Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[Tony W]

64, your posts are getting more snippy and biased by the count. I'd definitely feel the same if I were in your shoes, so maybe it's time for you to take a back seat and let one of the other admins continue the discussion for a while?

Are musicians so egotistical that they can't bear the thought of another musician's song getting more listens?

That's an obvious yes, hell you've proved in this thread, along with various others, at least from the perspective of a guy who allegedly spend 10 minutes doing a karaoke guitar solo...... Add that to others who are concerned that there's going to be an onslaught of backer posts pushing their hard earned efforts to page 2...... Fuck yeah, that certainly qualifies as EGO. Oops, I should have censored out the reference to backing tracks....

You'd be happy with 2 or 3 comments? Start posting a few songs, then talk about how 2 or 3 comments feel while plenty of other people get 20. Yep, there's ego there too.

DIY isn't better, we just enjoy it more? WOW nice. Our personal interests. I'm glad you're not speaking on my behalf, because my personal interest is to show compassion and good will to the the rest of the forum members.

There seems to be a great push to exclude people with different interests, considering we don't want to exclude people with different interests.

The most important question is, Why are you on an island with barely any other admin speaking up? You're left holding the bag in this thread, and taking all the shit, including this post. Right now, those who oppose this change are addressing you exclusively, because you're the only one interacting. That's a fucking travesty. If the rest of the admin group feels these proposed changes are for the good of the community, then stand the fuck up, make the changes and end this train wreck of a thread.

I'm officially off this bus. I'm almost positive that not a single post I've made in this thread has served any purpose what so ever.

64, I really hope you take the opportunity to walk away from this thread, there's no need for you taking the brunt of all the rebuttal alone.

[T.C. Elliott]

Tony W and Saijinn are both care quite a bit to be this passionate about how they feel. 64g and the entire admin staff deserve credit and respect for the efforts they've put into this site. I've tried out several other song posting sites and always come back to this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest, imo.

But calling 64g **edit** 's posts **/edit** snippy when other posts in here are as snippy or more so isn't helpful at all. From what I see the real objection is in the description of users of backing tracks and non DIY posts as defined here. But really, think about it.  From what I can tell, if certain adjectives weren't used then the argument would have ceased by now.

The admin staff sees a need for a division so as not all posts are on one board. Dividing 100% member posts from all the other posts is the most fair i can think of. Lyrics and BT posts are mostly ignored now. After the change they'll be right next to posts that I currently put in originals (with backing vox and additions from my London friends.) That means I'll see them where as right now I don't. Maybe I'm lazy, but the number of posts/comments in those threads is telling. If this helps even a little bit then it's worth it.
(But if what I read is true, that Tony W and the rest go to a different site for BT etc, that would explain why they aren't as popular here. If many of the members that post in originals went to a different site that board would be a lot slower as well.)

What other division works better? Seriously. I haven't heard a suggestion I like better. I, too, was originally skeptical to say the least. But I'm giving the admin staff the benefit of the doubt. I do NOT think the intent of these changes is to make the site worse for anyone.

[Flash Harry]

64 guitars speaks for all admins on the forum. We keep out of these things as individuals generally to avoid mixing messages. We discuss things between ourselves and 64 has a good way way with words. I don't care who has a swipe, as long as there is a constructive intent.

The normal rules apply to this thread as they do to any other thread on the board. As long as things do not become a personal attack then we let it ride. But we are not here to be aunt sallies. I know that passions are running high, but keep it civil. 

[guitarron]

I forgot to mention covers should go bye bye too unless the copyright is public domain or the poster has rights to use the cover.

problem solved-less boards needed

[alfstone]

What i have distilled from this memo is, admin (the collective) wants to cover their ass from copyright infringement. That's completely reasonable. That should be the foremost consideration. My ass wont be in as much trouble for posting the remake of "Purple Rain" as the site owner would be- i guess. So this is truly a valid concern for admin.

....But with the focus of this site being "songcrafting" and the possible legal ramifications of bt's, maybe it's time we stop the bt's all together.

Wait, don't flame me just yet, i have a great amount of respect for members that love the bt's- but in the spirit of covering admin's ass-maybe it's time.

I agree.
A point to underline: since, quoting guitarron, the focus of the site is "songcrafting", IMHO there is to distinguish between "ready" backing tracks, already available on the internet, and "homemade", "songcrafted"   backing tracks coming to birth on this site for the very first time.
I mean, in most of my songs/arrangements, both originals and covers, I use BIAB to make my own backing tracks (...and making a good backing track this way requires often many, many hours of careful choices, arranging and so on, but this is not the point...). By this point of view, no legal problem is involved, since buying BIAB, I know that all the files (backing tracks) that I will create using this software are royalty free.
The same for loops. Usually loops are royalty free.

