other things that allow copyright works to be used in certain situations. We don't sell anything and we don't charge a membership fee, plus we're not a hugely popular site compared to many others. Does that mean our covers are legal under fair usage? I don't know. The other thing I've heard is that the publishers, RIAA, etc. have to send you a letter stating that you've violated their copyright and request that you remove the files in question. If you comply, I don't think there's anything further they can do. But I could be wrong, and it might only apply in the USA anyway.

QuoteApart from that, if you want my opinion about the philosophy of a site called Songcrafters, well, for all the reasons you quoted about BIAB or loops (not played by us), I expect that since for each cover we didn't compose the music nor the lyrics, no cover at all should go on a DIY (Do It Yourself) section.  ;D

In the DIY ONLY originals with everything performed by members.

DIY isn't about the songwriting. It's about the song performance. So covers are welcome if everything is performed by one or more members.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 20, 2011, 11:50:41 AMI see a community whose primary focus is on making cool original music and original takes for classic covers. It has nothing to due with it being recorded by ONLY members.

agreed- i don't see any point to segregating posts -besides why would it be necessary for every band member to recordists-usually its one two people in a band that has the equipment and gumption to record and mix anyway.

i am missing the point i guess

this is getting tiresome

oh and the loops thing-
i see where the distinction with biab type midi tracks/loops-in my earlier post i was referring to audio loops-
loops are another instrument these days-creative use of loops is songwriting too- maybe not in the traditional way, but it is certainly part of the craft these days.
 as long as they are legal and/or created by the song crafter they are ok

looping is form of expression just as performing is

as long as it not some cheesy, hit the button and let the machine do all the work to make your arrangement king of thing

ooohhhhh my head is hurting

Several people have asked why it makes a difference whether a song is performed entirely by members or by non-members. So I'll try to explain.


Songcrafters is a community with a fairly small number of active members. We've all gotten to know each other through our posts and have made some good friends here. It's this community spirit and these friendships that keeps us coming back.

T.C. and Andy have asked what's wrong with creating a song yourself, then deciding that it needs some female backing vocals and asking a non-member to provide them. There's nothing wrong with that at all. If that was the only kind of non-member involvement we had, I wouldn't have raised the issue of DIY in the first place and we'd just be continuing with the same board structure we currently have (except, perhaps, for the merging of Lyrics and Songcrafter Tributes into other existing boards). But there have been many posts with much more non-member involvement than that.

To illustrate what I have against non-member content, let's look at an extreme, hypothetical example. Suppose I searched the web and found lots of music I like by amateur musicians. I start posting this music at Songcrafters. At first, most members probably wouldn't mind. Some might even agree with me that the music is great and they'd be glad they listened. But what if I continued to post this music performed by strangers 2 or 3 times a day, every day? What if other members decided they'd like to do the same? What if the result was that more than half of the music posted at Songcrafters was performed by strangers? I hope that most of you will agree that this would be very bad for Songcrafters. The sense of community would be lost. Many of us would no longer have a reason to continue coming to this site and quit. The few who remained would not be able to find posts by their friends because they'll either have quit or the posts will be lost amongst the sea of music by strangers.

Granted, this is an extreme example which isn't likely to happen. In fact, with our rule that all music posted in any board must have at least some member content, the situation I described wouldn't be possible. But what about songs that are primarily by strangers with only a small part played by a Songcrafters member? Is that much different? This has already happened many times when members collaborate with people they've met on other music sites. These people are strangers here at Songcrafters and the member often only plays one part in the song (perhaps just the bass, for example; or maybe just some rhythm guitar). So the song is primarily performed by strangers. I don't think such posts fit our community very well. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed on the site, but I think we're justified in separating them from music performed by our members.

When you post a song at Songcrafters, you hope that your fellow members will listen to your song and post some comments. You'll usually reply to their comments to thank them for their encouraging words and taking the time to listen. And you'll reciprocate by listening to their songs and giving them your comments. We've come to expect this cycle of mutual respect and admiration in this friendly community. But the cycle is broken when the music is primarily by strangers. These strangers may not even read the comments posted about their music. And even if they do, they can't reply to thank us for our comments. And they can't post comments about our music. So why should we take the time to listen to their music and post our comments? Isn't it already hard enough to find the time to listen to music by our friends in this community and comment on it?

When I listen to songs performed by any of our members, I feel a sense of involvement and pride. It feels like the song is a product of this community, not just the members who performed in it. Many of the songs posted here would never have been written and recorded if this community didn't exist. And many of us wouldn't even be playing music and recording if not for this community. When I listen to songs performed primarily by strangers, I have none of these feelings.

Some of you might be thinking "Okay. I see why it's a problem with songs that are primarily by strangers, but why can't we allow songs that are primarily by members with just a little help from a non-member?" As I said earlier, I don't have a problem with songs like that. However, managing a board where only some non-member content is allowed would be far too impractical. How much non-member content is too much? Members would argue with us all the time because they want us to allow their posts. It would never work and it would drive the admin team mad.

So I think the right thing to do is to have a board where only songs performed entirely by members are allowed. It's fair and it ensures that the friendly spirit of our community will continue. When you comment on a song in this board, you know that anyone who performed on the song will be able to express their appreciation for your comments and reciprocate by listening/commenting on your songs.

I hope this helps those with doubts to see why we want to emphasise member-performed music over collaborations with non-members. We believe it's an important step to ensure that the friendly community spirit and cycle of mutual respect and admiration will continue for many years to come. I'm sure there will still be one or two members who refuse to see it. That's unfortunate but expected. You can never please everyone.

One final clarification: Although I like the name "DIY" (Do It Yourself), the word "yourself" might imply working alone. That isn't the case. Collaborations with other Songcrafters members are certainly welcome in the DIY boards. I hope the name "DIY" is not misleading to most folks.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 21, 2011, 01:16:09 PMOne final clarification: Although I like the name "DIY" (Do It Yourself), the word "yourself" might imply working alone. That isn't the case. Collaborations with other Songcrafters members are certainly welcome in the DIY boards. I hope the name "DIY" is not misleading to most folks.

Maybe we could call it "DIO" (Do It Ourselves) instead of DIY, that is another commonly used term for this sort of idea.

QuoteWhen I listen to songs performed by any of our members, I feel a sense of involvement and pride. It feels like the song is a product of this community, not just the members who performed in it. Many of the songs posted here would never have been written and recorded if this community didn't exist. And many of us wouldn't even be playing music and recording if not for this community. When I listen to songs performed primarily by strangers, I have none of these feelings.

yeahhhhh baby

My cat drinks beer.

yawn-pass me a beer kitty

Certainly something to think about. Though it explains why a few feel this way,I still don't see that it is necessary to exclude them. As you say, we have indeed become a tight group of a small group of active posters, but that has been with them included. Was it not? A majority of them should be considered to be a very big part of this community since they also take part in other aspects of this forum. When they post, all member or not, it is not their music they are still playing? It just feels very wrong to me to exclude them now. Especially for something so superficial and with no history of having caused any problems before.   

Guess it doesn't matter. Maybe I've been naive in thinking that ALL the regular members were a part of this community. And that all of them have been essential in making this community what it was. Maybe the banner should read "Music for members by members".

Also... Can we please stop with the comments that have nothing to do with the conversation? If you have nothing of value to add to either side of the discussion, then what is the point in commenting? Allow those of us who would like to discuss this, to do so without the the pointless and unnecessary posts. Thanks

whats a beer kitty?

Quote from: oldmariahcareyhead on June 21, 2011, 03:18:32 PMwhats a beer kitty?

you know what a beer is and don't call me kitty

(http://files.sharenator.com/I_came_here_to_laughnot_to_read_RE_The_Art_of_Trolling-s435x241-126384-580.jpg)

I`m touching myself right now...Ooops wrong thread!

That was a fine post 64G - many thanks :)

Sai - look at it the way I've come to see it (which I believe 64G's post confirmed for me):

These DIY boards where some types of post are necessarily "excluded" are for recordings performed by songcrafter members. It is actually a very good idea and fulfills a purpose for folks who want to be able to go to a board containing contributions that are at the very heart of how they see and use this site. I'm guessing you're like me, and you don't actually see and use the site like this yourself. But, for me anyway, that's OK because I can see there are obviously a sizable number who do. Given that it's a good idea, how do you set the ground rules for these "exclusive" boards so that as many people understand as possible, and as few people as possible feel alienated in any way? It could have been the member posting is performing on it, or some of the parts are members, the majority of parts are members, all parts are members. The only way to do it without possibly incurring huge moderation problems further down the line is "all the parts are by members (with or without their drums machines)" - it's black and white, easy to understand and get across in a header message or whatever.

Now, to the "excluded". First off, like 64G kept trying to say - but they're not excluded!! They can post in General. My main concern was a member who composed the song, directed, engineered and mixed the recording on home studio kit, but who did not play any of the parts. He or she is still very much a "songcrafter" in my mind, and I felt bad for him/her. The minute I understood that the DIY boards are about performance contributions, not specifically about the compositions themselves, and that a member can post song demos in General (with no restriction other than the ones already in force - that you ought to have been involved in some way, and that you musn't have nicked it!!), then I became a happy bunny.

I have to admit, I see no reason to post my stuff in the DIY boards myself, I'd rather get all mine in one place in General. But, I am free to do this if I want! (This could well change when 64G unveils his song database facililty - really looking forward to that.)

Now that I've understood what the game plan is, I can see it's a reasonable solution all round. The folks into finding member performed material easily win, I appear to win, the admin job should be easier, and the folks who I thought might feel excluded will hopefully not feel that way if the site explains it well enough to them.

