Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[guitarron]

whats a beer kitty?

you know what a beer is and don't call me kitty

[Gritter]

[Gnasty]

I`m touching myself right now...Ooops wrong thread!

[AndyR]

That was a fine post 64G - many thanks

Sai - look at it the way I've come to see it (which I believe 64G's post confirmed for me):

These DIY boards where some types of post are necessarily "excluded" are for recordings performed by songcrafter members. It is actually a very good idea and fulfills a purpose for folks who want to be able to go to a board containing contributions that are at the very heart of how they see and use this site. I'm guessing you're like me, and you don't actually see and use the site like this yourself. But, for me anyway, that's OK because I can see there are obviously a sizable number who do. Given that it's a good idea, how do you set the ground rules for these "exclusive" boards so that as many people understand as possible, and as few people as possible feel alienated in any way? It could have been the member posting is performing on it, or some of the parts are members, the majority of parts are members, all parts are members. The only way to do it without possibly incurring huge moderation problems further down the line is "all the parts are by members (with or without their drums machines)" - it's black and white, easy to understand and get across in a header message or whatever.

Now, to the "excluded". First off, like 64G kept trying to say - but they're not excluded!! They can post in General. My main concern was a member who composed the song, directed, engineered and mixed the recording on home studio kit, but who did not play any of the parts. He or she is still very much a "songcrafter" in my mind, and I felt bad for him/her. The minute I understood that the DIY boards are about performance contributions, not specifically about the compositions themselves, and that a member can post song demos in General (with no restriction other than the ones already in force - that you ought to have been involved in some way, and that you musn't have nicked it!!), then I became a happy bunny.

I have to admit, I see no reason to post my stuff in the DIY boards myself, I'd rather get all mine in one place in General. But, I am free to do this if I want! (This could well change when 64G unveils his song database facililty - really looking forward to that.)

Now that I've understood what the game plan is, I can see it's a reasonable solution all round. The folks into finding member performed material easily win, I appear to win, the admin job should be easier, and the folks who I thought might feel excluded will hopefully not feel that way if the site explains it well enough to them.

I do hope that helps you Sai - and others who I think were feeling the same stuff as me in this thread - but we're all different, so mebbe it won't!


BUT I have to agree with you on the apparently idiotic contributions in this thread. I do understand why many of them might be doing it. In most cases, I suspect they think that the issue is a non-issue and that it needs no further discussion. If this is the case, it shows a complete lack of feeling and understanding that other individuals must have very valid concerns that need addressing. 64G has valiantly tried to address these throughout the thread. But he has not been helped by such contributions in the slightest, and it saddened me a bit. In fact, a lot... I only entered the fray at the weekend BECAUSE I could see the concerns people were expressing but I could also see that some people who were satisifed were now posting off-topic comments that, whether intended or not, gave one message only to the people with concerns - "Aw shutup you w@nkers". It has not helped shorten the discussion one little bit.

[Saijinn Maas]

It's all good Andy.

It's become fairly obvious that they don't care what I have to say.

I'll just shut up now.

[IanR]

Now, to the "excluded". First off, like 64G kept trying to say - but they're not excluded!! They can post in General. My main concern was a member who composed the song, directed, engineered and mixed the recording on home studio kit, but who did not play any of the parts. He or she is still very much a "songcrafter" in my mind,

It seems to me that if the balance of contribution belongs to the member or members of the forum then the contribution should be included in the songcrafter members contribution page - I don't like the 100% member rule.  If the balance of contribution is majority non-member with a little bit of member contribution then its on another page.  If there is no member contribution it should be on the general discussion page where those posts already are. 

I think this has already been said and said again.  When does this thread close down??

Ian

[Kenny B]

Here's some comments from a fairly new member ... for what it's worth.
I've tried to read though this thread but there is more in it than I've read in
the 6 months I've been here ...  ... so forgive me as I ramble.

I've been writing this for three days and trying to organize my thoughts.
64 ... your last post summed up a lot of what I thought  you were thinking
and I see and agree with you and the board's focus.

I spend many years wishing I had musicians to "Collaborate" with
while recording some ideas which all became my precious yet boring
to others songs/instrumentals.  Most musicians I knew or came in contact
with had very little ambition to create new music and also had very little
positive feedback on all my ideas.  I've seen the sights where everyone
is posting and/or selling their music, but what I see mostly is people
competing to make it, etc ... which is fine ... I've been there.

