Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[j.g.]

I have not had much time to participate on here recently, but I have been caught up in this thread, and must have read every comment on this intriguing subject.
Being only a minor player on the Forum, I hope I can still give an opinion and make suggestions. Looking at this from the outside, I think 64 and the admins do need (and are trying) to cover their backs with regard to the copyright situation as they feel they would be held responsible if legal action occurred.
Surely it would be sensible to make the boards which may have copyright issues which can be challenged, into members' only boards. On signing for membership everyone should complete a disclaimer on line, to say they accept they have the rights or ownership to the parts that they posts and they are not subject to copyright. They should also sign or agree to say it is they who accept the responsibility of the post and not the administration of the board. A disclaimer to say the administrators would cancel any membership of anyone violating this, would take the onus from the administrators if any action took place. 
Sorry if I am talking out of turn, but this may help resolve the copyright issue which is suggested could be serious if legal action is taken.

[henwrench]

What an intense thread. I can't really understand what all the hoo-haa is about.

      So the comment I'm about to add is not intended to offend, and concerns the matter of member only submissions.

      I took this to mean that the member who posted song X made at least one/some/all of the noises.

   I have literally hundreds of recordings of songs that I have produced, engineered and mixed. And as I am incredibly fortunate to have people here who like the shit I do, I'm sure that on hearing these recordings it would be agreed that the songs have a huge flavour of 'henwrench'. That some kind of 'henwrench' DNA runs through the songs. And so it should. I did produce the songs.
    But there is no way I would post the songs here, 'cos they are not songs that I found in my brain. I found them in somebody elses brain and merely helped and suggested ways of delivering the song, albeit in a manner becoming of 'henwrench'. A kind of 'What would henwrench do?' interpretation.

     To summise...I think what the Admin team are trying to say is.....

      Don't post shit here unless you (the member) made at least one/some/all of the noises.


                                                                           henwrench

[AndyR]

I kind of agree with you henny on much of what you say - I've even got bunches of recordings of bands I was in that I have no intention of posting here (or anywhere else, for that matter). In my case it's mainly because I can't be @rsed to get the other band member's permission . But it's also because they were recorded in studios of various levels of "professional" (actually my BR1600 contains more sh1t than two of them did put together!) All the songs are mine however, and I am probably making the most noise on them, but I ain't posting them as "me" unless I re-record them "solo".

I've also sometimes helped record some other folks in a rather ham-fisted way on home recording gear. I wouldn't dream of posting the older ones. HOWEVER... I might be keen on posting one if I did it now on the BR kit, even if I hadn't played on it, because it would be an example of my growing engineering/producing skills in a home recording environment. I did always think that was one of the ideas behind songcrafters myself...

Actually, from what 64G's said, or my understanding of it, it would be ok to post this, in the General board.

Unless we've misunderstood, the folks in this thread who are expressing concerns around this area are expressing concerns because there is a proposed distinction between:

A: None or at least one/some of the noises were made by one or more members (can go in General)
and
B: All of the noises (except drums) must have been made by one or more members (can go in DIY)

I see why the distinction, and it makes sense. I'll actually be free to post whatever I want to wherever I want.

However, some, not all by any means, but some of the folks that I have looked up to on here will not have that freedom anymore (unless they learn to play guitar, get a sex change, or convince a bunch of other people to join a forum they might not want to join). These folk will have to post in General. And this is the cruncher for me: that makes me want to post in General as well, and ignore the DIY threads (for posting purposes, at least, and in my experience it means I won't be going by the DIY threads that often if I'm not posting in them). There's another reason for me wanting to post in General - it feels more of a challenge. Although I'm a confirmed DIYer, I like my posts fighting with all manner of other posts from people who are using stuff not allowed in DIY... When I record, I'm actually trying to hide the fact I'm a DIYer, I want it to sound like a bunch of dudes in a room - so I want it compared that stuff.

Anyway, I'm waffling again.

Like Nigel said, so much more clearly than I can - I think we need to "try to keep things inclusive and try to avoid any more "us and them" feelings if possible".