I do hope that helps you Sai - and others who I think were feeling the same stuff as me in this thread - but we're all different, so mebbe it won't! :)


BUT I have to agree with you on the apparently idiotic contributions in this thread. I do understand why many of them might be doing it. In most cases, I suspect they think that the issue is a non-issue and that it needs no further discussion. If this is the case, it shows a complete lack of feeling and understanding that other individuals must have very valid concerns that need addressing. 64G has valiantly tried to address these throughout the thread. But he has not been helped by such contributions in the slightest, and it saddened me a bit. In fact, a lot... I only entered the fray at the weekend BECAUSE I could see the concerns people were expressing but I could also see that some people who were satisifed were now posting off-topic comments that, whether intended or not, gave one message only to the people with concerns - "Aw shutup you w@nkers". It has not helped shorten the discussion one little bit.

It's all good Andy.

It's become fairly obvious that they don't care what I have to say.

I'll just shut up now.

Quote from: AndyR on June 22, 2011, 02:18:09 AMNow, to the "excluded". First off, like 64G kept trying to say - but they're not excluded!! They can post in General. My main concern was a member who composed the song, directed, engineered and mixed the recording on home studio kit, but who did not play any of the parts. He or she is still very much a "songcrafter" in my mind,

It seems to me that if the balance of contribution belongs to the member or members of the forum then the contribution should be included in the songcrafter members contribution page - I don't like the 100% member rule.  If the balance of contribution is majority non-member with a little bit of member contribution then its on another page.  If there is no member contribution it should be on the general discussion page where those posts already are. 

I think this has already been said and said again.  When does this thread close down??

Ian

Here's some comments from a fairly new member ... for what it's worth.
I've tried to read though this thread but there is more in it than I've read in
the 6 months I've been here ...  ;D ... so forgive me as I ramble.

I've been writing this for three days and trying to organize my thoughts.
64 ... your last post summed up a lot of what I thought  you were thinking
and I see and agree with you and the board's focus.

I spend many years wishing I had musicians to "Collaborate" with
while recording some ideas which all became my precious yet boring
to others songs/instrumentals.  Most musicians I knew or came in contact
with had very little ambition to create new music and also had very little
positive feedback on all my ideas.  I've seen the sights where everyone
is posting and/or selling their music, but what I see mostly is people
competing to make it, etc ... which is fine ... I've been there.

When I came across SongCrafters about six months ago I clicked
on "Collaborations" and found something which just seemed a little
bit too good to be true!  Between that and "Original Songs" I was
completely blown away ... but not by the incredible talent and
incredible songs I was hearing FOR FREE! ... But by the interaction
and diversity of the music and its MEMBERS ... and especially by the
unfinished material being passed around so freely.   I've never done
this!   Most musicians I worked with for most of my life would rarely
let someone listen to something they were working on nevertheless
share it.

SongCrafters is an incredible place to be.   It is also an incredibly
well run and maintained sight ...  ( Who's the tech guy(s)??? ).

My Ignorant Opinions:

I think the 5 boards are good for the most part.

Keep it simple ... I don't like "DIY" ... Original Songs and Cover Songs
are major topics.

I like finding all the Original Songs on 1 board ... maybe there should just be
a better clarification of what/who's on each song ... a better way to differentiate
without having to go to different boards ... "Colors"?

I've been fooled several times by what was played and what was
programmed/copied/etc ... but that's life.

"Collaborations" drew me in ... How about something like "Collaborations / Works In Progress"
for anything that's not complete, being worked on, or is fair game?.

This sight has been the best musical thing that has ever happened to me ...

Please don't send me and my old beat up outdated Zoom recorder packing ...  ;D

That will ruin my day.

Kenny B.

Quote from: Kenny B on June 22, 2011, 08:18:20 AMWhen I came across SongCrafters about six months ago I clicked on "Collaborations" and found something which just seemed a little bit too good to be true!  Between that and "Original Songs" I was completely blown away ... but not by the incredible talent and incredible songs I was hearing FOR FREE! ... But by the interaction and diversity of the music and its MEMBERS ... and especially by the unfinished material being passed around so freely.   I've never done this!   Most musicians I worked with for most of my life would rarely let someone listen to something they were working on nevertheless share it.

SongCrafters is an incredible place to be. 

This sight has been the best musical thing that has ever happened to me ...

these words right here from one of our newer members (who happens to be one hell of a bass player) sums up my thoughts about this place.  This is getting to the heart of what this site is all about for me, what this site represents to me.  This is the kind of thing that needs to be promoted even further IMO, to make this site even more special.  But that is just my opinion, and I guess Kenny B's too, and I agree with him.

The membership aspect is the heart and soul of SongCrafters.

This has really grown on me in a relatively short time.  You guys have
built an  incredible thing here.  I am a very skeptical person and wasn't
sure if I would be welcomed at first.  Clubs can be a tough thing to
join ... but I sensed there was something different happening here.
It wasn't a crazy free for all ...  and I realize that is what you are trying
to avoid.

I have complete respect for everyone and everything on this sight.
But I wouldn't want to post on a different board if I got a non-member
drummer friend to play on a tune.

Just an idea from a burned out old programmer ...

How about a selection when posting specifying your combinations ...

All members,  real instruments, members + guests, etc, etc ... these
can be seen in different colors or with set captions or something so
people can differentiate when browsing through ... ???

We all know we look for specific things and people to listen to and
comment on.

I really think segregating on different boards will upset a lot of people ... I may have
not joined if I saw too many club rules.  I'd hate to have missed that
post ORH had put up with that friend with the old Zoom recorder ...

I wish a lot of regulars weren't so obviously trying to avoid being a part of this discussion. No matter which side they fall on, I think it would go a long way to better clarify whether or not it really is the majority who would prefer that the member only content be separated from the non-member only content.

As much as I enjoy "hearing" Dave's sexy "voice" reiterate what this site means to him... over and over... I am fairly certain he is tired of "hearing" me trying to find different ways to restate my point... over and over...



In the interest of moving the discussion along... If we do separate by member vs non-member, does that mean we need the same set of boards for both?
Post Your Work
     General Originals
     General Covers
     Member Originals
     Member Covers

Maybe Collabs can be a part of the Songwriting category? After all, they are unfinished parts looking for people to finish other parts and can be seen as in the process of being "written"...  As 64g stated, it is not intended to actually post the finish product here, so the finished product would obviously fall under being an Original or Cover, would it not?

Not exactly "streamlining" though.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 22, 2011, 09:54:37 AMI wish a lot of regulars weren't so obviously trying to avoid being a part of this discussion. No matter which side they fall on, I think it would go a long way to better clarify whether or not it really is the majority who would prefer that the member only content be separated from the non-member only content.

Considering myself a regular, I've been watching this thread with interest. I've even started writing some further thoughts and replies down, only to scrap them due to the realisation that I haven't really got anything new to add. I think every angle and argument has already been eloquently (and passionately) voiced.

For me, I'm here to make music, get inspired, collaborate with others, listen to some great songs, converse with my musical 'family', and try to make my working day bearable. Pretty simple, huh? I don't really care how things are sectioned or categorised, because it wouldn't fundementally change why I'm here. I'm lucky in the fact that 80% of my stuff is original and solo-performed using real instruments (albeit with a little help from my songcrafters friends sometimes), so I kind of know where I belong. But I do understand that:

1. Others with less clearly-defined / pigeonholeable (is that a word?!) contributions are worried about being marginalised through a re-org.

2. Because of the huge range of technology at our disposal, there are all sorts of grey areas around what constitutes self-performed and computer-assisted music.

3. Member versus Non-member is another difficult and grey area

All I can say is that I trust 64guitar's judgement 100%, and his ongoing commitment - along with the admin team - to maintaining THE very best music community on the web. This thread alone proves that we have a supportive, 'listening' democracy here. Most websites would just make the changes and say 'if you don't like it, f*ck off'. Not this place though. But I'd guess that 64guitars is wondering why he opened this argument up now. I don't think anyone could have forseen the venom and passion that's been awoken. And I'd really, really hate to think we've pissed him off enough to wonder what the hell he's doing here. After all, he's the glue that holds this place together. We would be SO lost without him. Let's never forget that little fact.

So... where are we?

Is this now boiling down into an argument on whether we go with a 'members only' rule?

Perhaps we should have a vote on it 64guitars / Admin team?

Personally, I think that we should TRY to encourage people to join the site, but not make it mandatory. Therefore, anything with at least one member appearing on it is eligible for posting. We're reasonably smart people - if certain members start taking the piss or bending the rules too far, we'll be onto them.

I'll probably regret posting this in 30 seconds. Oh well.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 22, 2011, 09:54:37 AMI wish a lot of regulars weren't so obviously trying to avoid being a part of this discussion.

I have been trying to stay out of this, but I will chime in briefly.

I am confident the administrators will work toward what they think is in the best interest of the site. It won't make everybody happy. It may not make me 100% happy, but that's life. One of the strengths of Songcrafters is its eclectic nature, and as long as there is some place on the site for everybody to post, life is good. If a particular thread doesn't get as many views, so be it.  That is merely a reflection of the interest of the members here.

Mostly, I would like to see this divisiveness come to an end. If changes are afoot, let's sally forth and stop the endless conjecture. As most of you know, change may be a bitch, but the anxiety leading up to it is usually much worse.

I'm not willing to get worked up over this. My feeling has been and will be that regardless of what transpires, the sun will still rise tomorrow.

Blooby

Quote from: Blooby on June 22, 2011, 11:01:19 AMlet's sally forth

       Hey, now there's a phrase I'm not familiar with!!  I like it. A lot. And the sentiment behind it. Well said Mr Blooby. 'Let's sally forth....'. Enough said, everyone?

                                                                             henwrench

for the record 64guitars speaks for me and all the admin team.

