Is it possible to set up an EXTERNAL FX loop with a Boss BR1600?

[Super 8]

Hi, I just got hold of a cool outboard effects unit and would like to use it in the way I've been using the Reverb & Delay effects built into the BOSS BR1600 but ... I can't seem to work out the connectivity. This external FX unit I wish to incorporate has one dedicated (stereo) jack on the back panel for sending and receiving a signal but I can't fathom where to input (and output!) on my BOSS - it's as though the BOSS was only really designed for working 'within the box' as it were. Am I right in thinking I should be using the 7&8 Audio Sub Mixer inputs on te BOSS? Is anybody able to shed any light on this? I'm currently just using this external FX unit in-line (which means I'm committing to printing the external effect as I record). Ideally I'd like to not have to commit at the recording stage and leave the applying of loop effects to the mixing stage. Any help on this topic would be much appreciated - CHEERS! 

[StephenM]

I have been using a BR1600 for about 10 years and there are people on here who know more than I do by far but.... I have contemplated this as well...and to be honest the only way I know to do it is to run your line out to your effects unit and send just that one channel of record to it... and then you would have to bring it back in on another channel of record as an input...and you would have to be in multitrack mode on the top left buttons.... I have been thinking of using this same way for a 31 band graphic eq.... you could effect more than one channel at a time but this would end up being more like a bounce i think.... I am kind of thinking most people now that record on the Boss are sending each track seperately to a DAW to mix...and then add effects... I actually do both still... and I now have two BR1600 that i can synch together which can come in very handy....for alot of extra tracks...
I don't know if this helps and there maybe another way...the manual is very detailed but I lost mine...silly me...

[bruno]

It doesn't support this at all. There is no built in loop send and return on the BR1600 as far as I'm aware.

One thing I've never tried is line out -> external effects -> input record channel

That's like a bounce looping to another track - that then becomes an effected v-track? You'd have to put it in bounce mode and then through record in real time. Not sure it would work, or if there would be any impedance issues??? Just floating an idea - or seeing if anyone else has tried this?
B

[StephenM]

It doesn't support this at all. There is no built in loop send and return on the BR1600 as far as I'm aware.

One thing I've never tried is line out -> external effects -> input record channel

That's like a bounce looping to another track - that then becomes an effected v-track? You'd have to put it in bounce mode and then through record in real time. Not sure it would work, or if there would be any impedance issues??? Just floating an idea - or seeing if anyone else has tried this?
B

^^^^^^^^^^^
I am going to try it... I am quite sure it will work... and i don't think you'll even have to shift out of input to bounce.... will post back when i try it....

[StephenM]

I tried it and it does work but I wasn't exactly crazy about how it sounded... what I would do if I were going to add effects in the manner described in the post is add them on the way in... and I realize alot of people won't do that.... I do it on my guitar all the time (bass too) and if you think about it the keyboards have effects added as they go in.... often times there are reverbs and choruses etc used on the particular keyboard sounds you choose.... vocals obviously get a bit trickier because you can't change it once it is there....
and you can see why pretty much everyone know mixes (and many totally record on) a DAW..... it just makes too much sense now adays....

[AndyR]

Nope, like the guys have said, it's not possible in the way that we'd want to do it on a traditional desk and tape machines set up (which is pretty much mimicked in the limited experience I have of DAWs some years ago).

When I first got the BR1600, I wondered whether it was a mistake they left it out, but then I realised they made it cost-effective, and probably easier to use, for most folks who'd want an "all-in-the-box" solution.

In the "LOOP EFFECTS" on the front, they've modelled an internal AUX 1 and AUX 2 bus with a master return LEVEL control on each (doesn't need the master SEND because it's all internal and there's no chance of overloading the effects input- at least I've never managed it!! ).

They added to that the AUX sends required on each channel.

What they didn't implement was a channel PRE/POST FADER setting - I so wish they'd done that, eg the reverb from the performance without the performance is a glorious thing to have at your disposal.

