Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[64Guitars]

I'm not sure calling someone's effort noodling or karaoke is helping matters, though.

I was referring specifically to Andrew's comment about "somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track". In my humble opinion, that's guitar karaoke. But I didn't mean to imply that all backing track usage is guitar karaoke. I'm sure that some people put a great deal of time and effort into their recordings that use backing tracks and I didn't mean to imply that such recordings are also guitar karaoke. My comment was only about the 10-minute noodle which involves very little time and effort and shouldn't be taken very seriously. Sorry for not making that clear in my original comment.

Sorry for posting this after I just said that posts about backing tracks must stop, but I felt that it was important to clarify my earlier statement so that it doesn't unintentionally offend people who put a lot of time and effort into recording with backing tracks.

[thetworegs]

Long live collaborations, that's what this site is about!

long live songcrafters..........in whatever configuration the Admin team chooses.............we will all still be here collabing with each other in a mad frenzy of musical mayhem.............

Amen to that. 

Amen to that Brother......And now the Lords Prayer........Right what now?.........now...... does anyone want to collaborate on something....i can sing......do a bit of noodling.......talk i'm quite good at talking i learn't how to do it at an early stage...whistle ......anyone?

[64Guitars]

How hard would it be, on the Forum drop down menu, to add a master list? Ie where it says post your work, to just click that and have all the topics listed in one master forum? Is that still a database issue?

Sort of an alternate view of the Post Your Work forums which treats the category as one big board? There's nothing in the existing software that allows for that but I could probably create something like that, though it would take some time. I'm not sure how far it would go toward improving the exposure of the less popular boards but it might help a bit. And some people might prefer to view the song posts that way so it would be good to give them the option. I'll definitely think about it. Thanks for the suggestion.

And is it possible to increase the number of posts displayed per page? I know on Amazon etc they have options you can click.

That ones easy. It's just a simple setting in the board's software which I've already changed a couple of times. I think it was originally 15 posts per page and I bumped it up to 25 or 30, then to 40. I can change it to any number we like. But I think we have to be careful not to make it too big. Personally, I find smaller pages easier to navigate because I don't have to scroll as much. But bigger pages mean that posts stay on page one longer, which is why I've increased it in the past. I'm happy to increase it further if enough people think that's a good idea. Shall we try 50? Or more? Or do some people already find it too long at 40?

[Saijinn Maas]

This topic is about the proposed minor reorganisation of the Post Your Work boards and the philosophy/direction/focus of Songcrafters. We welcome further ideas on that topic, but it's time to put a stop to any further discussion of the merits of backing tracks here. It's not relevant to this topic.

Sai: You're obviously very angry with me. I don't know what I've said that upset you but I'm sorry if you feel offended. I mean no disrespect to you or any other member of Songcrafters. I suggest that you take a week or two to calm down, then if you still feel the need to champion the use of backing tracks, start a new topic on that subject. Please don't post any further comments here in this topic based on your enthusiam for backing tracks. It's not helping and it's derailing the topic we're trying to discuss here.

Everyone: No more discussion of the merits of backing tracks here. If you must discuss it, do so in a new topic.

Thank you.

I am actually quite calm right now. Not sure why you are still mentioning the "championing of backing tracks" though. I thought that specific part of the discussion was over in my talk with Dave. I haven't even mentioned backing tracks, except to maybe reference the board, in my last few posts. I could be wrong though.

I am bit dumbfounded that you are confused about why I am angry though, since I've stated why rather clearly in the last few posts I've made. Even TC Elliot made mention that your continued habit of calling member efforts karaoke and practice sessions was not helping. Ah, which you've just commented on.



So... not mentioning BTs, and staying on the topic of "the philosophy/direction/focus of songcrafters"... Hmm...

Well, 64g, my opinion is that changing the focus to member only original solos and collabs is not in the best interest of this board. General Originals and Collabs, and even complete Covers, definitely. But why the member only focus? I am confused about this? Is it really the majority of the members that want a members only focus?

[Tony W]

I was referring specifically to Andrew's comment about "somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track". In my humble opinion, that's guitar karaoke. But I didn't mean to imply that all backing track usage is guitar karaoke. I'm sure that some people put a great deal of time and effort into their recordings that use backing tracks and I didn't mean to imply that such recordings are also guitar karaoke. My comment was only about the 10-minute noodle which involves very little time and effort and shouldn't be taken very seriously. Sorry for not making that clear in my original comment.