I think this song sums up my feelings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4SOnBDe7qs

Ian: I agree with your point but it's just too hard for us to manage. So I'm afraid it has to be all or none.

I don't intend to lock this topic. I think we've got enough feedback and the admin team will soon get back to discussing it privately and making our final decision. But in the meantime and even after we've made our decision, I think people should feel free to voice their ideas and concerns. I'll continue to read all of them and take your points into consideration, but I probably won't be able to reply much more. To the people who want this topic to end, I say "Why?". I understand that you may be tired of it. But why can't you just ignore the topic and let others have their say? You're not obliged to continue reading this topic. Please, just got to the next topic if you're not interested in this one.


Andy: Thanks for your comments. You've made some good points in all of your posts and I'd like to reply to all of them but I just don't have time.

I'm glad you brought up the exclusion concerns and that you understand nobody is being excluded from Songcrafters. When the admin team took over Songcrafters from Pedro, one of the very first things we discussed is that we want everyone to be welcome here. I was so glad to hear that the rest of the admin team felt the same as me. It gave me great hope for the future of Songcrafters and reassured me that we had the right admin team. But saying that everyone is welcome is not the same thing as saying that all posts should be guaranteed the same number of views and comments. That's not possible. People have different interests and they're going to view the posts which interest them while ignoring the rest no matter how we organise the site. So we have to organise the site based of member interests. Since the biggest member interest is recordings performed by members, this should be the main focus of the site. Everything else is still welcome, but it will never get the same number of views/comments no matter how we organise the site.


A lot of people have said that they want their posts to stay on page 1 for as long as possible to get the most views/comments. They feel that once the post goes to page 2, it no longer gets any attention. These same people want to post in the most popular board because they feel that more visitors means more views/comments for their posts. But what everyone seems to be overlooking is that the more popular a board is, the less time your post will be on page 1. So the most popular board is not necessarily the one where your post will get the most views/comments. With this in mind, perhaps some of you will be less concerned about which board your posts go in. As long as the board is at least moderately popular, any reduction in the number of visitors to that board is offset to some degree by the fact that your post stays on page 1 longer. You might find that you get more attention in a different board because your posts are on page 1 longer. You might find that it makes little difference. But let's not assume that the board will become a ghost town like Backing Track Jams. That was a different situation. We have very few members who are passionate about backing tracks and they mostly left instead of staying and trying to make their board more popular. But we obviously have a lot of members who want to collaborate with non-members or who play in bands. So I fully expect the new board to have more than enough participation to make it a success.

Another point to consider is the Latest Songs jukebox. I think that quite a few members use this feature to check out the new songs instead of actually going to a board and viewing posts. Well, the Latest Songs jukebox pulls songs from all of the Post Your Work boards. So it will make no difference which board your song is posted in. If the listener wants to comment on your song, they can click the Comment link in the player which will take them straight to the topic where your song is posted, regardless of which board it's posted in. The same is true of all of the jukeboxes (On This Day, Member Jukeboxes, festivals, etc). For those of you who say you just come here to listen to good music and you don't want it categorized in any way, why not use the Latest Songs jukebox instead of browsing the boards?

I don't really know why it matters to me then.

I've spent so much of my time, since I was 15 fighting for others, I guess old habits die hard. The injustice, perceived or otherwise, was just something I couldn't let go. 

What's funny, is that should the re-org go ahead exactly as suggested, most of what I do would end up in the members only board anyway. I wonder if that is why so many think it doesn't matter, since in the end, they will not be directly affected anyway.

I had felt a part of this community and would have stood up for any one of you if I had thought anyone was singling you out. So I apologize to anyone who thinks I am making a mountain out of a mole hill. I wanna apologize to 64g especially. I know I can be an ass... Not wrong, mind you  ;D, but an ass just the same. :P  Still wished you had taken the time to actually understand what I was trying to say. :( But that doesn't excuse my demeanor. So, unless anyone asks me about it directly, I have no reason to keep trying.

All I know, is that if this board was divided by "member only" and "not member only" content from the beginning, I never would have joined. Guess we'll just have to see what we'll see.

Good luck to everyone. It's been a blast.

Quote from: Saijinn Maas on June 22, 2011, 09:54:37 AMIf we do separate by member vs non-member, does that mean we need the same set of boards for both?
Post Your Work
     General Originals
     General Covers
     Member Originals
     Member Covers

I don't have any objection to dividing the General board into Originals and Covers, or whatever other boards people want. However, a couple of people mentioned that they didn't think child boards would be a good idea, and I suspect they may me right, though I'm not sure why. But the hierarchical structure of boards with child boards is generally a useful aid to better organisation. One way we could have that kind of hierarchy without using child boards is to have multiple categories. Currently, we have only one category ("Post Your Work") for song posts. We could replace Post Your Work with two categories and create boards within each of those categories.

For example:

Member Songs

• Originals
• Covers
• Collaborations

Non-member Songs

• Originals
• Covers
• Collaborations
• Backers/loops/midi

The board names are just examples. We can work on figuring out what the boards should be later. But does this division into two categories make it any better for those with doubts/objections? Just a thought.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 22, 2011, 12:19:17 PMI don't have any objection to dividing the General board into Originals and Covers, or whatever other boards people want. However, a couple of people mentioned that they didn't think child boards would be a good idea, and I suspect they may me right, though I'm not sure why. But the hierarchical structure of boards with child boards is generally a useful aid to better organisation. One way we could have that kind of hierarchy without using child boards is to have multiple categories. Currently, we have only one category ("Post Your Work") for song posts. We could replace Post Your Work with two categories and create boards within each of those categories.

For example:

Member Songs

• Originals
• Covers
• Collaborations

Non-member Songs

• Originals
• Covers
• Collaborations
• Backers/loops/midi

The board names are just examples. We can work on figuring out what the boards should be later. But does this division into two categories make it any better for those with doubts/objections? Just a thought.

Just have a question about non-member collabs? Isn't this criteria the reason they'd be in general board anyway? I mean, if they had collab'd with other members, they'd be in the member board anyway? Might have just confused myself.

Oh yeah...

What about that Collabs in general are not a Post Your Work board? Since it is a board to discuss and set up collaborations in order to get a final version posted under the qualifying (original or cover) board. Also, since to the only reason to post lyrics is for feedback or to find a collab, do lyrics necessarily qualify as a "Post Your Work"? Lyrics without music is just poetry... nothing wrong with that mind you. Just thought it could be condensed is all.

Sorry... keep thinking of other things to add...

Not sure why people are against child boards either, but if you named them similar to what I had:

Member Orginals
Member Covers
General Originals
General Covers
Backer/Loops/Midi

They wouldn't need to be child boards.

QuoteAnother point to consider is the Latest Songs jukebox. I think that quite a few members use this feature to check out the new songs instead of actually going to a board and viewing posts. Well, the Latest Songs jukebox pulls songs from all of the Post Your Work boards. So it will make no difference which board your song is posted in. If the listener wants to comment on your song, they can click the Comment link in the player which will take them straight to the topic where your song is posted, regardless of which board it's posted in. The same is true of all of the jukeboxes (On This Day, Member Jukeboxes, festivals, etc). For those of you who say you just come here to listen to good music and you don't want it categorized in any way, why not use the Latest Songs jukebox instead of browsing the boards?

I think this may be the key to people scanning and listening to what they prefer.

Wanted to ask this a while ago and forgot ... about The Latest Songs and On this Day Jukeboxes.

When I discovered these as a new member I noticed that they didn't show which
board they were on as I was listening to a cover and thought it was an original.

Then I started going to the On This Day jukebox and saw  June '08, June '09 etc.  Is there a way
to pick or scroll to different dates and what was happening in March 2010, Etc?

This is a fantastic site and I don't mean to be the PITA end user ... just wondering
if I missed something ...  ;D

It would be cool to bring up  a jukebox for MM/DD/YYYY and see all the new songs:

Song1      Member        Description       04/12/2010       Board Name
Song2      Member        Description       04/12/2010       Board Name
Song3      Member        Description       04/11/2010       Board Name

Sorry ... I have too much time on my hands today ...  :o

kb

Several people have asked why there's a need to separate member work from non-member work and I replied yesterday with a well-considered message giving my reasons. Would someone care to post a well-considered message explaining why there should not be this separation? All the reasons I've heard so far seem to boil down to a perceived exclusion based on views/comments, or a sense that we're saying anything that's not entirely member-performed is crap (of course we're not). I've tried many times to reassure the doubters that their fears of exclusion and judgement are unwarranted. Is it that you don't believe me? Or is there another reason which you've not yet mentioned why you think member-performed recordings should not have their own place in the site?

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 22, 2011, 12:51:10 PMSeveral people have asked why there's a need to separate member work from non-member work and I replied yesterday with a well-considered message giving my reasons. Would someone care to post a well-considered message explaining why there should not be this separation? All the reasons I've heard so far seem to boil down to a perceived exclusion based on views/comments, or a sense that we're saying anything that's not entirely member-performed is crap (of course we're not). I've tried many times to reassure the doubters that their fears of exclusion and judgement are unwarranted. Is it that you don't believe me? Or is there another reason which you've not yet mentioned why you think member-performed recordings should not have their own place in the site?

Funny you should ask...

QuoteFunny you should ask...

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=11426.0;msg=152956

Quote from: oldmariahcareyhead on June 22, 2011, 12:57:45 PM

QuoteFunny you should ask...

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=11426.0;msg=152956

Am i missing something? That was not what he asked. Actually, that would be the opposite of what was asked.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 22, 2011, 11:55:24 AMAndy: Thanks for your comments. You've made some good points in all of your posts and I'd like to reply to all of them but I just don't have time.