They've assigned their CHORUS/DELAY/DOUBLING effect processor to AUX 1 and their REVERB processor to AUX 2. A nice touch is they've added an extra AUX 2 send to the end of the AUX 1 chain when the type is DELAY - that's really handy sometimes, and it's not easy to fake it on the BR1600.

What I sometimes also wish they'd done is allow you to reassign what effect processor is on AUX 1 or AUX 2, including all of their insert effect algorithms - there's some groovy choruses and delays in there that would go nice in a master bus loop sort of situation. And what, for example, if you wanted to apply dirt (guitar amp stuff) to all the backing vocals? Crazy, but some folks is crazy... However, it's easy enough to fake the use of an insert effect in place of a loop effect by creating bounces with the insert effect printed as you want it. Takes a little longer, though.

What they COULD have done is added a further option to AUX 1: CHORUS/DELAY/DOUBLING/EXTERNAL. And, as a minimum, two TRS (stereo) sockets on the back for the send and return. But then they'd have wondered about AUX 2, and that would have required more sockets. And then they'd have realised that someone like me would have been wondering "if you've given me external loop effects, then why no inserts on the tracks, especially the mono ones?" And that would have added a TRS (send and return) socket for each mono track.

And then they'd have realised - hang on, why are we putting our effects in for free if we're offering the connectivity?

So, I guess, the answer was, we're making our flagship portable standalone solution, everything you need is in the box. If you want to go further on mixing options, export the audio and use it with your other kit (assuming you even bought the BR1600 anyway).

That's why I bought the BR1600 - it's all in the box. I furloughed a couple of out-board effect things when I got it, and I've never switched them on since (actually, they're still boxed from when we moved house years ago). I kept the mixing desk because it allows me to switch between what source is going into the BRs stereo inputs 7 and 8, and it also feeds the monitor system so I can play guitar, keyboards, listen to music, etc, etc without turning on the BR.

I used to run mics through the desk so I could use the desk inserts to put dbx compressor/limiter in the chain before it hit the BR... I even had it side-chaining for de-essing... but I stopped doing that years ago, loads of hassle for not much gain. So the dbx is retired (I use it sometimes to squash a piano, or even as an inline compressor between a guitar and an amp). My mics go straight into the BR now, I either record VOCAL if one mic is in use, or MULTI-TRACK if more than one (remember to mute all the other inputs in LEVEL CALIBRATION when you do this, VOCAL mutes 1 and 3-8, STEREO mutes 1-6 automatically, but MULTI assumes you might be using all 8, so any you don't use will hiss if you don't mute them).

By the way, even though I have the desk permanently sending "stereo" to the BR's 7 and 8 inputs, I hardly ever record stereo. I set the BR to STEREO TRACKS and only arm one track for recording. So, for example, for a piano: I turn off all reverb on the keyboard, send stereo to the desk (cos it sounds nice when playing without recording), from there send stereo to the BR (so I can record stereo if I really want it), but usually I let the BR sum it to mono on one recorded track.

There's a couple of scenarios I'll record an electric guitar part in stereo.

The first is if I want "interesting" guitar-processor effects. I have a Vox Tonelab LE which I rarely use now (it used to be my main amp modellor). But it has a stereo delay with ducking that is to die for. If I could have a send/return loop on the BR, that would be fab, but I don't... so I have to dig the Vox out and relearn how to get what I want... and then like Stephen says, I record wet and print them on the track (recorded stereo). If I want Univibe or other fancy stuff, I need to do the same. But if I want a wah-wah, I use the POD XTLive (the Vox's predecessor here), because that has MUCH better wah modelling than the Vox does. And, incidentally, it's much better than my actual Vox wah that I bought in 1982 or so!! That one is kinda retro and "righteous" but it is SO noisy!! For a recording, the PODXTLive beats it hands down.

It's less of an issue digging the PODXTLive out too - it's plumbed in permanently because it's fully loaded with all the Bass packs, so it's my bass amp. But it does mean it's only plumbed in to send mono to the desk.