Quite honestly I was infuriated. I for one spent weeks at a time, several hours a day learning to play a solo, and to have it referred to as a 10 minute noodle put me in full combat mode.

I appreciate that you revisited the comment to clarify, Thank you.

If you want to end the conversation regarding backing tracks, perhaps it's time to end this thread in its entirety. Any good that could be gleaned from this thread has already happened. Eliminating discussion on a point which still has validity, yet not ending the rest of the discussion shows not only preferential treatment, but a level of disdain towards select members.

I vote for the lock.

[AndyR]

I must admit, I feel no need for a "members only on recordings" focus. As I understand it, the proposals wouldn't make the site itself "members only", just certain boards. But I still feel a little uncomfortable about the idea of boards where certain active members cannot post their latest masterpiece because it doesn't qualify in some way (for example, the girlfriend's mates got together to do the backing vocals because the member can't do female vocals because he's a bloke).

I'm sure there must be a valid reason for trying out this idea, and it won't stop me, but I do feel uncomfortable about folks not being able to use guest musicians to realise their vision.

Another example is a songwriter that can't perform well enough to do a demo that does justice to his or her material. All the literature about songwriting says "get the best you can on your demo". So a songwriter with recording/arranging ability gets his/her song together, is a member of songcrafters, but has to post to the general category.

OK, it's still posted, but the general vibe I'm getting on here is that the DIY boards will be "it". I think I can see and feel some of what Sai is seeing and feeling - I'm getting an impression of an elitist section that we can all post in if we qualify. Some never will qualify, but they're actually better than I am at what we do - first songcrafting, and then recording those songs. I qualify purely because I have the extra talents of playing multiple instruments and being able to sing to my (and many other people's) satisfaction.


The other thing that's worried me in this thread is various people arguing that collaboration is what songcrafter's is all about. The way the posts are going, it makes me feel, umm... strange. Collaboration is most definitely NOT what songcrafters is about for me. If one had to collaborate to be here, I would not be a member. Unless I'm completely on my own here, I think we, as a bunch, need to acknowledge that collaboration is what drives some, and not what drives others.

[T.C. Elliott]

I'm happy to increase it further if enough people think that's a good idea. Shall we try 50? Or more? Or do some people already find it too long at 40?

Second question. Is it possible to set it up so that each user can have a custom views per page? I just took a look and I think the 40 is working pretty well... 50 might be the outer limit, though. Dunnae. It's actually more per page than I thought. And I've liked it recently.. or at least not noticed it being bad or too short of a page.

okay this issue might not matter as much. Thanks for the response.

[Tony W]

And Andy proved me wrong about the good being gleaned..... Great post, and it reflects exactly what I am seeing as well.

[64Guitars]

I must admit, I feel no need for a "members only on recordings" focus. As I understand it, the proposals wouldn't make the site itself "members only", just certain boards. But I still feel a little uncomfortable about the idea of boards where certain active members cannot post their latest masterpiece because it doesn't qualify in some way (for example, the girlfriend's mates got together to do the backing vocals because the member can't do female vocals because he's a bloke).

This idea that people "cannot post their latest masterpiece because it doesn't qualify" keeps coming up and I keep trying to assure everyone that it's simply not true. Everything that qualifies for posting at Songcrafters now will continue to qualify after the changes. It's only a question of which board it will be posted in. A lot of members seem to be under the impression that they have some sort of right to post all of their songs in the most popular board, whichever it might be, but at the same time they want to be able to ignore other people's posts in a board which they're less interested in. Sorry, but that's not possible, nor is it fair.

(Note: On re-reading your comment, I realised that you were objecting to posts not qualifying in certain boards rather than the whole site. Sorry for my mistake but I didn't want to change my comments above because I think they make some important points. As for posts not qualifying for certain boards, that will be true no matter what criteria we use to divide the boards. It would be pointless to have multiple boards but allow members to post in any board they like. Posts have to meet certain qualifications in any board. It's not a judgement on the value of the post. It's just a classification to allow people to choose the posts which interest them most.)

I do feel uncomfortable about folks not being able to use guest musicians to realise their vision.

But folks can use guest musicians to realise their vision. It's only a question of which board those posts will go in. We have no intention of preventing or discouraging members from working with non-members. We only want to keep that work separate from the work of our members.