:) No worries - you've actually addressed all the points that I had in my mind through other posts you've made anyway.

The only reason you'd need to reply to any of them directly now is if you think anything that I've written might have raised issues for others who might need clearer answers/conclusions than I've reached (if that makes sense). Otherwise, you've got enough to do already! :D

Various EDITS: (You guys keep posting while I'm typing!)

Watch out for those board names though (the new suggestions) - I know you're saying the names can be hammered out, but when you're doing it bear in mind there are folk like me who think of a "song" as the song itself, not the recorded version of it (be it written out on paper or a recording you can listen to).

At first glance, when I saw "Non-member Songs" that automatically meant a cover to me ("a member must have posted it, and he's saying it's a non-member song" ::)!), and so finding boards inside called "Originals" and "Covers" was initially confusing.

Maybe the categories could be Member Recordings and Non-Member Recordings? Not ideal, I know (You'd have to make sure there was some way people understood that this did not mean "post your favourite Coldplay/wotever recording"!! :D)

Actually, the stuff I said earlier about a personal desire to post in General would disappear immediately then, I'd head straight for Member Recordings and its boards to post my stuff, feeling no superiority over those who were posting in Non-member Recordings. Also, for some reason I feel more inclined to make an effort to prowl both categories named in that way (more than I would with the General and DIY - I can see me getting into a General or DIY mindset and sticking there for a while).

EDIT - and then you posted this:

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 22, 2011, 12:51:10 PMSeveral people have asked why there's a need to separate member work from non-member work and I replied yesterday with a well-considered message giving my reasons. Would someone care to post a well-considered message explaining why there should not be this separation? All the reasons I've heard so far seem to boil down to a perceived exclusion based on views/comments, or a sense that we're saying anything that's not entirely member-performed is crap (of course we're not). I've tried many times to reassure the doubters that their fears of exclusion and judgement are unwarranted. Is it that you don't believe me? Or is there another reason which you've not yet mentioned why you think member-performed recordings should not have their own place in the site?

I can only speak for me. The reason I was uncomfortable was because of this personal distinction I have between Songs and Recordings. I don't know how many other people have it though.

While we're calling these posts "Songs" I have reservations about segregation of any sort based on who's performing on the recording posted. But if we call them "Recordings" (or something similar), my reservations disappear. (I have to go now - the missus is hungry, she's been very patient -I hope that was clear enough, and I hope it helps, otherwise I can clarify tomorrow if necessary)

i was referring you to the post 64guitars mentioned

QuoteSeveral people have asked why there's a need to separate member work from non-member work and I replied yesterday with a well-considered message giving my reasons.

where he believes he already answered those questions, if you read that then perhaps you can answer his query.

Quote from: sai on June 22, 2011, 01:09:01 PM

Quote from: oldmariahcareyhead on June 22, 2011, 12:57:45 PM

QuoteFunny you should ask...

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=11426.0;msg=152956

Am i missing something? That was not what he asked. Actually, that would be the opposite of what was asked.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 22, 2011, 12:51:10 PMSeveral people have asked why there's a need to separate member work from non-member work and I replied yesterday with a well-considered message giving my reasons. Would someone care to post a well-considered message explaining why there should not be this separation? All the reasons I've heard so far seem to boil down to a perceived exclusion based on views/comments, or a sense that we're saying anything that's not entirely member-performed is crap (of course we're not). I've tried many times to reassure the doubters that their fears of exclusion and judgement are unwarranted. Is it that you don't believe me? Or is there another reason which you've not yet mentioned why you think member-performed recordings should not have their own place in the site?

I thought you might have mis-linked is all...

I know I stepped out of this conversation, but I thought I could add something relevant again. Here's a snapshot of what child boards look like, and it should define why I don't like them, if they are intended for daily use. Mine are strictly archival.

This illustrates how the child boards appear when the "group" isn't selected.

(https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11426.0;attach=11976)

This is in response to what 64g asked. This has nothing to do with excluding groups, backers, etc.
This is intended to be about why the change should be about streamlining and there being no need to change the focus.



Currently, there is a known imbalance for certain boards. As previously stated, this is probably not fixable at this point.

What we have found out so far in this discussion, is that the majority of regular posters will fall into the "member only" (referred to as DIY from now on) board.

Using the information avilable to us, the breakdown of the current posts are as follows:

51% Original Songs   
17% General Discussion   
15% Cover Songs      
7% Multitrack Recorders   
3% Collaborations      
2% Introduce Yourself!   
2% Just for Laughs      
1% Backing Track Jams   
1% Guitars and Basses   
1% Songcrafter Tributes   

The sections that pertain to the restructure of the Post Your Work board specifically, are as follows:

Original Songs...      
46% *DIY         
5% *General      
Cover Songs...
12% *DIY          
3% *General      
3% Collaborations      
1% Backing Track Jams   
1% Songcrafter Tributes   

*Since we have no real numbers for this, a guess was made based on the posts found within the first couple of pages of each other sections.

This means that:

DIY Board =
46% DIY Originals     
12% DIY Covers       
1% Tributes
3% Collaborations    
---------------------------
62% Total

General Board =    
5% General Originals
3% General Covers
1% Backing Tracks
---------------------------
9% Total

(Totals run around a +/-2% margin of error, which is not enough to significantly change the conclusions)

The backers and non-members will now be relegated to a low active board, while those who make up the majority still constitute the more active board, by quite a bit.

At this point, it really has nothing to do with being fair or otherwise, but it does show that the restructure will not really achieve much more than it is currently, the only thing that changes is that some members will no longer be able to post in the higher traffic'd area the members they previously interacted with.

However, if we restructure in a manner that emphasizes streamlining, we can do something like:

General Discussion
   General Discussion
   Introduce Yourself
   Just for Laughs
   Gear

Post Your Work
   Originals
   Covers
   Backer/Loops/Midi

Songwriting
   General
   Collaborations
   Lyrics

Recording
   General
   Multitrack Recorders


This cuts down a few of the extraneous boards while still giving keeping the traffic for people who are the biggest part of the community.

If anything I said either doesn't make sense, or you just do not agree, then please discuss it. Otherwise, what was the point?
   
This concludes this part of the program. I apologize for the length. I usually feel that is even more important to be concise when talking on a forum or text, more so, than in person.

Quote from: sai on June 22, 2011, 12:27:28 PMJust have a question about non-member collabs? Isn't this criteria the reason they'd be in general board anyway? I mean, if they had collab'd with other members, they'd be in the member board anyway? Might have just confused myself.

Yeah, you're probably right. I didn't give that much thought as I was only trying to illustrate how the idea of two categories would work.

QuoteWhat about that Collabs in general are not a Post Your Work board? Since it is a board to discuss and set up collaborations in order to get a final version posted under the qualifying (original or cover) board. Also, since to the only reason to post lyrics is for feedback or to find a collab, do lyrics necessarily qualify as a "Post Your Work"? Lyrics without music is just poetry... nothing wrong with that mind you. Just thought it could be condensed is all.

When I first read that, I thought you might be right. Discussions belong in the General Discussion category, not Post Your Work. But then I realized that discussion is not enough if you've written an original song and you want to collaborate. Just saying, for example, "I've written a song and need someone to do the vocals. Anyone interested?" would not be enough. You'd need to post a recording of what you've done so far so that people can decide whether they're interested or not. So I think collaborations still belong in Post Your Work because they will often have recordings attached.

QuoteNot sure why people are against child boards either, but if you named them similar to what I had:

Member Orginals
Member Covers
General Originals
General Covers
Backer/Loops/Midi

They wouldn't need to be child boards.

Yes, and that's fine. It's just that I noticed the repetition of Originals and Covers and thought that using two categories might be better for that. But it's not important to me. Either way is fine. I just wondered if anyone preferred the use of two categories.

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 22, 2011, 02:55:11 PM

QuoteWhat about that Collabs in general are not a Post Your Work board? Since it is a board to discuss and set up collaborations in order to get a final version posted under the qualifying (original or cover) board. Also, since to the only reason to post lyrics is for feedback or to find a collab, do lyrics necessarily qualify as a "Post Your Work"? Lyrics without music is just poetry... nothing wrong with that mind you. Just thought it could be condensed is all.

When I first read that, I thought you might be right. Discussions belong in the General Discussion category, not Post Your Work. But then I realized that discussion is not enough if you've written an original song and you want to collaborate. Just saying, for example, "I've written a song and need someone to do the vocals. Anyone interested?" would not be enough. You'd need to post a recording of what you've done so far so that people can decide whether they're interested or not. So I think collaborations still belong in Post Your Work because they will often have recordings attached.

I guess it just depends on how you read it. When I read Post Your Work, I think of finished work. But I can see how to some in would include In Process work.

And don't forget about Andy's distinction between songs and recordings.

burp...let's sally on

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 22, 2011, 03:07:13 PMAnd don't forget about Andy's distinction between songs and recordings.

Yes, I agree that "recordings" is a better word and I'll try to remember to use it from now on. But I want to point out that the names we choose can easily be changed at any time with no consequences to the messages or links. So I don't want to get too hung up on names right now. They're very important, but the need to find the right name isn't urgent. If we choose a crappy name initially, there will be plenty of time to change it to a better one after the boards are set up. I'm more concerned about deciding what the content of each board should be and possibly the hierarchy (multiple categories or just one). So consider any names mentioned in this topic as only for reference and let's concentrate on what types of posts should go in each board.