I'm free to do what I want under the proposals, I'm not actually too much bothered either way. But I could see a bunch of people on this thread expressing some sort of fear. And when I thought about it on saturday, I realised that they could be right and I ought to pay some attention while opinions are being sought. And I realised I have the same fear - a General and DIY split does have a strong potential to introduce a further "us and them" to songcrafters.

If that is actually the intention, funnily enough, I still have no big issue with it . We just all need to be aware that some folks we imagined were "us" might actually turn out to be "them", including ourselves!

[64Guitars]

I mean, in most of my songs/arrangements, both originals and covers, I use BIAB to make my own backing tracks (...and making a good backing track this way requires often many, many hours of careful choices, arranging and so on, but this is not the point...).

I'm not very familiar with BiaB so please forgive me (and correct me) if I make some wrong assumptions about it. But isn't it fair to say that BiaB allows you to arrange short phrases (loops?) recorded by professional musicians or generated by the software? So the arrangement of the backing track is yours but the performance is not. None of the instruments in the backing track would actually be played by you, they'd be played by a professional musician or generated by the software. Is that correct?

If that's correct, then I don't think songs which use BiaB should be posted in the same board as songs where the member actually played every instrument. It's a whole different kind of music creation.

What if someone posted a song which was created entirely in BiaB? Should that be allowed? As I've said many times, songs posted in any Post Your Work board must have at least some member performance. But how much member performance is enough? If someone created a song enitirely in BiaB, then added some cowbell which they performed themselves, is that enough? Should it be allowed in the DIY board? It's crystal clear to me that the answer is no. The cowbell performance is too trivial. The song is not a member performance regardless of the cowbell and it doesn't belong in the DIY board. But how can we manage the DIY board if we're to sometimes allow the use of BiaB but other times not, based on the amount of member performance in the song? How do we measure it? How much is enough? It's too subjective and becomes a nightmare for the admin team to manage. Every time we move a post out of the DIY board because we feel it doesn't have enough member content, the member will argue that it does have enough member content and that he's being treated unfairly because we've allowed other songs which he feels have no more member performed content than his. So I think it's not possible to allow BiaB to be used in DIY posts only some of the time. We either have to allow it all of the time or never. If my assumptions about BiaB are correct, then I think it should never be allowed in the DIY boards. The same applies to backing tracks, loops, and midi files for the same reasons. They are not member performances, and including varying amounts of member performances with them isn't enough to justify their inclusion in the DIY boards.

I had a quick look at the home page for BiaB and read this description:

Band-in-a-Box is so easy to use! Just type in the chords for any song using standard chord symbols (like C, Fm7, or C13b9), choose the style you'd like, and Band-in-a-Box does the rest... Band-in-a-Box automatically generates a complete professional-quality arrangement of piano, bass, drums, guitar, and strings or horns.

Plus, add REAL accompaniment to your song with RealTracks. These are recordings of top studio musicians that replace the MIDI track with audio instruments. They sound like real musicians, because they ARE real musicians!

Again, I may be wrong about BiaB because I'm not familiar with it, and I don't mean to belittle your BiaB work, Alfredo. I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort into it and the results sound fantastic. But the description above makes it sound like very little musical training and skill is needed to make good sounding music with BiaB. I'm sure your musical abilities allow you to create a much better song with BiaB than a non-musician could. But it sounds like BiaB is designed so that even a non-musician could create pretty good music.

To illustrate my point, have a look at this site:  http://soundation.com/studio

I think a child with no music training could learn to use that site and make great-sounding music with little effort. You just pick a loop you like, drag it to a channel, then adjust the length for as many measures as you want it to repeat. Here's something I created on my first visit to the site in a very short time:

Time:

0:00

Volume:

50

0

 Stop   Play   Pause   Vol   Vol   Mute   Repeat   Download

Most of my time at this site was spent learning the software. If I had already been familiar with the software, this would have taken about 5 minutes to create. I think it sounds great, but should I be allowed to post it in the DIY board? Absolutely not! I didn't play a single note on this. A child with no music training could create a song at least as good as this one, given enough time to learn the software. So I think any use of tools like this which substitute pre-recorded or automatically-generated performances for the member's own playing should not be posted in the same board as songs which were actually performed by the member. They're still welcome on the site, but we'll have to find another board for them. I'm not sure which board that should be.