Again, guitarron's considerations open again a problem that after so many messages isn't clear to me: are we talking about (absolutely reasonable) legal problems, or, as in the thread's title, about Songcrafters' philosophy? And (this too isn't clear to me yet) in what way a change in the web site's philosophy can solve the legal issues?

Alfredo

[AndyR]

Hi 64 - from the way you were quoting it, I'm not entirely sure you got the gist of what I was trying to say, sorry I didn't get it across properly.

I'm not actually objecting to anything myself, you guys must do what you think needs doing, but I think you need to be aware of what some members are thinking about it and how some might potentially feel later. I personally would be happy if it all went in one big pot, I have no problem with my stuff disappearing off the front page, it always seems to come back sooner or later, and who cares if it doesn't? It's there for someone to find if they get interested in my name.

I'm just feeling a little uneasy about some of the language that's been used to describe things. My uneasiness didn't arise from the original post with the proposal, I was very happy with the ideas at first. My uneasiness actually comes from the some of the replies posted to other people's concerns. I definitely have the impression now that you and some others will regard the DIY boards containing stuff played by members only as "the place to be" on songcrafters - that might not be what you intend, but that's how it's coming across to me. My examples of non-performing writers and people who need to use singers they know because they're the wrong sex themselves will be excluded from this "place to be", or at least as it stands at the moment - and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I wish I could explain to you why I feel uncomfortable. I'll try, but it won't be very clear. It's something to do with how amazing but how fragile creativity is. And how wonderful this site has been for nurturing creativity. Any perception of specialness or worthiness, no matter how well-meaning the actions that have caused it, has a negative flip-side. I don't particularly give a monkey's about people like me, or Greeny, or orh, or geir, or you name them - we are still fragile but we're "in" and we know it. It would take a major campaign to deflate most of us (apologies if any of you are feeling artistically fragile at the moment). I'm worried about the people who are just starting, who are taking their first steps to get their stuff "out there". It might be that these measures will have no effect on these people at all, but I wouldn't be feeling uncomfortable if I was convinced that that was the case. Any obstacle to acceptance by your peers is another nail in your creativity. Anyone who leaves or has left songcrafters because they feel excluded has had their creativity damaged by the rest of us... we're all responsible for it... but we won't even know what we've done to them because they'll just disappear feeling sad and not good enough to make music. I know that's the risk we all take by posting anything, and we're meant to be grown-ups. But we're all fragile when it comes to self expression. What if this idea of "all members only DIY boards" for the sake of... (I don't know, why do we want/need it, what does it satisfy?) ... what if this idea does actually create a perception of the "in" and the "not so in" crowd? Unless I've misunderstood his posts, and I hope I have, there's already a guy on another thread who seems to be worrying that his songs aren't original enough because he's using the drum machine on his keyboard!!! Is this what we want?

To be honest, if you were able to market the DIY boards as "only post in here if you couldn't get anyone other than yourself or the usual suspects to play on it" then I wouldn't feel uncomfortable at all - that's exactly where I'd be wanting to post (but, it would have a whole load of issues in the other direction!)


I've got to go to bed. Peace - and, like I said at the top, you're the guys running it, you must do what you think is the right thing to do. I wouldn't want your job on here or the stuff that's getting chucked at you, and I value that you're all prepared to take it on. 64G, you must have had a particularly difficult weekend because of this thread - I wish I could think of something better to say than thanks for putting up with it.

[Greeny]

If it's a JustInFest, I'm leaving...

I think that Tim wouldn't be far behind

Too bloody right!

Unless it's a 'Just in Beaver' fest I'm not interested, lol.

[Greeny]

Make music, not war.

Participate and grow.

What's so hard about that?

[Ferryman_1957]

My final comment would be try to keep things inclusive and try to avoid any more "us and them" feelings if possible.

But ultimately the admin team runs things and now owns the site. If you want a specific direction and focus, it's yours to state and say. You have all the hard work of running the site (which is much appreciated, please don't think otherwise) so at the end of the day the final decisions are yours and we should respect them.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Geir]

Make music, not war.
Participate and grow.
What's so hard about that?

Wise words !!!!

Welcome, friend!

Welcome to our home recording and songwriting community. Here you can share your music and thoughts, and also get technical support on the recording aspect.

I think the spirit of songcrafters is the friendly, supportive nature of the members. It's a great place to grow as a musician/songwriter. It's a great place to make new friends. This wouldn't have been so if not for all the work the admin team has done to make it possible.