Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[Blooby]

Just wanted to take the time to say that I/we truly appreciate all the work you good folks put into the site. Whatever direction the site heads in, I know it will be well considered.

Peace.

Blooby

[henwrench]

I think the question of performance (did you/didn't you) is more to address the point of why a song is posted in our community.

  I could go and ask Uncle Bob, Aunt Fanny, Granny Alan and Grandpa Eva to all record some stuff and then post it as my own, 'cos I asked 'em to do it. In the future, that would be seen as a Bad Thing.
  Or I could ask Uncle Bob et al to record some stuff and I could add my vocals and a lead guitar. In the future, that would be seen as a Good Thing.

      D'ya get me, shags?

                                                           henwrench

[Burtog]

I still consider myself new to this site but intend on getting more songs posted in the near future, I can see how reorganization of the site would be beneficial but I'm not sure the word 'General' is best as it suggests it is the normal or main body of the board, it is afterall a sort of 'everything else allowed' board.

I think 'work in progress' is a good idea.

I also think that the Original and Cover should be seperate and not under the DIY heading. I guess these 2 elements are the main inputs into the site?

[The Gobi Desert Canoe Club]

I personally think it's great to have a couple of the boards unified mostly because there are places that I rarely find time to visit on the site. This means that I spend most of the time available listening to original material and missing out on so much more good music that has been posted elsewhere. I'm just happy to be able to post my music for revue/critique so will endeavour to stay within whatever boundries you deem fit to use. Regards Willie W

[64Guitars]

The only thing I would hope remains constant is some sort of tag that is labeled "Collaboration". I think it would be a bad idea to discard our shining beacon of invitation. True, there is not always a healthy amount of activity visibly, but behind the scenes it works wonders. "Work In Progress" is an entirely different animal.

The idea of collaborations is an important part of Songcrafters and we certainly want that to continue. However, I think that calling the board "Collaborations" might suggest to some people that they have to post their finished songs there if they've collaborated with other members. That, of course, is not true and never has been. The Collaborations board was always meant for unfinished songs that you want other members to add to. Once the song is complete, it should be posted in Original Songs, Cover Songs, or General. That's why I prefer the name Work in Progress. It makes it clear that finished collaborations don't belong there. It also seems a more suitable name if it's to include lyrics and early mixes of songs as I've suggested. These aren't really collaborations but they are works in progress.

I would certainly like to encourage collaborations any way I can though. I could mention collaborations in the board's description on the forum home page. And perhaps I could post a more detailed description in the board and make it a sticky topic so that new members are more likely to see it.

[FuzzFace]

I do not disagree with your proposed structure or philosophy.

But I have to ask "What if we just left it as is?"

Is there something that is not working well or otherwise interfering with the functioning of the site?

Will re-organizing improve our Songcrafters experience?

[64Guitars]

It feels like this direction has more or less happened organically anyway, so it seems sensible to make it more 'official' with the changes suggested.

Exactly. That's why I used the word "minor" in the subject. This is just a slight refinement on what we already have. Hopefully, it will give new members and visitors a better idea of what Songcrafters is all about. The only real difference is that it allows us to reserve Original Songs and Cover Songs for purely member-performed recordings. We haven't always been able to do that in the past because there was no suitable board to move the exceptions to. But the General board will solve that problem.

There's a little grey area that's probably worth mentioning though:

On the DIY / Covers board, I'd like us to still be able to post an updated track to our threads. Although this activity could be seen as falling under 'work in progress', it doesn't always begin that way. For example: I post a song like 'Bad Chemicals' that I think is complete. But then Covermark comes along and adds some kick-ass guitar licks that make the track even better. So I'd like to still have a facility to add these 'suprise' enhancements on the same thread.

Definitely! The problem I was hoping to solve is the multiple mixes of a song that sometimes get posted when it's known ahead of time that the song isn't finished. For example, a certain Scotsman whom we all know and love has been known to get excited about a new JK song and post it with a comment like "Mike hasn't added the bass yet but I couldn't wait". That's fine, but since he knows that the song isn't finished yet, I think it should be posted in the Work in Progress board. Then, after Mike adds the bass and everyone's happy with the final mix, it can be posted in Original Songs.

One of the big problems with multiple posts of a song is that they all get included in the Latest Songs and On This Day jukeboxes as well as the member's personal jukebox. I'd like to avoid all that repetition of song titles in the jukeboxes. If members post their "pre-release" mixes in Work in Progress, I can exclude that board from the jukeboxes so that only the final mix in Originals, Covers, or General gets included in the jukeboxes.

I've been working on an even better solution to that problem but I don't know when it will be finished. When it is, you'll be able to add details about your songs such as title, writer, performers, recorder, and recording date. These details will be stored in a song database. It will also include a link to the song if it's stored offsite. All of the jukeboxes will then use the song database instead of the attachments folder. That way, the song details can be automatically displayed with the player, and it will include all song posts whether they're attached or stored offsite. But you'll only be able to enter/edit the song details in the first message of your topic. You'll still be able to post alternate mixes later in the topic but they won't be included in the jukeboxes unless you edit your first message and enter the URL of the mix that you prefer. So the jukeboxes will only include one version of each song. Which version they include will be entirely up to the poster since they can edit the first message of their topic at any time and change the URL to point to a different version of the song.