[Saijinn Maas]

64g, was right... I was definitely being as ass. I'll keep my anger in check.

A: None or at least one/some of the noises were made by one or more members (can go in General)
and
B: All of the noises (except drums) must have been made by one or more members (can go in DIY)

I see why the distinction, and it makes sense. I'll actually be free to post whatever I want to wherever I want.

Excellent post Andy. This is was one of the other things that started my frustration initially. I kept asking about this, and I would only get comments about backers. 

My problem with it working the way you put it above, is that most of what is done right now, in the Original and Cover boards will certainly qualify for B (DIY). And since Tributes is going to Covers, Collabs are keeping a board, that leaves Backers and Members who used outsiders to perform and record for the A (General) board.

We only want to keep that work separate from the work of our members.

Why? You have yet to actually answer this question. I think most of us would be interested to hear WHY you think Tangled Wires would not be allowed to post in the same place as Jemima's Kite.

Is ANYONE here willing to say that they would prefer to listen Jemima's Kite over Tangled Wires for the sole reason that Tangled Wires is not an all member band? It is this, that has me the most confused. Why make this "members only" distinction at all?

Comments regarding BiaB... please correct me if I am wrong...

Since it sounds like you are saying that BiaB is similar to using backers, then it is understandable why YOU would NOT want them posting in the same place. But then why are real musician recorded bands like Tangled Wires being treated the same? There is no way anyone can say that actual bands should be classified in the same manner. Is it the same?

I see a community whose primary focus is on making cool original music and original takes for classic covers. It has nothing to due with it being recorded by ONLY members. Am I really just this wrong on this issue?

[T.C. Elliott]

We only want to keep that work separate from the work of our members.

Why? You have yet to actually answer this question. I think most of us would be interested to hear WHY you think Tangled Wires would not be allowed to post in the same place as Jemima's Kite.

I think the prevailing opinion is that one board is not enough. It's an assumption on one hand and a popularly held opinion on the other. I tend to agree.

If we hold that stance then the question becomes how do we separate posts? DIY vs non DIY may be arbitrary but no more than any other division that has been proposed. And possibly better than most.

Is ANYONE here willing to say that they would prefer to listen Jemima's Kite over Tangled Wires for the sole reason that Tangled Wires is not an all member band? It is this, that has me the most confused. Why make this "members only" distinction at all?

Since the decision not to use one board has been made there has to be a division of some sort if we aren't going to use one board. Again, is DIY vs non DIY any better or worse than Originals vs covers vs backers vs lyric only vs whatever?

[Saijinn Maas]

Thanks TC

I do think DIY vs non-DIY is a very different kind of division than Original vs Covers vs Backers etc.

For one thing, it takes a very big majority of members and places them in one group set apart from the other. It tells members that because they do not fit into an ideal, that few of us hold, you will not be allowed to post with the others.

The other type of division is nothing more than standard musical classification by descriptors. It doesn't single anyone out for NOT conforming to the WAY someone does something. It is this that can, and should, be streamlined.

[alfstone]

I'm not very familiar with BiaB so please forgive me (and correct me)...

In the case of BIAB they are fragments of phrases, not loops, but this doesn't matter...

Honestly, since this site is so kind to host my songs, I don't care at all if in the future I will have to upload them in a "General" section and not in a DIY one. You decide the philosophy of Songcrafters, and anyway it's OK for me, no problem...

BUT...

...again and again, could someone please explain me if we are talking about philosophy of a web site, or about legal issues? Am I wrong, or has been someone of the forum staff who raised the legal problems?

