Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[Saijinn Maas]

^ Thanks for your post cuthbert.

The only reason this wasn't clear originally, is that there was previous admittance to the fact that collabs have been pretty inactive. Using the same criteria that has been pushed back to me, if the distinct goal of "most" of the members here, was to produce music only with other members, the collab section would be the MOST active. Given that it is not, it is safe to assume that that is NOT the primary focus of "most of the members" here as we are being led to believe.

[T.C. Elliott]

I'm less concerned about the covers issue. It's clear that we are not aiming to make profit from the posting of covers here and they are the work of the individuals concerned. There is a issue about copyright and the use of others words and music, but it's not the same as lifting an MP3 from a backers or a samples website and playing it verbatim back out again. Fine for personal use, but not fine for re-publishing.

What ever happens, if we are asked to take a track down, we will have to do it. I would prefer to have the attackable surface of the site as small as possible. I don't want to have to close the site because we were careless.

Mind you, if Sony heard Geir's Beatles, I think they would whisk him into a studio and then tell us to take them down.

By backers do we mean original recordings with the vox or guitar eq'd out, or someone taking a song written by someone else and making a new musical track without guitar and/or vox or are we talking about original songs written and recorded by someone as a backing track but then being used and posted without permission or all the above?

In the U.S. you run the same risk for all three of those examples as well as a cover. It's not more or less dangerous for any of the four. It all comes down to someone owning a copyright becoming aware of it's unlawful use and then caring enough to want it to stop.  I would think the danger is much higher from covers because there are a lot of people out there who actively look for illegal covers. Prince is notoriously strict about illegal covers. Many labels are as well, but with all the sites and postings on the internet it's hard for them to keep up on it.

Most of the backers I've used (and it's been a looooooooong time since I've used them) were created from scratch by someone and posted for others to use. Sometimes it was obviously a known song (many blues songs for example) and many were originals. I've even posted one or two original songs sans vox/guitar for others to use. A friend of mine uses those original backers and then writes lyric/vox and then posts it as a new song (with permission of the original posters) and that's not dissimilar to what a certain person of high esteem and regard  does on a regular basis here at this site.

[64Guitars]

Excellent post, Nigel! I agree with everything you said and I have the same problems with commenting.

I'm not sure about this one point in your last paragraph though:

I would like to keep this community broad rather than narrow

I agree that we should keep it sufficiently broad that we don't unnecessarily exclude people. But I think we have to be careful not to make it so broad that the site loses its focus and identity. If we try to be all things to all people, we end up diluting some of the best things about our community and losing our identity.

Every site needs a focus to be successful. To say our focus is anything to do with music would be far too broad. There are lots of music sites on the web. We need a narrower focus to distinguish ours and give it a unique identity. I think our focus should be on multitrack recordings created entirely by our members, and on Boss recorders. That's not to say that we shouldn't allow anything else. But we should be able to separate posts that are outside the focus of the site.

You're absolutely right that Songcrafters is a victim of its own success and it's impossible for most members to listen to every post and comment on it. So we need a way to quickly identify posts so that we can view the ones that we're most interested in. The easiest way to accomplish that is with separate boards for different types of posts. But, as you said, some boards are going to get more attention than others and that will cause some people to feel ignored. That's unfortunate but unavoidable if we're to have separate boards.

It seems to me that some people want to have multiple boards so that they can make the best use of their time when viewing posts and listening to songs. But when they post, they only want to have one board. Or, to look at it another way, they want to have lots of boards to save time when viewing/listening, but they want the boards to be chosen in such a way that all of their posts will always be in the most popular board. Well, sorry folks, you can't have it both ways. Either we have lots of boards so that we can make better use of our viewing/listening time, or we have one board so that everyone gets equal exposure and we miss out on a lot of great posts because we didn't have time for them.

If we're to have multiple boards (and I think we must), then it's reasonable that one of those boards is dedicated to the primary focus of the site - multitrack recordings made entirely by our members. If that means that other posts get a bit less exposure, I'm sorry but it's unavoidable. If we give the same exposure to all posts, even if they're outside the focus of the site, then the site really doesn't have a focus.

[T.C. Elliott]

Every site needs a focus to be successful.

