Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[Bluesberry]

^ 64G, this song database idea sounds really good, amazing infact.  Thank you for all your hard work around here.

[Flash Harry]

^ 64G, this song database idea sounds really good, amazing infact.  Thank you for all your hard work around here.

Hear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

[64Guitars]

I have doubts about the concept of separating the "everything performed by members" and "not everything performed by members".

I think that in most cases each one of us lives several hundreds of miles far away other Songcrafters, and unless we are poly-instrumentalist (of course I am NOT...), if you go on on this way we could have the "everything" category full of just voice & guitar (with some keyboards...) songs. So, quite simple compositions, without the sound of reed, strings, synths and so on.
Of course I talk by my point of view, since I use often (legal) backing tracks by BIAB to enrich my performance. And as far as I know, usually all the loops can be freely used, even for commercial use. So, separating the "everything" from the "not everything", giving this way a negative connotation to the "not everything", has no sense, IMHO. We listen to each song on the whole, regardless of what has been used, of course if everything used is legal.

To be clear: nothing against a single instrument, or single instrument plus voice song, but I would expect the same if someone thinks about music as a more complex thing...and this of course requires loops and/or backing tracks. Again, everything used must be legal, but I think that this is responsability of the poster. A disclaimer of the website management would be right, in this sense.

Thanks for your comments, Alfredo. I don't think there's any danger of the DIY boards becoming only vocals and guitar. Many of our members own and play several instruments (if Bluesberry buys any more instruments, he'll have to get a bigger house ). Also, many members, including yourself, have guitar or keyboard synthesizers which can emulate other instruments. Those are welcome in the DIY boards because the musical performance is yours. So it will still be possible to create very elaborate, layered recordings with many instruments, either on your own or with other members. And we very much encourage our members to do just that because that's what multitrack recording is all about and it's the spirit of Songcrafters. But, if I understand BIAB correctly, it consists of loops of short musical phrases which you arrange in the desired order to create your backing tracks. This can produce some really nice results (which you've demonstrated many times) but if my assumption is correct, the musical performance on those tracks is not your own. So we'd ask you to post them in the General Post Your Work board rather than the DIY boards.

I hope that people won't see the General board as a negative thing. Remember, this will be the main board for song posts. There will be no restrictions on this board except for the general restrictions that apply to all of the boards (must be legal; must have member content; must be finished, except for the Work in Progress board). So the General board becomes the norm and the DIY boards become the exception. If you look at it that way, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with posting in the General Post Your Work board.

[Oldrottenhead]

Hear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

i second that emotion

[Burtog]

Hear hear! - If it wasn't for 64Guitars, much of this site would resemble a scrap yard....  He almost singlehandedly maintains and supports songcrafters and I for one am very grateful.

i second that emotion

I actually think that the site runs brilliantly already, i've spent a great couple of months learning and listening so far, it's also strangely addictive. The time spent by a great number of people putting up information and advise to others is fantastic and much appreciated. Thanks 64 Guitars and co.! 10/10.

[64Guitars]

I would have separate boards for Originals and Covers in lieu of child boards strictly for navigation purposes. The "Originals" board is the heart and soul of this forum, there's no way it should become a child board. As a matter of fact, it should hold the top level position in the "post your work" section. My child boards barely receive any attention for a couple reasons. They require additional navigation which surprisingly people don't do. We're a one click society. The final reason: Child boards are quite easy to collapse accidentally, and will increase administration requirements.

Yeah, I think you might be right. We used to have some child boards here but Pedro eventually got rid of them. I assume he had some good reasons for doing that, though I'm not sure what they were. So, if we go ahead with this, I think I'll just rename the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards to DIY Originals and DIY Covers, and keep them as separate boards rather than child boards.

I'm on the fence with backing tracks. Part of me wants to view it as a logistic nightmare. If the stipulation is legality, then it suggests that the admin team would be required to investigate each post independently. Hell, I don't know if the backers I've posted are legit or not, mostly because I don't care.... sorry.