Quote from: guitarron on June 20, 2011, 08:14:43 PMoh and the loops thing-
i see where the distinction with biab type midi tracks/loops-in my earlier post i was referring to audio loops-
loops are another instrument these days-creative use of loops is songwriting too- maybe not in the traditional way, but it is certainly part of the craft these days.
 as long as they are legal and/or created by the song crafter they are ok

looping is form of expression just as performing is

as long as it not some cheesy, hit the button and let the machine do all the work to make your arrangement king of thing

i feel like the whole loops issue has been ignored

Quote from: guitarron on June 22, 2011, 03:32:45 PM

Quote from: guitarron on June 20, 2011, 08:14:43 PMoh and the loops thing-
i see where the distinction with biab type midi tracks/loops-in my earlier post i was referring to audio loops-
loops are another instrument these days-creative use of loops is songwriting too- maybe not in the traditional way, but it is certainly part of the craft these days.
 as long as they are legal and/or created by the song crafter they are ok

crafting is form of expression just as performing is

as long as it not some cheesy, hit the button and let the machine do all the work to make your arrangement king of thing

i feel like the whole loops issue has been ignored

I think because we never made any headway with backers. So, it got lumped in with it. That's my guess at least.

Quote from: Saijinn on June 22, 2011, 09:54:37 AMI wish a lot of regulars weren't so obviously trying to avoid being a part of this discussion. No matter which side they fall on, I think it would go a long way to better clarify whether or not it really is the majority who would prefer that the member only content be separated from the non-member only content.

I could answer pretty much the same as Tim did to this. For me personally, the changes doesn't really matter. Tho I may have some more posts than Tim that falls outside the "member-only" (or DIO as BB called it, .. I like that one Dave) it doesn't really matter. I have this wonderful place to come to and post my work and listen to other middle-aged men do the same ;D ;D And I really try not to discriminate any board. I use the "Since Last Visit" & "New Replies" links on top of the pages (and so do most of the regulars I think, judging from the times I look at "who's online"), so I don't really use the boards much.

I would like to say tho', that even if it's been a while since I did anything over a backer, I do see the value of have a place to post that kind of music. One of the main reasons is that it is a good way to start. I remember when I started here I was lucky that it coinsided with the first bluesfest. It gave me the opportunity to get a few songs posted that sounded good, and that I got kind feedback on. It helped me in overcoming the fear of posting a complete original.

One last comment ... I don't really think the comments on any category music will change much due to this reorganisation, most people comment on what they want anyway.

PS. a little more statistics for you Saijinn: about 25% of the comments on backers was made by the 5 most active posters (and we're mostly originals and some covers guys ;) )

i have been drinking so i will just say "burp"

Quoteand listen to other middle-aged men do the same

i take great offence at this geir you know i am a boy at heart

Quote from: oldmariahcareyhead on June 22, 2011, 05:24:22 PM

Quoteand listen to other middle-aged men do the same

i take great offence at this geir you know i am a boy at heart

get ta yer bed ole man

i know geir i know but i cant find my slippers

Quote from: Geir the scruffy Viking on June 22, 2011, 05:22:21 PMPS. a little more statistics for you Saijinn: about 25% of the comments on backers was made by the 5 most active posters (and we're mostly originals and some covers guys ;) )

interesting stat Geir........what does it all mean.

Oh, yeah on the songs vs recordings idea, when I come on here I like to listen to recordings of songs, but conversely, if I went out in my city to listen to music I would much rather listen to songs that are not recorded.  In this way I think that recordings are good in one sense and songs good in another.  Then there are recordings made of people performing songs, like the latest JK basement tapes, so that gives us another category, performance.  Why not create threads for songs, recordings and performances, this gives a lot of variation.  Then the member performed songs, or the member recorded performance....wait, what about songs about recording, I have done one of two of those, and I even recorded them, so that is recordings about songs about recordings.....I like the ring of that.  This is really cool when you look at all the ways we can break this all down......my pathological need for categories is starting to rear its ugly head here.....

right now i am eating the most delicious brie mmmmmmmmmmmm

and in the performance category could go all the live type recordings, bands, plug and play stuff, one-take backing track jams, those are really more about the performance than structuring or composing music, that is really the nature of the backer challenges, plug in and capture a performance.  I think I am on to something..........why not have a category for performances.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 22, 2011, 06:02:31 PMand in the performance category could go all the live type recordings, bands, plug and play stuff, one-take backing track jams, those are really more about the performance than structuring or composing music, that is really the nature of the backer challenges, plug in and capture a performance.  I think I am on to something..........why not have a category for performances.

a LitLR  (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=3785.msg153180#msg153180) category ?

and a cheese board

Quote from: Geir the scruffy Viking on June 22, 2011, 06:04:31 PMa LitLR  (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=3785.msg153180#msg153180) category ?

Thats it exactly Geir, and like you say also band practices, live shows, the latest JK recordings, all that kind of thing. ....backing track jams, solo singing, one take sing and acoustic songs, etc....... I believe that that stuff should have its own board.........we have come up with a good idea here tonight Geir.  great minds like ours should work together more often, for good man, lets use our powers only for good.

....but would that stuff in the Performance board be songs or recordings, or neither, or both?  and like we said earlier, you could certainly have a performance of a song about recording. 

no one is taking my cheese board seriously

80% of songcrafters eat cheese

and the remaining 20 percent have thought about it
we really need a cheese board

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 22, 2011, 06:09:54 PM

Quote from: Geir the scruffy Viking on June 22, 2011, 06:04:31 PMa LitLR  (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=3785.msg153180#msg153180) category ?

Thats it exactly Geir, and like you say also band practices, live shows, the latest JK recordings, all that kind of thing. ....backing track jams, solo singing, one take sing and acoustic songs, etc....... I believe that that stuff should have its own board.........we have come up with a good idea here tonight Geir.  great minds like ours should work together more often, for good man, lets use our powers only for good.

Indeed Dave !!!

I feel for a Bluesberry bump of one of our collabs now  ..... wait ... is is the only one ? ... hmmm .... no ... first one was at the Neilfest ... the one I'm bumping got buried for some reason ... can't see why ..


hic

Quote from: oldmariahcareyhead on June 22, 2011, 06:18:35 PM80% of songcrafters eat cheese

and the remaining 20 percent have thought about it
we really need a cheese board

Maybe expand it to a recipe board. Makes me hungry, and I just ate.

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 22, 2011, 06:09:54 PM

Quote from: Geir the scruffy Viking on June 22, 2011, 06:04:31 PMa LitLR  (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=3785.msg153180#msg153180) category ?

Thats it exactly Geir, and like you say also band practices, live shows, the latest JK recordings, all that kind of thing. ....backing track jams, solo singing, one take sing and acoustic songs, etc....... I believe that that stuff should have its own board.........we have come up with a good idea here tonight Geir.  great minds like ours should work together more often, for good man, lets use our powers only for good.

Live in the living room. I have a few of those, but I'm the only member so I can't clutter the site with that nonsense...

Quote from: launched on June 22, 2011, 06:25:17 PM

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 22, 2011, 06:09:54 PM

Quote from: Geir the scruffy Viking on June 22, 2011, 06:04:31 PMa LitLR  (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=3785.msg153180#msg153180) category ?

Thats it exactly Geir, and like you say also band practices, live shows, the latest JK recordings, all that kind of thing. ....backing track jams, solo singing, one take sing and acoustic songs, etc....... I believe that that stuff should have its own board.........we have come up with a good idea here tonight Geir.  great minds like ours should work together more often, for good man, lets use our powers only for good.

Live in the living room. I have a few of those, but I'm the only member so I can't clutter the site with that nonsense...

why not ? I've done it repeatedly !!! ... oh should I stop ??? ? ?

maybe stop the DitLR (do you listen James ? you know what that mean !!!)

oh you meant your band ?

sorry


running low on vampire blood

Drunk in the Living Room?

still would like to hear a few more of them tho !!

ooops we should switch thread !!!
!
you got it Dave !

I should post an addition to the glossary

It's always drunk in the living room. That's what living rooms are for.

Oh, ok. I see it now.

i have had a rethink on the cheese board, i forgot about processed cheese
mmmmmm need a rethink

Yeah, processed cheese is kind of like processed music.

What the fuck is wrong you assholes? 64g asked for a post so something was posted.

Never realized just how many pricks were here. I guess the ignorant really do prevail.

Can't believe I even gave a shit.




After talking to a friend tonight, I realized that y'all are like these cousins of mine. I love 'em, but you get a few drinks in them and an open backyard, and someone is getting hurt! Guess I can take a hint. I'll shut up now.

Still leaving what I wrote because... hell yes I said it. Not gonna pretend I didn't say it. Meant it at the time too!  ;D
Do whatever you feel is necessary.

QuoteWhat the fuck is wrong you assholes? 64g asked for a post so something was posted.

Never realized just how many pricks were here. I guess the ignorant really do prevail.

Can't believe I even gave a shit.




After talking to a friend tonight, I realized that y'all are like these cousins of mine. I love 'em, but you get a few drinks in them and an open backyard, and someone is getting hurt! Guess I can take a hint. I'll shut up now.

Still leaving what I wrote because... hell yes I said it. Not gonna pretend I didn't say it. Meant it at the time too!  Grin
Do whatever you feel is necessary.

is disrespectful, chill out.


there is a long tradition at this site of levity, especially when topics get a bit too serious, it's the glue that keeps this place from becoming like most other music sites,music sites that are rude, elitist and take themselves a bit too seriously and where they are not as welcoming as here.

Quotedo what you feel is neccessary

i suggest you take a good look in the mirror.

I like the sound of a 'live' board for open mics, gigs, and unplugged stuff. We should limit it to members only though, and stuff recorded on Boss equipment (with no overdubs). I think it would then be a 'members privilege' to be allowed to post stuff on it. Just a thought.

And oh yeah... I'm a f*cking cheese fiend. Spanish Manchego, Goats Cheese, Brie, Stilton... give me a cheese board and I'm very happy, lol.