By this point of view, I agree 100% with guitarron: if the web site - reasonably - needs to be sure by the legal point of view, well, for the future no covers at all and no pre-recorded backing tracks at all. Even if that means no festivals. And a strong fall of posts.

In other words, dear sessantaquattrochitarre, since the beginning of this thread I keep on having the sensation that we (all) are talking about 2 (two!) very different aspects (...legal/philosophy...), and that the answers we receive from you are mainly concentrated on the philosophy side, while everything remains confused for the legal side.

Apart from that, if you want my opinion about the philosophy of a site called Songcrafters, well, for all the reasons you quoted about BIAB or loops (not played by us), I expect that since for each cover we didn't compose the music nor the lyrics, no cover at all should go on a DIY (Do It Yourself) section.  

In the DIY ONLY originals with everything performed by members.

It's just for a matter of coherence...

Alfredo

[Burtog]

A question I have is;

If there is a worry that Covers and other materials on here may hold a risk of attracting legal proceedings however unlikely, couldn't we just eliminate the ability to allow listeners to 'download' in turn distributing the illegal material. By this I mean you can listen but effectively can't take the music away from this site. If members want to share music they can do it in the background. Would this help?

Apologies if this question is utter crap, it was I thought I had earlier in the day.

[AndyR]

Flip! That clip does sound good, 64G, I had no idea this stuff was possible.

But you posting it has made me realise that I have a completely different attitude to what a song is, and that's where some of my own discomfort was coming from.

That clip you've cooked up is no where near being a song in my mind. It's a nice groove with some cute instrumentation, created with a songwriting/demoing tool. But there is no song there yet for me to get excited about... (if I'd been doing it, I mean)

Now as a songwriter, I'd have no issue at all in using that tool to create song demos. I'd still have to write the song to go with it. The whole point of recording a song demo is to present the song in its best light so that someone else can hear its potential. If a tool like this does it, then it's a very valid tool for a songwriter to use. (Mebbe not for an instrumental composer, I see that... but I am thinking of someone like me, verses and choruses.)

If the songwriter is also trying to demonstrate their performance prowess - eg it's an artiste demo, not a song demo - then obviously this tool is somewhat, er, deceptive at the least!

Now, on the "Songcrafter's direction/philosophy". I think this is where some of us might have been missing the point (eg me). A "songcrafter" to me is a song writer, not a performer.

I therefore wasn't at all keen on the name change to songcrafters, because I felt it might exclude people who aren't wanting to write songs, but who want to make better recordings, get better at their instrument, trade ideas with like-minded folk, etc. I was ok personally though, because I'm primarily a songwriter in my mind, I have no intention of subjecting myself to performing again, but I do like to show off my chops from time to time. The thing is though, everything original I post is to demonstrate a song, first and foremost. I'm also quite proud that I've managed to get proficient enough on various instruments and studio trickery to make it sound like real instruments with decent performers were backing the singer on my demos. But first and foremost it's the song for me, and how, as the songwriter, I think it should be presented.

I now see where I think you (and probably others) are coming from - by "songs", you seem to mean recordings of one performance of what I call the song. I'm afraid I've never regarded a "song" as its recording. But if the consensus is that we are regarding it that way here, then of course, the boards labelled DIY cannot possibly be a home to recordings that have outside performance on them.

I think we need to recognise though that the name "songcrafters", as well as misleading me, has, I believe, attracted some who are also songwriters only, and some cannot perform their own creations to show them off in the best light. A songwriter does not have to be a musician to write good songs. We have other songwriters and composers who can play instruments, but not the ones they need on the demo of the song they've written. And they have access to various methods, including outside musicians, of getting the song down in a listenable state.

If we can make it clear somewhere that DIY has it's restrictions because we regard them as artist demos, but that song demos, lovingly crafted or whatever with whatever it takes, live in General - then most of my concerns disappear in a puff of smoke.

Obviously, someone like me, because of how I create my demos, can post in either as I see fit. As can many other folks on here.



I hope that makes some kind of sense...

Stick with it guys

(And now I better read what others have posted while I was struggling over the above )