But that focus could simply be by the attention the admin staff and members give certain subjects or items. I guess my point is that the structure of the site doesn't necessarily need to dictate what the focus is to have focus. (Although I admit it is possible to lose focus without it.) I definitely think as long as you are here 64, it'll be a hotbed of Boss knowledge. As long as the long timers stick around the focus of being a supportive community for home recording and song writing will both continue. We don't need the board structure to ensure it, at least at this time.

And I find it is often helpful to define success. What is success to you?

t.c.

p.s. I'm still not opposed to the changes suggested. But I do find this discussion fascinating. Even more because of what I can take away from this discussion and relate it to other areas I'm interested in.

[Ferryman]

I'm not sure about this one point in your last paragraph though:

I would like to keep this community broad rather than narrow

I agree that we should keep it sufficiently broad that we don't unnecessarily exclude people. But I think we have to be careful not to make it so broad that the site loses its focus and identity. If we try to be all things to all people, we end up diluting some of the best things about our community and losing our identity.

Every site needs a focus to be successful. To say our focus is anything to do with music would be far too broad. There are lots of music sites on the web. We need a narrower focus to distinguish ours and give it a unique identity. I think our focus should be on multitrack recordings created entirely by our members, and on Boss recorders. That's not to say that we shouldn't allow anything else. But we should be able to separate posts that are outside the focus of the site.

I meant we should try to be inclusive even though there is a natural "bias" towards original songwriting, especially when you consider where we have come from. As Sai said earlier, we could just say this is an "originals" site only and be done with it. That will lose us some members and although selfishly I could say that wouldn't bother me, I think it would damage the overall community because we would lose some talented musicians who are part of the community but don't focus on originals.

Part of the issue is that a while back we expanded the focus to "Songcrafters" ie more than Boss recorders so we have made the challenge worse because at least previously we all had the Boss recorders in common. And if we rein it back to just Boss we would lose folks like Paul and Nick who don't really use the Boss recorders as their primary recording source (and I've really enjoyed all the False prophets work and ourageous 70s fashions).

So I guess my position is that I'm suggesting don't try to use the reorg to create more of a focus for the site. Use it to address legitimate issues (like the use of loops or the closure/merging of inactive boards) and then let the community try to find its own level. If folks are feeling that the site isn't giving them what they need they will move on of their own accord.

You make a great point about multiple boards. We want it easier to find new stuff but of course we would all prefer if our own stuff was on page 1 of the biggest, most frequented board whether its a backer jam, cover, original song, collab whatever. I know I am guilty of that - it's part of the huge pleasure of being on this site. I feel so proud when a piece of my work gets lots of comments and stays on the first two pages, and you just want that feeling to last as long as possible!

I guess I'm just a bit worried that we are kind of saying to some people they should move on. I also feel that we created the problem by expanding the focus when we became "Songcrafters". So I see two options - evolution towards a clearer focus by natural selection, or we come out and say, like you did, the focus "should be on multitrack recordings created entirely by our members, and on Boss recorders". But if that's the case, the name Songcrafters probably is too wide.

Let me give the board structure some thought and I'll post some detailed thoughts.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Geir]

One thing puzzles me.

The suggested changes looks to me to be benefitial to those who like doing backers. They will now be posting in a much more active board. Yet this seems to be the issue that gets the most heat !!!

Am I missing something here

Also on the subject of backers, I would like to challenge every regular poster here to make some backers! With the talent and the gear we have at our disposal we could make some killer backers that then would dismiss all legal issues and make it much more fun, and maybe spawn some new collabs as well !!!

[64Guitars]

One thing puzzles me.

The suggested changes looks to me to be benefitial to those who like doing backers. They will now be posting in a much more active board. Yet this seems to be the issue that gets the most heat !!!

Am I missing something here

That puzzles me too.

Also on the subject of backers, I would like to challenge every regular poster here to make some backers! With the talent and the gear we have at our disposal we could make some killer backers that then would dismiss all legal issues and make it much more fun, and maybe spawn some new collabs as well !!!

I suggested this once before. I think it's a great idea and it would eliminate our legal worries if we restricted the use of backers to only those created by our members. We could build up a library of member-recorded backers so that people would have a good selection to choose from. And, since they'd be entirely member-performed, they could be posted in the DIY group where they'd get plenty of exposure and comments. But I got a lot of opposition when I proposed that idea. I forget what the objections were, but I gave up on the idea because it didn't seem like anyone else liked it.