Quote from: Saijinn on June 22, 2011, 08:22:00 PMWhat the fuck is wrong you assholes?

It's called a sense of community. And a sense of humour.

Most of us here are very easy-going people, and we don't like conflict when it rears its ugly head. Having been around here a while, you'll know that we don't see a lot of it on songcrafters. I for one am very grateful for that.

Quote from: Saijinn on June 22, 2011, 08:22:00 PMNever realized just how many pricks were here. I guess the ignorant really do prevail.

Have a long hard think about what you wrote here, and why you wrote it. Is it fair? Everyone has been given a chance to voice their opinions. Lots of respected members have given detailed, intelligent responses. 64guitars has take a HUGE amount of time addressing individual points and concerns. I don't understand why you're so angry.

There are many things in life worth getting very angry about. But a slight board re-org on songcrafters isn't one of them in my opinion.

Quote from: Greeny on June 23, 2011, 01:52:08 AMI like the sound of a 'live' board for open mics, gigs, and unplugged stuff. We should limit it to members only though, and stuff recorded on Boss equipment (with no overdubs). I think it would then be a 'members privilege' to be allowed to post stuff on it. Just a thought.

Nice idea....see, in the middle of all that lunacy, we were actually formulating ideas, and I think we came up with a good one, this performance thread.....thats called brainstorming, and having fun, and being creative, and being goofy.......I like goofy, I have a serious job, and am a serious father, and take a lot of things in life very seriously, I am downright stern in "real-life", I LIKE coming on here and hanging out with my friends and being goofy, and brainstorming...........there is nothing personal here, this is not some personal attack on any one member...........its harmless banter..............some of my best songs were written over harmless banter exchanges, thats how ideas are born sometimes...........we were merly ruminating and brainstorming on the ideas presented in this thread.....that all......yeah thats it....nothing more.........really nothing to get upset about.........

separate live board - members only and partial membership-together on one board-makes sense-gets a vote

Quote from: guitarron on June 23, 2011, 04:37:24 AMseparate live board - members only and partial membership-together on one board-makes sense-gets a vote

yeah, it needs to be fleshed out a bit, I believe this is where we could put the backing track jams, for instance, because the actual member performed part, the kick-ass solo, that is recorded essentially live, plug-in, and give-er...warts and all, thats the way to do those backing track jams.  I think that would be a reall cool thread.  I agree with you Ron that is needs to be members, and partial membership, that way a member in a band can put up band practice/performance stuff, Blooby's wonderful MoO sessions, all that.

QuoteQuote
Also on the subject of backers, I would like to challenge every regular poster here to make some backers! With the talent and the gear we have at our disposal we could make some killer backers that then would dismiss all legal issues and make it much more fun, and maybe spawn some new collabs as well !!!

I suggested this once before. I think it's a great idea and it would eliminate our legal worries if we restricted the use of backers to only those created by our members. We could build up a library of member-recorded backers so that people would have a good selection to choose from. And, since they'd be entirely member-performed, they could be posted in the DIY group where they'd get plenty of exposure and comments. But I got a lot of opposition when I proposed that idea. I forget what the objections were, but I gave up on the idea because it didn't seem like anyone else liked it.

doing some brainstorming, so let me run with my thoughts here.

in the past two days i posted a couple of tracks in backing board jams for folk to add to. barebones stuff 1 made by myself and another made by myself and another member.

this made me think. i back up most of my songs, so it wouldn't be too difficult to post unfinished versions, uno versions minus vocals, lead guitar et all.

no im not suggesting we do this instead of posting backing tracks specifically created for guitarists to practice over but as an addition.

i use the micro br to record and it would be very easy for me and certainly other mbr users to make a mix of a song, minus all the afforementioned, to let members play over, it might bring more people over to the backers section, and also it might lead to reinterpretations of members songs that take them in a completely different direction and maybe even turn them into new songs.

just a thought.

and henwrenches life of a bubble post comes to mind, tho it was more of a backing track for vocalists, it got a lot of version granted most of them from me.

Quote from: Saijinn on June 22, 2011, 08:22:00 PMWhat the fuck is wrong you assholes? 64g asked for a post so something was posted.

and that is very good, you posted.  But, damn man, you can't control what everybody else on here is going to post, you have to sit back and see what comes, the crap and the gold, it all comes together.

You see, I like to interact on this site in a similar fashion to how I create my music, I allow for a lot of free-form thought, don't force it, non-linear thinking, sub-conscious images floating through my conscious brain kind of thing......you know what i mean......thats why when I come on here, I am in that same kind of mindset .....sometimes it works, and something brilliant pops out, sometimes crap pops out..........I subscribe to the Neil Young school of creativity, don't force it, let whatever come out, to come out, even when its crap, you knever know when fools gold will turn into real gold........well, I can't help myself, when I come on here and interact with you-all sometimes I fall into that same mindset, and sometimes it is a little bit out there, but thats the only way I can fly..........tiger blood and all that.........so, no, I don't believe we were being assholes, we were just discussing and having fun in our own way.

Well said, BB... every bloody word  :)

The more I think about a 'live' board, the more I like it. It's kind of the pinnacle of where music can take you... the progression from bedroom strummer to recording musician to live performer.

I know there are some old 'experienced' hands on here when it comes to gigging etc, but it's thanks to songcrafters that some people have gained the confidence and urge to take their music to the people. You only have to look at Tharek's open-mic journey to see where this path can take you. And speaking personally, I got to perform in a proper band set-up for the first time in my life because of this place. It's all good. It's all very good. And if a live board inspires others to do the same, then we've done an amazing thing.

Also, I have a feeling there will be more songcrafter 'gatherings' happening around the world from time to time (he says hopefully...!), and it will be nice for the results of our live collabs to have a home.

Quote from: Greeny on June 23, 2011, 04:54:49 AMAlso, I have a feeling there will be more songcrafter 'gatherings' happening around the world from time to time (he says hopefully...!), and it will be nice for the results of our live collabs to have a home.

i'd love to puddle jump-seriously I'm in

I love the idea of a live music board. I'm not sure about combining it with some of the other things which have been suggested such as backers, but certainly gigs, rehearsals, open mics, live-in-the-living-room, etc. would be great to have in their own board. Excellent idea guys!

Quote from: oldcambazolahead on June 23, 2011, 01:47:47 AMis disrespectful, chill out.

You're kidding right? Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.......

 I'm not suggesting you were disrespectful to another member, but a fellow admin. It's quite apparent that one of the admin staff already cleaned a bunch of pointless posts out of this thread, because he considers it a worthy topic.

If anything that should be an apology, not an attempt at corrective action.

Quote from: Tony W on June 23, 2011, 06:23:28 AMIt's quite apparent that one of the admin staff already cleaned a bunch of pointless posts out of this thread, because he considers it a worthy topic.

As far as I know, no admins have moved or deleted any posts from this topic. Any posts that have disappeared were deleted by the original poster.

all posts removed have been removed by the original posters. i have not edited or removed any posts, my own included and any editing i have done on my own posts have been to correct typos or add a link.

I apologize, for an incorrect assumption.

The reason Sai is upset, is the same reason I gave up on this thread. About 40 posts ago, I posted a picture of what the child boards "would" look like if we restructure and utilize the. Then I have to filter through a mountain of shit which we deem "levity" to see if there are any legitimate responses to that post.

I take this thread seriously, and it's quite apparent Sai does as well. The "levity" is funny, I won't deny that, but it also monopolizes my time. Lets face it, there's no "shit filter" on this board. 10 minutes worth of manually filtering through crap, I could have utilized listening to 2 posted songs and leaving comments.

That would be the reason Sai is upset.

I liked Sai's suggested structure because it seemed "inclusive" to me. The fewer boards, the less issue with "this post shouldn't be in this board, it should be in that one" type issue (and less work for the mods). 64G's suggestion with more boards but no child boards also works but would be my second choice, but at the end of the day I don;t really mind.

Having a separate board for live performances, vids etc is a great idea as well.

While Sai was a bit over the top in showing his frustration, he did have a point. This is a serious topic and although a bit of levity is always a good thing, it is hard to wade through all of that and find the serious posts if you don't have much time (which is me at present). So I'm all for fun but let's also have a bit of topic discipline as well. Some of the forums I'm on have a "chat" thread or "way off topic" area for shooting the breeze if that's what folks want to do - might not be a bad idea here?

Cheers,

Nigel

I apologize to anyone here I may have offended. I obviously wasn't talking about everyone. Though there is no point in being specific, I think it is rather clear to whom the comments were directed.

I happen to care what happens here. It pisses me off when people I respect, appear to not give me the respect other members would no doubt expect.

When you were asked, like adults, to keep it out of the thread, and that was completely and purposefully disregarded. Of course I took it personally. I am the one who asked. But this is over now. My purpose is not to rekindle any anger here.

Quote from: Bluesberryand that is very good, you posted.  But, damn man, you can't control what everybody else on here is going to post, you have to sit back and see what comes, the crap and the gold, it all comes together.

You say that like this is a first grade classroom you can't control. Fun or not, we are all adults here, well most of us are... And correct me if I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that if we were face to face, having a serious discussion about something YOU thought was important, and just when you've finish stating your point, I laughed in your face. That wouldn't piss you off? I doubt you would have put it off to levity.

I don't want to get mad at anyone here. I like to have fun here as much as the next guy... why else would I keep coming back? It's definitely not because I enjoy getting frustrated and angry, that's for sure. There are times when the "adults" need to talk now and the kids need to go play somewhere else.

So again... sorry if I didn't take your foolish posts in the manner it which they were intended. Sorry that I obviously care about a particular subject that you do not. Believe me, the message is loud and clear. We are here to make music. I think I stay out of community discussions.

Thanks.