Thanks for your honesty. You've illustrated one of my greatest fears about backing tracks. Most people don't know or care if the backing tracks they use can legally be reposted. So it's practically a certainty that illegal recordings will be posted. There's no way that the admin team can identify which recordings are legal and which are not, so it's unfair to expect us to take responsibility for the actions of a few thoughtless members. But I suspect that any legal action would be taken against the admin team, especially Flash Harry as the owner of the site. That's really not fair, especially since none of us on the admin team are fans of backing tracks. We could avoid all of the legal uncertainty by simply not allowing any backing tracks at all. But, instead, we're trying to accomodate the few members who like them. So I think those members should try to be more understanding about our position on backing tracks and be grateful that they're allowed to post them at all. The same applies to loops and midi files. Some of them are licensed for personal use only and cannot be legally reposted on the internet. But I doubt if most of our members know or care if they have the right to repost the loops and midi files they're using in their songs.

Maybe we should require a disclaimer on every song post that uses backing tracks, loops, or midi files. "I certify that I have the right to post this file on this site and accept full responsibility that I am using it legally. The owner and administrators of this site are in no way liable for any consequences as a result of my post. Any liability is entirely my own."  No, I'm not suggesting that we do that. But it makes you think, doesn't it?  Posters would think twice about using files they found on the internet if it was their asses on the line instead of ours. I think we'd see a lot fewer backing tracks, loops, and midi files used in songs. And the few brave members who did use them would be a lot more careful about making sure that they have the right to repost those files.

I don't see any difference between backers and all the sampling that's been posted at the top level boards. I considered that an unfair distinction, so this levels the playing field a bit. Get it, playing field...

I agree. Loop samples aren't much different than backing tracks. Neither are performed by a member, and the admin team cannot easily ascertain whether they're legal or not. It's the same with downloaded midi files. So it makes sense to post them all in the same board.

Geir brings up a solid point with the keyboard capabilities. I can make some pretty amazing soundscapes with my keyboard with minimal key strokes, slap 3 minutes worth of guitar work on it, and call it an original which sounds like a masterpiece (relative to my skill level). Ultimately my personal feel on this would be that these posts belong in the "general" section. Lets face it, I can add in a symphony with a push of a button and a couple key strokes.

Yes, as I said in my reply to Geir's post, there are some levels of automation on some keyboards which shouldn't be allowed in the DIY boards. For example, the auto-accompaniment on my Yamaha keyboard shouldn't be allowed because it creates a complete bass track without me doing anything except playing some chords. The chords are my performance but the bass is not. But I think things like arpeggiators and vocal harmonizers are perfectly acceptable since you still have to play most of the notes yourself. In those cases, the technology is augmenting your performance rather than being a substitute for it.

I would hope that everyone will be honest about their use of backing tracks, loops, midi files, and keyboard automation. There's no shame in saying that you've used one of these techniques in your recording. And if you make it clear in your message which parts are you and which are not, then people can comment on your parts. But I think it would be very shameful to post something in the DIY boards knowing that you didn't perform it yourself but letting others think that you did. So take credit only for the parts you've performed, and give credit to the musicians who performed the other parts, even if you don't know who they are.

[Bluesberry]

So, if we go ahead with this, I think I'll just rename the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards to DIY Originals and DIY Covers, and keep them as separate boards rather than child boards.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[T.C. Elliott]

I like less boards. I would go so far as to say combining Covers and Originals into one board would help a lot. I very seldom go to the covers board. I'm not sure why, honestly. But the Originals board I frequent at least every other day. (Although I've been remiss in my commenting, which I'm suitably ashamed of.)

A few questions:

Is it okay if I submit members only in general instead of DIY? Would it get moved if I did?

If I don't use a drum machine, but instead get a drum track from a friend in London does it qualify as DIY? What's the difference if I use a drum machine or a r.l. drummer a few thousand miles away?

If I use the built in Drum Machine on my 900 I can post in DIY. If I don't program the drum machine is it still DIY?

As an alternative, why not have one board for finished music and have tags for what is 100% member certified and Covers and everything else? Then make a songs list that you can sort. Ie, not necessarily a separate board to post, but a heading you can click that lists all the songs that you can sort by post date/time, most recent comment, cover tags, or member name, or a bunch of things, really. (There are some sites that do a great job of this.)