I'm getting an impression of an elitist section that we can all post in if we qualify. Some never will qualify, but they're actually better than I am at what we do - first songcrafting, and then recording those songs. I qualify purely because I have the extra talents of playing multiple instruments and being able to sing to my (and many other people's) satisfaction.

Any division of the Post Your Work category into separate boards runs the risk of being called elitist or unfair to those who post in the less popular boards. Does it really matter how we divide it? Isn't it enough just to have a place where your posts are welcome and appreciated? Are musicians so egotistical that they can't bear the thought of another musician's song getting more listens? Personally, I don't care which board my posts go in. Up until now, I think everything I've done has been either just me or a collaboration with other members. But that could change. If I was lucky enough to join a local band, I'd be happy to post our songs in the Bands board. Or if I met another musician with similar interests who didn't want to become a member of Songcrafters, I'd be happy to post our collaborations in whatever board we decide on for those, regardless of its popularity. As long as I got 2 or 3 comments to assure me that my post wasn't a complete waste of time, I'd be happy. Sure, comments make me feel good. But it's not a competition where the member with the most comments wins. And I have no need to have my ego stroked with 4 pages of comments.

And we don't consider DIY music to be better than other music. We just enjoy it more. It's where our personal interests lie. And, based on discussions on this site over the last few years, we believe that most of our members share that interest. Isn't it the right of the owner of this site and the rest of the administration team to define the focus of the site according to our own interests, especially when we're trying very hard to make sure we don't exclude people with different interests? I think that most people will be pleased with the changes once they get used to them. For the few who are not, we'll happily refund your money. Hell, we'll give you double your money back! And as punishment for our selfish desire to slightly alter the site according to our own interests, we'll take a pay cut. Since this is mostly my fault, I should be punished the most severely, so cut my pay in half!  

[guitarron]

When i made my politically correct and flippant response to this thread back back on page 6, i was little a hung over and running behind in the A.M. Now, here on Sunday after giving the time to read this thread more carefully, I, a man of few words, feel necessary to blather on a bit.

First, like in any healthy relationship, a little argument is healthy- and by all accounts this is truly a very robust group at this site.

So many great points were made, whether on topic or not.

What i have distilled from this memo is, admin (the collective) wants to cover their ass from copyright infringement. That's completely reasonable. That should be the foremost consideration. My ass wont be in as much trouble for posting the remake of "Purple Rain" as the site owner would be- i guess. So this is truly a valid concern for admin.

Early on after being on this site a while I started seeing members posting solos over bt's , and I must admit,i didn't care for those posts. Yes okay maybe it was snobbery on my part, I'll own that. Maybe because I've always built my own stuff from the ground up.

A couple years back, I listened to Sai's work and some others as well,and was impressed not only their respective talents, but also with usefulness of bt's. In fact i participated in a challenge i think it was called shine and OHR added his mojo as well.(remember the serial shagger thing )

I guess what I'm trying to say is,these are fun and very beneficial, I use a slew of them in my mbr when i play at gatherings just for yucks. But with the focus of this site being "songcrafting" and the possible legal ramifications of bt's, maybe it's time we stop the bt's all together.

Wait, don't flame me just yet, i have a great amount of respect for members that love the bt's- but in the spirit of covering admin's ass-maybe it's time.

As far as member only recordings, i feel that at least one member need be in a band recording or collab. I don't see a necessity to distinguish recordings that are made entirely by members and recordings that have only partial membership.

Nigel made a lot great points as well, It is overwhelming how many posts there are. I find myself hearing stuff for the first time simply because a thread was bumped and caught my eye the 2nd time around. And commenting on everything is difficult to do. Hall of shame member here i guess.
Likewise, i find myself lurking more than i care to admit.

 I too found this site when i was looking for more technical info on the boss recorders. This site has evolved into what it is currently- a songwriting site.

I applaud admin for trying to appease all the members here. You won't be able to make everyone happy I'm afraid.

I'm sorry for pissing off anyone here- this site has been one the most intelligently behaved sites I've ever had the pleasure to be a part of.

Loops?-as long as the loops you use in a recording are royalty free, it shouldn't matter if they're drum, bass, special effect-whatever-they need just be legal.and that is the responsibility of the songwriter.

Enough blathering rambles for now

I truly hope those who are offended by this post understand the spirit in which i submit this.

Respectfully
Ron