PS... If anyone has anything to say to me, just PM me. I think I'll take a friends advice and just ignore this thread.

ok drunk tank for the silly posts guys you all know where it is.
i would like to point out that just because people have posted irreverent posts does not mean they do not care about this site, in fact i know them to be deadly serious abbout it, i get lots of pms to that effect.

anyway here is the road to the drunk tank you can let of steam in there but dont get serious.

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=4429.0

Sai:  I could understand your anger if the off-topic posts were meant to mock you in some way. However, I don't think that's the case. It was just a moment of silliness (perhaps fueled by giggle juice) that gained momentum and grew to a couple of pages. We've seen this happen many times in other topics and I never suspected they were aimed at anyone in particular. I don't think this is any different. Please give everyone the benefit of the doubt and forget about it.

I haven't read your post yet because I want to give it proper consideration and I've been sidetracked with other topics. But I will read it and reply sometime today.

Yeah, I know what I said... but ORH sent me a link to his post here. So I HAD to come back to answer it. He tricked me!  ;D

Quote from: oldcambazolahead on June 23, 2011, 04:45:43 AMdoing some brainstorming, so let me run with my thoughts here.

in the past two days i posted a couple of tracks in backing board jams for folk to add to. barebones stuff 1 made by myself and another made by myself and another member.

this made me think. i back up most of my songs, so it wouldn't be too difficult to post unfinished versions, uno versions minus vocals, lead guitar et all.

no im not suggesting we do this instead of posting backing tracks specifically created for guitarists to practice over but as an addition.

i use the micro br to record and it would be very easy for me and certainly other mbr users to make a mix of a song, minus all the afforementioned, to let members play over, it might bring more people over to the backers section, and also it might lead to reinterpretations of members songs that take them in a completely different direction and maybe even turn them into new songs.

just a thought.

If a member posts a self made backer, and another member plays over it, is that a collaboration? I think these types of posts were posted under collabs in the past.

but what i am suggesting is that as many people who want to  use them can over and over again. i have posted a finished song in the backers thread minus my vocal, with the idea that folk use it just like a backer. as many people as want to over and over.
am i making sense , my mastery of the english language is not as cothingummy as 64's.

here is what i mean

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=11514.0

Yes, it's definitely a collab. But what makes it slightly different from a regular collab is that we could build a library of these member-made backers in a separate board and people who like playing over backing tracks could use these instead of using backing tracks recorded by unknown professional musicians. Then nearly all of my concerns about backing tracks would not apply and the finished recording could be posted in the DIY board since it's all performed by members.

Quote from: oldcambazolahead on June 23, 2011, 10:48:36 AMbut what i am suggesting is that as many people who want to  use them can over and over again. i have posted a finished song in the backers thread minus my vocal, with the idea that folk use it just like a backer. as many people as want to over and over.
am i making sense , my mastery of the english language is not as cothingummy as 64's.

here is what i mean

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=11514.0

No no... Your English is fine ;) I just meant that I think the few times this was done before (Henny's Life of a Bubble) it had gotten posted in collabs. ... nevermind... just checked and it was Originals.

I think it is a good idea though. I would never expect other members here to cut into their time just to make backers for a few people though. I can see why it might spur it on a bit more. And the added benefit of not having to worry if someone is using an illegal backing track. :)

im not talking about making backers, im talking about using existing songs made by members here, then removing the lead guitar and vox and the like from them and let folk play over them, im sure not every member would want to do that with their tunes, i know i can be a bit precious about my music, but the way i see it, those songs are  done and ive moved  onto doing the next one, so whatever folk wanna do with it do it.

When I am working on a song I always stop and make a mp3 after a certain spot, and it is very much like a backer at this point, drums, bass, rhythm guitars, keys, just no vocals or lead guitar stuff.  I have often thought that those would make great backers.  Likewise if I am working on a cover I do this too.  I do this so I can practice my singing and leads over it without the stress of feeling like I am recording, just free-form, let it flow naturally, see what comes.  It would be really cool to have a spot where we could post these, where it is easy to find.  Then anyone can grab them and jam over them, or put a new vocal over it, or whatever.  I love this idea. I have a bunch of these mps's on my computer as we speak.  

I am sure that even if someone is being "precious" with their music, as you say, I am sure they could part with a couple. If a halfway decent amount of us put in a couple, it would be quite a sizeable library of "backers".

i have posted three in the last few days, tonyw i think is gonna do something with one but not much interest shown on theother two. but i have about a dozen with me on a memory stick that i could post. fingers crossed that some interest might be shown and i'll post some more.

^ your inner puppy is running away with you Jim, we have to wait till the site is re-organized and have a proper spot for these before we all start putting up homemade backers don't we?

Quote from: oldbaldeaglehead on June 23, 2011, 03:01:24 PMi have posted three in the last few days, tonyw i think is gonna do something with one but not much interest shown on theother two. but i have about a dozen with me on a memory stick that i could post. fingers crossed that some interest might be shown and i'll post some more.

I think we may have to ...

er... what BB said...

To be fair Jim, that's like having a garage sale without advertising, and not putting anything outside to draw attention. Even the people who post in that board don't visit the board. Plus, it's predominantly used as a "finished work" board, not a potential collaboration hot spot.

I don't see any reason to wait on this idea, so I've gone ahead and made the board so that people will have somewhere to post their self-made backers. The name can be changed anytime if necessary so let's not worry about that just now. I just thought it would be good to have the board now while there's some interest.

You can get to it via the Forum Home page:

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?action=forum (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?action=forum)

When I have time, I'll add it to other menus.

Sai: I've read your post and have some comments and questions. But I'm just about to get my supper, and then I'm expecting a visitor for a short while. So it will probably be at least a few hours before I can reply.

cheers 64 i have moved the four songs into the new board.

I sense this thing is beginning to settle down... I really hope so...

                 my cock is farting cottage cheese, blood, pus and what can only be described as small bits of broken biscuits. I'm visiting doctors, surgeons, specialists and consultants on a bi- weekly basis. I have to travel 200 mile round trips. I am undergoing painful, unpleasent and humiliating biopsies weekly. I'm having a fucking grand old time. I love it. As much as y'oum all are posting stuff here. This place is one of the only things that are keeping my interests alive. Lets keep it 'homely'. Let's keep it in perspective. No one is dying. Dieing? How do you spell it?

dying

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 23, 2011, 03:37:19 PMthen I'm expecting a visitor for a short while. So it will probably be at least a few hours before I can reply.

If this were any other thread...... I'd have a friggin' field day with that statement.

i'd better not then.

Quote from: Tony W on June 23, 2011, 05:11:10 PM

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 23, 2011, 03:37:19 PMthen I'm expecting a visitor for a short while. So it will probably be at least a few hours before I can reply.

If this were any other thread...... I'd have a friggin' field day with that statement.

Yes - I love it!

Quote from: Tony W on June 23, 2011, 05:11:10 PM

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 23, 2011, 03:37:19 PMthen I'm expecting a visitor for a short while. So it will probably be at least a few hours before I can reply.

If this were any other thread...... I'd have a friggin' field day with that statement.

C`mon C`mon


DO IT!!!!

deep breathing..........control.............serenity now.........

Quote from: markywrench on June 23, 2011, 05:12:59 PM

Quote from: Tony W on June 23, 2011, 05:11:10 PM

Quote from: 64Guitars on June 23, 2011, 03:37:19 PMthen I'm expecting a visitor for a short while. So it will probably be at least a few hours before I can reply.

If this were any other thread...... I'd have a friggin' field day with that statement.

Yes - I love it!

says the guy who wrote a song about a hooker (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7685.0)


DAMN YOU PEOPLE TO HELL

take it to the drunk tank guys

Quote from: Tony W on June 23, 2011, 05:16:56 PMsays the guy who wrote a song about a hooker (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7685.0)

Don`t go to jail for chasing that  hooker`s tail!

No problem 64g...

BTW... in a different perspective, I imagine that this is a lot like trying to have a philosophical conversation in a strip club!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Tony W on June 23, 2011, 05:16:56 PMsays the guy who wrote a song about a hooker (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7685.0)


DAMN YOU PEOPLE TO HELL

Neil...Swansong? The Angel is really a hooker?  huh? No way, say it ain't so.

Quote from: Saijinn on June 22, 2011, 02:48:44 PMThis is intended to be about why the change should be about streamlining and there being no need to change the focus.

Streamlining:
Streamlining is okay but it's not the reason for the change. With the original proposal, we reduced the number of Post Your Work boards from 6 to 4. Now we've added Member-made backers and we've discussed the possibility of adding a Live Music board and a Bands boards. I think it's unlikely now that we'll have fewer Post Your Work boards. But that's okay. More boards will mean more flexibility in choosing the types of posts you want to see, and less posts to sort through in your favourite boards.

Changing focus:
The way I see it, we're not changing the focus. We're creating a focus. We don't currently have a defined focus other than the broad description Pedro put in the banner (Home Recording and Songwriting Community) and I think that's a bit too broad. Before the change to Songcrafters, I think everyone here understood that we were primarily a Boss users forum where people could learn about their Boss recorder, post songs they've created on it, and collaborate with other members. Then Pedro changed the name to Songcrafters and removed all mention of Boss. I believe we're still primarily a Boss users forum but you wouldn't know it when you visit the site for the first time. Why hide this fact? But that's another issue which can be discussed at a later date. My main concern right now is that people are coming here from other sites with expectations based on their experiences at these other sites. They post recordings where they've collaborated with several people from their other sites. That rarely, if ever, happened before the name changed to Songcrafters. They post older recordings which they've already posted on the other sites. Before the name change, most of our members were quite new to multitrack recording so they had no back catalogue of recordings and everything posted was newly-created. Some new members may see Songcrafters as yet another music site to post their older recordings on in the hope of boosting their CD sales or attracting interest from the music industry to get a record deal. I don't think that's good for Songcrafters. We were never about the business side of music before the name change. Most of our members had played music earlier in their lives and gave it up due to families, careers, etc. But now they've bought a BR and are just getting back into music. They already have jobs so music is just a hobby which they're very passionate about. It's not their career and they're not trying to make it their career. They just want to create music for their own enjoyment and to share it freely with others. Although, I'm sure a few wouldn't mind if a good opportunity came along to make a career out of their music.