When I came across SongCrafters about six months ago I clicked
on "Collaborations" and found something which just seemed a little
bit too good to be true!  Between that and "Original Songs" I was
completely blown away ... but not by the incredible talent and
incredible songs I was hearing FOR FREE! ... But by the interaction
and diversity of the music and its MEMBERS ... and especially by the
unfinished material being passed around so freely.   I've never done
this!   Most musicians I worked with for most of my life would rarely
let someone listen to something they were working on nevertheless
share it.

SongCrafters is an incredible place to be.   It is also an incredibly
well run and maintained sight ...  ( Who's the tech guy(s) ).

My Ignorant Opinions:

I think the 5 boards are good for the most part.

Keep it simple ... I don't like "DIY" ... Original Songs and Cover Songs
are major topics.

I like finding all the Original Songs on 1 board ... maybe there should just be
a better clarification of what/who's on each song ... a better way to differentiate
without having to go to different boards ... "Colors"?

I've been fooled several times by what was played and what was
programmed/copied/etc ... but that's life.

"Collaborations" drew me in ... How about something like "Collaborations / Works In Progress"
for anything that's not complete, being worked on, or is fair game?.

This sight has been the best musical thing that has ever happened to me ...

Please don't send me and my old beat up outdated Zoom recorder packing ... 

That will ruin my day.

Kenny B.

[Bluesberry]

When I came across SongCrafters about six months ago I clicked on "Collaborations" and found something which just seemed a little bit too good to be true!  Between that and "Original Songs" I was completely blown away ... but not by the incredible talent and incredible songs I was hearing FOR FREE! ... But by the interaction and diversity of the music and its MEMBERS ... and especially by the unfinished material being passed around so freely.   I've never done this!   Most musicians I worked with for most of my life would rarely let someone listen to something they were working on nevertheless share it.

SongCrafters is an incredible place to be. 

This sight has been the best musical thing that has ever happened to me ...

these words right here from one of our newer members (who happens to be one hell of a bass player) sums up my thoughts about this place.  This is getting to the heart of what this site is all about for me, what this site represents to me.  This is the kind of thing that needs to be promoted even further IMO, to make this site even more special.  But that is just my opinion, and I guess Kenny B's too, and I agree with him.

[Kenny B]

The membership aspect is the heart and soul of SongCrafters.

This has really grown on me in a relatively short time.  You guys have
built an  incredible thing here.  I am a very skeptical person and wasn't
sure if I would be welcomed at first.  Clubs can be a tough thing to
join ... but I sensed there was something different happening here.
It wasn't a crazy free for all ...  and I realize that is what you are trying
to avoid.

I have complete respect for everyone and everything on this sight.
But I wouldn't want to post on a different board if I got a non-member
drummer friend to play on a tune.

Just an idea from a burned out old programmer ...

How about a selection when posting specifying your combinations ...

All members,  real instruments, members + guests, etc, etc ... these
can be seen in different colors or with set captions or something so
people can differentiate when browsing through ...

We all know we look for specific things and people to listen to and
comment on.

I really think segregating on different boards will upset a lot of people ... I may have
not joined if I saw too many club rules.  I'd hate to have missed that
post ORH had put up with that friend with the old Zoom recorder ...

[Saijinn Maas]

I wish a lot of regulars weren't so obviously trying to avoid being a part of this discussion. No matter which side they fall on, I think it would go a long way to better clarify whether or not it really is the majority who would prefer that the member only content be separated from the non-member only content.

As much as I enjoy "hearing" Dave's sexy "voice" reiterate what this site means to him... over and over... I am fairly certain he is tired of "hearing" me trying to find different ways to restate my point... over and over...



In the interest of moving the discussion along... If we do separate by member vs non-member, does that mean we need the same set of boards for both?
Post Your Work
     General Originals
     General Covers
     Member Originals
     Member Covers

Maybe Collabs can be a part of the Songwriting category? After all, they are unfinished parts looking for people to finish other parts and can be seen as in the process of being "written"...  As 64g stated, it is not intended to actually post the finish product here, so the finished product would obviously fall under being an Original or Cover, would it not?

Not exactly "streamlining" though.