[Pine]

Well, from this member who has been along for the the ride from the Yahoo Boss group to BossBR to the present Songcrafters (did i miss one?)..i find this thread facinating. Many good points being made. I especially identified with a piece of Nigel's post:

All of that brings me to where I am today. I have become a bit of a background member because I feel overwhelmed by the number of new posts. I feel that if I only comment on a few tracks I am implicitly singling out those people/that style and adding to this air of favouritism that is creating the undercurrent here. So unless I have time to comment properly on a good number of tracks from a range of boards, I don't bother commenting at all and then this kind of backlog builds up and I feel bad commenting on anything so I just don't.

Online time is sparse for me (sadly so has music been lately!) and that was a factor in my basically bowing out of here for awhile back and spending time at Tony's site. So few people there..you could take it all in and not live on the PC. The talent and many of the original group members on Songcrafters were most impressive with their supportive and constructive comments and great original music. I'm a songwriter. I have done covers but that's not my thing. Nothing against it or backers. Each to their own. I just prefer multi-track DIY stuff. Having a board just for that makes alot of sense to me. Jazz virtuosos are all but ignored by the pop music world..and vice-versa. So what. If i chose to narrow my attention to the DIY board, i would be getting/giving feedback to those who share my main interest. I think that was the original intention of this site. I think perhaps there is room here for everybody to do their thing. Will it polarize the site? Yes, probably will to a degree. So? I think that would be better than alienating aspiring musicians who want to have fun with covers and backers. Just give them their own space...if you can do that without incurring legal litigation. Trouble is that "space" costs money (so i have been told) and if push came to shove, i would want to see the site constrict to it's original focus and let all the software DAW, cover and backer artists share their work on other sites..of which there are many to choose from. I don't think the administrators of this site owe anybody anything. They pay to to keep the lights on. I trust their judgement completely. If the boards become specialized, i for one will be here alot more. Long live Boss recorders and original music!

Pine

[T.C. Elliott]

Well, from this member who has been along for the the ride from the Yahoo Boss group to BossBR to the present Songcrafters (did i miss one?)..

microrecorders  or something like that..

[Tangled Wires]

^ I can't help but want to mention Tangles Wires at this point. They are a staple in this community, yet I don't believe Sasha has an account. I feel its worth mentioning.

You are right Tony, Sasha does not have an account here and I have mentioned this in the past to her, but she has always said that she would not have time to spend on here and was happy for me to post our music on here bearing in mind that I joined this site about a year before Tangled Wires even existed.

I could get her to join, enabling our music to be catergorized in the DIY section, but I would feel that she would only be doing it for that reason, and would not likely actually have time to participate and comment on others work (I may be wrong!), which is not in the spirit of Songcrafters, and I would probably not feel comfortable in that.

Despite the fact that I have a heavy involvement in our songs (write and play all the music, programme drums and do all the mixing), this will not merit entry into the DIY section, which I accept, as I am seeking major assistance from a non-member (lyrics and vocals).

I do feel, however, that there have been some members who have joined in the past year or so, who have presented songs on here, that have been performed by entirely non-members which, dare I say, may have had an influence on this re-think of the structure of the site.

I do accept that the line needs to be drawn, and special rules can't be made for members who make a "significant" contribution with their bands. I suppose, however, you could argue that a song that has taken a month to write and record should not be placed in the same category as somebody who has spent 10 minutes noodling over a downloaded backing track, which effectively is what will happen with my posts and some others (False Prophets and MoO spring to mind)

Having been a member of the site for over 3 years now, I have witnessed first hand the growth and changes, and like many others found this site in order to learn more about my Micro BR. Is the site too big now?...possibly...did I prefer it a couple of years ago when it was solely focussed on Boss Recorders?...probably...but things move on.

In saying all this, I accept any decisions taken by the Admin team, and as most of us will remember, a year ago there was a strong possibility that this site was not going to exist anymore, and if was not for the generosity and continued huge effort of these guys we would not even be discussing this, and would not have, what still is, the best music site on the net.