Before the name change, I believe we had a strong focus, though it was never defined. It didn't need to be because we all came here for the same reasons. But now people are coming here for a variety of reasons. We've lost our focus and I think it's time we defined one, and it should be closer to what we had before we became Songcrafters.

QuoteCurrently, there is a known imbalance for certain boards.

By "imbalance", I assume you mean that the total number of posts is different in each board. Why is that a problem? The number of members interested in the subject of each board is also different. Do you think we should try to make our members change their interests so that everyone likes all subjects equally in order to balance the number of posts per board? Or do you think the boards should be based on something other than member interests? If so, I disagree. The whole reason for separate boards is so that people can keep up with all the new messages by reading only the ones in their own areas of interest. If we base the boards on something other than interests, people will not be able to find the posts they want to read and we might as well just have one big board.

QuoteWhat we have found out so far in this discussion, is that the majority of regular posters will fall into the "member only" (referred to as DIY from now on) board.

Using the information avilable to us, the breakdown of the current posts are as follows:

I'm not sure where these numbers are coming from but I'll assume that they're based on the total post counts for each board. So you've shown that the number of posts in each board varies a great deal. I think we knew that. We also know that people's interest in the subject of each board varies a great deal. If there was a way to measure this interest, I'm sure you'd find that the numbers are the same as those for the post counts. People post the type of music that interests them. They listen to the type of music that interests them. And they comment on the type of music that interests them. So it's to be expected that the number of posts will be a direct reflection of people's interests. That's why Original Songs has the most posts and Backing Track Jams has the least. We have a lot of people who are interested in original songs and we have very few people who are interested in backing track jams. That last sentence will continue to be true regardless of how we organise the boards.

QuoteThe backers and non-members will now be relegated to a low active board, while those who make up the majority still constitute the more active board, by quite a bit.

The activity is a result of the interest. We can't change people's interests, nor should we. With all due respect, it sounds like that's what you want. It sounds like you want to put posts with little interest into the same boards with lots of interest in the hope that people's interests will change and they'll then comment on the posts they're currently skipping. People will still view only what interests them and skip the rest. This just makes it harder to find the stuff that interests them. And it defeats the purpose of having multiple boards. No time is saved if we can't choose just the posts that interest us. That's why the boards must represent different areas of interest. In fact, I'm beginning to have doubts about lumping all of the non-member posts into a General board. Perhaps these should be separated further to better reflect the areas of interest (bt/midi/loops, bands, non-member collabs, etc). This will give people more choice when viewing posts so they'll save more time by only viewing what interests them most. That is, afterall, the objective of having multiple boards.

QuoteAt this point, it really has nothing to do with being fair or otherwise, but it does show that the restructure will not really achieve much more than it is currently

I disagree. It achieves something very important. It helps to give the site a focus and provides a place where people who believe in that focus can share their music with each other.

Quotethe only thing that changes is that some members will no longer be able to post in the higher traffic'd area the members they previously interacted with.

But why would they want to post in a board where they know that the other members have a different interest? Isn't that a bit like preaching Pastafarianism at the Vatican? Wouldn't they be much better off posting in a board where they know that all of the members share their interest?

And aren't the members they currently interact with the members who share their interests? Won't they still be interacting with the members who share their interests after the reorganisation?

64g,

I started to break things down for another long reply when I noticed something...

It is obvious, judging by your comments, that I am completely incapable of accurately making a point in which others can easily understand. I apologize. This is pretty common when trying to discuss countering points of view in any manner that is not face to face. Our programmers were notorious for skipping morning meetings and then not understand the designer's emails regarding what needed to be done. :D

No hard feelings, but I have erased everything else in my reply as I have no further motivation in continuing to waste my time on this. As others have correctly pointed out to me, both directly and indirectly, this is hardly important enough worry about. I told you what I thought, and you are free to do with that what you will. But I think I'll get back to more important things, like all the posts I am still behind on.  :-[

I sincerely wish you the best of luck with your changes.  

Thanks ;)

I just don't understand all this angst about the "entry level" folks and marginalizing certain types of posts, and people feeling marginalized, for me personally, I don't think it was ever a big issue, I don't see how suddenly this site will be any less welcoming and encouraging of newcomers and beginner music dudes, or anybody posting their music on here.  We are the site, not the structure or the rules, we, the active core are the site. And each one of us is very welcoming, interactive, encouraging, supportive of any newcomer, of any new music posted.  This will never change untill we all get too old to type on a computer keyboard.  I just never saw this as an issue. Does anybody think that we would stop searching out new music, and new members and lavishing them with comments and encouragement  and support suddenly, regardless of what board they post on.  All this stuff about what board stuff is posted on is just empty arguments IMO.  I will continue to scan all boards looking for new music and so and so will others of the active core members.  We will continue to make this site a friendly and great place for all who want to make music and post here.  Nothing will change in that regard.  I just don't buy the argument at all.  All these arguments about what will happen after a re-org are just guesses.  Nobody knows what the outcome will be.  All we can know is that the core group will continue to interact, embrace new members and keep the fun going here, regardless of how the boards are structured, thats all we can know.  As 64G just said, everyone of us will continue to do what we do now, act towards each other, and whatever music is posted, the same as we do today.  Why would that change just because the boards are re-arranged, I just don't see it.

I totally agree, BB.

We've never been anything less than supportive and accepting to each and every new member who rocks up here. As you say, it's a state of mind and an attitude that defines why this site has fostered such close relationships, amazing collaborations, and (most importantly) great music. You could cut it down to a single board or expand it to a hundred, and nothing would change in that respect. However, I do see the importance of making the site look as welcoming and easy-to-understand as possible for new members - especially if it makes the difference to them staying or moving on. But at the end of the day, people either feel at home here or they don't.

There IS no problem. I just happen to do predictive analysis for a living, and thought I saw something in which I may be able to help. I was obviously wrong. That's fine. In order to do it accurately, you need to know the people or community that is involved. Apparently, I do not know this quite as well as I thought. No reason to worry about it any further. I wasn't being a smart ass with my last comments. I was sincere. I don't care anymore. Period. It's all good. ;)

Just my two penneth ! you lads do a bloody good job , from hosting the site to giving mega information out and support to all of its members and offspring !! you hold the keys to the house and long may it continue ! some grest ideas for everyone to post there own music in whatever form it takes at whatever level ! how good is that !!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Bluesberry on June 24, 2011, 05:28:55 AMI just don't understand

That's what I love right there, because guess what?

I just don't understand either. Or maybe I just can't convince you that you're wrong and I'm right and viceversa.

You know what I do understand? We damn sure love this place, even if we'll never see it the same way.

64Guitars... Your articulation has been incredible in the last few posts, and it's become absolutely clear that you and the admin team have weighed every angle. I'm looking forward to the proposed changed commencing.

Long live Bossbr.net Songcrafters!

Quote from: Tony W on June 24, 2011, 01:01:45 PMYou know what I do understand? We damn sure love this place, even if we'll never see it the same way.

Nice sentiment Tony, thats the underlying thing going through all these 1000's of words spilled onto this thread, we all love this place, love the people hanging out here, and love the interaction, we even love a good argument discussion from time to time, and yes, we probably will never see eye to eye on everything ( I agree with you on that one lol) will we.  But I suppose that is a good thing too, it would be a much more boring site if we all chronically agreed with each other.  Nice Tony.  I don't know about anybody else, but I am just about all talked out here in this thread hahaha.  I keep saying I will stay away and not waste anybody's time reading any more words from me, but I am drawn back time and time again.  This may be it, no more words from me on this topic, see if I can do it.  Its a hell of a discussion folks. Long live Songcrafters, god bless you one and all.

I just wanted to get the last word...

Blooby

In the end that IS the only thing that is important. Not worth being mad at my fellow "songcrafterians" over some misunderstanding.

Just please don't tell me that this focus create/change/whatever is gonna result in a name change. Then I got SONGCRAFTERS tattooed across my back for nothing! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I wrote a clearly thought out comment to this question and then the flipping WiFi timed out on me.  So in short.
No matter what the format, if the people are as nice and encouraging - then it doesn't really matter.  Thanks for putting up with my crap guys,  I really appreciate ti.

Songcrafters rocks

Leigh

Quote from: Gu Djin on July 14, 2011, 01:45:35 PMThanks for putting up with my crap guys,  I really appreciate ti.

one man's crap is another man's gold

after all that, did we actually change anything, i don't think we did. or did someone sneak in one night when i was drunk and replace everything with exact replicas so i  wouldn't notice.

Shhh.... you're suppose to forget about it so it can be implemented. We were only 27 hours away but now we gotta wait another 4 months and 6 days. *sigh*

I haven't forgotten about it. It's crossed my mind several times since this discussion ended. The admin team needs to spend some time discussing this and decide what we're going to do. The trouble is, every time I think of it, I'm usually busy with something else so I postpone it. At the moment, I'm busy updating the old festival jukeboxes (YuleFest, ZappaFest, etc.) so that they have the same layout as the newer ones and integrate into the site better. There are still half a dozen or so to update. Maybe after that the admin team can get back to discussing the board reorganization.

not tonight i hab bin drinkum hip burc part