We also need to agree on allowing a little bit of Audacity-type sound fx on the DIY boards. Strictly speaking, it's not member-performed, but it's often a reasonable inclusion in producing a finished song.

Thanks for reminding me. This is something that came up in our admin discussions and I had meant to mention it here but I forgot.

I think there are two types of samples we need to consider. There's the sound effects like rain, thunder, howling wind, dogs barking, etc. These are not musical performances so it doesn't matter that the member didn't create them himself. So any effects samples like that can definitely be included in songs posted in the DIY boards. But the other type of sample is the 'loop' sample which is usually of a short musical phrase played on an instrument or sung. These samples will not be allowed in the DIY boards because they consist of musical performances by someone other than the member. Songs that include samples of this type should be posted in the General board instead.

[Bluesberry]

I am in favour of this refinement 64G.  It apeals to me.

[Saijinn Maas]

I agree with condensing some of the boards into a more streamlined structure. However, I have a few comments.

What real reason is there to separate Originals from Covers? If they are recorded and performed, then they should just be allowed to be posted in the same place. This is similar to the way Tony has it on his site. Who realistically says to themselves, "I only wanna listen to originals today" or "Today is a good day to listen to some covers"? When I have time to listen to stuff, I see MUSIC posted not covers or originals or any other trivial distinction. I usually see "Oh cool, Henny's got a new song up!" or "Awesome, Greeny got something new up!" Whether it is a cover or an original is irrelevant. It's about the members and what they've worked on. Otherwise it just segregation. The "cool kids" here and the "not so cool kids" here. Just something to think about and discuss.

Meaning no offense to anyone... But I do think that making the Originals and Covers for "Member Performed Only" is quite frankly pretentious and a tad "Big Brother". Now I can't post stuff I've worked on with other musicians unless they are members here?

I believe "Backing Track Jams" is in the same boat here. If it is a "Challenge" type of thing, each take that a member does, is essentially a different song with a different feel and different interpretation of what the song may means or conveys. As far as non-challenge use. How can we seclude members who only play one instrument? Though I would hope members get comfortable enough to collab with other members, we cannot force them to work with others. Otherwise we are just relegating them to a section of the forum we all know isn't as popular. It make many of them feel left out.

Perhaps some new Message Icons:
OG = Original
CV = Covers
BT = Backing Track

Perhaps Challenges can have it's own board. It used to be pretty popular here until the boards were changed to relegate those to the ether.

As for Collaborations. I too believe it is an important part of this community. However, "Work In Progress" just doesn't sound right. I think it is too vague. It sounds like a place you would post to get feedback on something you are currently working on, not where you would go to find collabs. I would like to suggest something like "Help Wanted". It's short and clear and obvious that you wouldn't post the final result in this location.

So in the end the structure would look like this:

General Discussion
         General Discussion
         Just For Laughs
         Introduce Yourself not really necessary

Post Your Work
         Songs
         Help Wanted
         Gunslingers (Challenges)
         Cover Songs added to Songs
         Tributes added to Songs
         Collaborations becomes Help Wanted
         Backing Track Jam added to Songs
         Lyrics rarely used and can go under songwriting

Songwriting
         General
         Lyric Advice no reason this can't be under General

Instruments
         Guitar & Bass
         Other
         Vocals judging by lack of posts, unnecessary
         Other Instruments combined with Vocals into just "Other"

Home Recording
         Multitrack Recorders
         Other
         General now Other
         DAW & Music Software combined into "Other"

Just something for discussion... Not meaning to sound like anything is an issue. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for the great job everyone is doing here. 

[64Guitars]

Do you still intend a Boss focus

That's a good question. I haven't discussed it with the admin team yet but it's something that I've been thinking about a lot. I think I'd like to make the site more Boss-specific like it used to be. No offense to users of other brands or DAWs. They'll always be welcome here, but most of our members are Boss users and I think I'd prefer to promote Songcrafters as a Boss users site rather than a general home recording and songwriting site. But that's something I'll have to discuss further with the admin team. If anyone has any strong feelings about this subject, please mention them now so that the admin team can take your views into consideration when we discuss it.

that would warrant tagging of boss/non boss recorded stuff ?

As I mentioned in another message, I'm working on a song database idea that will include a field for recorder. So that will take care of the brand tagging. Members will be able to specify the exact recorder they used, whether it's a Boss, some other brand, or a software DAW.

Is there anything more that can (or should) be done to protect the site owners from copyright infrigment issues caused by board members rather than rely on the member to ensure legality of what is posted ?
It isn't my area of law but I can do some looking to see if there is anything we can do to reduce the risk.

Thanks. That would be appreciated. I've noticed that most sites post a notice saying that they're not responsible for what gets posted on their site. But I'm skeptical that that's enough. I suspect that the site's owner and administrators could be held responsible regardless of any such notices they've posted. That's what worries me about backing tracks, etc. Most people download them and use them without any regard for where they came from and what rights, if any, they have in using them.