If I have backing vox from a friend in London (harmony vox on the chorus) does it negate it's DIY status? What if I get her to sign up but she never posts a song or a message?


Thanks for your time. I'm kind of playing devils advocate. I think I like the highlighting of 100% member contributions. I think I'd rather have tags, but the way you've described it sounds like it would work. If these changes take place I would certainly still be checking in on a regular basis. It wouldn't change my admiration for this place at all (and might actually help it.)

And a big Thank You to the entire admin staff is certainly more than well deserved. You've got my support in every endeavor that is helpful to DIY musicians.

T.C. (pigfarmer jr)

P.S. - Boss - I think highlighting the Boss information is a great idea, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it in such a manner that would (inadvertently) discourage another platform or cause them to feel less than welcome.

[Bluesberry]

For me, the ultimate goal of this site, the reason I found this place and am very loyal to keep coming back, that goal is learning and continuos improvement and love for the craft of songwriting, performing, singing, writing lyrics, writing original songs, learning to play as many instruments as I need to be able to craft complete original songs.  That is what I get out of this place and is the main focus for me......and I also come here to listen to other like-minded folks doing the same thing.  I love hearing original songs made entirely by member or collaboration of members.  That is what keeps bringing me back.  That is the most important thing we do around here.  I started my musical life 3 years ago as a guitar hack that only jammed to backing tracks.  That was fine for a while, but getting on here I realized the sky was the limit and I started slowly to craft my own songs, and what a thrill that was.  This site is a nurturing ground, and fertilizer for learning to play instruments, write lyrics, learn to sing, write original chord progressions, learn to record/mix and master.  This is what should be celebrated and encouraged.  For this reason I agree with 64G's idea for DIY Originals and DIY Covers. It is in celebration of the hard work and huge creative effort it takes to produce such works.  The same with Covers, again, if the member or members played everything themselves, that is a much more satisfying, interesting thing than just taking a backer and adding a few bits over the top.  The act of starting completely  from scratch and ending up with a cover, while usually not exactly the same as the original, takes real inspiration and effort to pull off.  I find doing covers like this harder than originals sometimes.  And I always get inside the original song and learn something in the process.  In terms of effort involved, and inspiration involved, and the reward after it is finished, it is the songs that we start completely from scratch, play everything ourselves, all the choices that get made, that is the real craft going on, and that is the kind of efforts that this site should be promoting, encouraging, celebrating, proudly displaying.  Playing a guitar lead over a backer is fun, and a good learning experience, and god knows, I have posted my fair share of guitar solos over backers over the years.  But for effort involved, creativity required, craft, a backer jam is not in the same league as an original song or originally conceived cover.  It takes me a couple of weeks to finish an original song, a month sometimes.  Likewise for covers, they can easily take a week or two to do.  Adding a guitar solo over a backer is usually an hour from start to finish, to posted mp3.  It should not be put in the same board as DIY Original or DIY Covers.  It is a different kind of beast and needs a board where like minded efforts go.  Imagine working for a month on an original song, played everything, wrote the lyrics, sang, etc, and finally got it posted and watch as a bunch of backers type of posts come along and bury it onto page 2 within half a day.  Not in the same level of effort, not in the same level of interest (for me), should not be on the same board.  Thats why I endorse 64G's idea here, it makes sense to me based on how I see this site, how I interact here, what I am interesting in seeing, and the number one goal for me on this site is to promote learning to play your instruments, learn to sing, learn to write lyrics, learn to perform, learn to write engaging original songs and interesting versions of Covers, learn to record well, collaborate with like-minded folks.  Thats the heart of this site for me.

[64Guitars]

Well said BB! You've hit on most of the things that we on the admin team feel strongly about and even mentioned a few that I hadn't thought of. That's what Songcrafters is all about and the direction we want it to continue heading in. That's not to say that there can't be a place for backing tracks and the like, but we'll never encourage them in the same way we do the DIY boards. And as you said, it would be wrong to allow backers and the like to push DIY songs to page 2 when the DIY songs required considerably more time and effort to create. That's why they need to be in different boards.

Thank you for a brilliant post!