The second scenario is with the main amp modellor I use now. It's a Yamaha THR100HD. It's actually two discrete amps in one, permanently DI'd into channels 1 and 2 on my mixing desk. And that lets you bi-amp like the pros!! Even something as simple as the same amp type and settings on both, but one through a 4x12 and one through a 2x12 sounds HUGE. Rory Gallagher's preferred late 70s set up of a 50W m/v Marshall 2x12 Combo and an AC30, etc, etc... But the bi-amping only really sounds effective if the two signals are panned, at least slightly, otherwise it's not really worth the effort and fiddling. So, if I ever use it in anger on a recording, I'll need to record in stereo. But... have you ever known me do a recording where there's one guitar part?! LOL ... so far it has not been worth the hassle... but it is WONDROUS for playing when I'm not recording.


Finally, back to the BR... I'm one of the folks who mixes and masters on the BR. I bought it because it was all in the box (including the drums, I haven't used any of my drum machines since I got the BR1600). All my mixes are done on the BR, using what they have inside. A few years back, I did export audio and attempted to mix on a DAW. I could see where it was going, and it was OK, but the sounds were not as good/natural as I was getting from the BR and its convertors, so I went back to the BR. Over the past year I have been researching audio interfaces for the switch back to a DAW, but I'm not ready yet!

I kind of LIKE the restrictions I have in the BR1600. It forces me to be creative and concentrate on the sounds and arrangements. It means my GAS for outboard gear just disappeared - I've accepted the reverbs/delays/compressors I have in my studio are good enough to make records, so I use them. More to spend on the more import GAS of GEETARS!

BUT, if I had a fancy effects processor... I would be thinking "WHY CAN'T I USE IT??! Oh bum..."

So I feel your pain Super 8

[StephenM]

They've assigned their CHORUS/DELAY/DOUBLING effect processor to AUX 1 and their REVERB processor to AUX 2. A nice touch is they've added an extra AUX 2 send to the end of the AUX 1 chain when the type is DELAY - that's really handy sometimes, and it's not easy to fake it on the BR1600.

What they COULD have done is added a further option to AUX 1: CHORUS/DELAY/DOUBLING/EXTERNAL. And, as a minimum, two TRS (stereo) sockets on the back for the send and return. But then they'd have wondered about AUX 2, and that would have required more sockets. And then they'd have realised that someone like me would have been wondering "if you've given me external loop effects, then why no inserts on the tracks, especially the mono ones?" And that would have added a TRS (send and return) socket for each mono track.

So, I guess, the answer was, we're making our flagship portable standalone solution, everything you need is in the box. If you want to go further on mixing options, export the audio and use it with your other kit (assuming you even bought the BR1600 anyway).

That's why I bought the BR1600 - it's all in the box. I furloughed a couple of out-board effect things when I got it, and I've never switched them on since (actually, they're still boxed from when we moved house years ago). I kept the mixing desk because it allows me to switch between what source is going into the BRs stereo inputs 7 and 8, and it also feeds the monitor system so I can play guitar, keyboards, listen to music, etc, etc without turning on the BR.

I used to run mics through the desk so I could use the desk inserts to put dbx compressor/limiter in the chain before it hit the BR... I even had it side-chaining for de-essing... but I stopped doing that years ago, loads of hassle for not much gain. So the dbx is retired (I use it sometimes to squash a piano, or even as an inline compressor between a guitar and an amp). My mics go straight into the BR now, I either record VOCAL if one mic is in use, or MULTI-TRACK if more than one (remember to mute all the other inputs in LEVEL CALIBRATION when you do this, VOCAL mutes 1 and 3-8, STEREO mutes 1-6 automatically, but MULTI assumes you might be using all 8, so any you don't use will hiss if you don't mute them).

Finally, back to the BR... I'm one of the folks who mixes and masters on the BR. I bought it because it was all in the box (including the drums, I haven't used any of my drum machines since I got the BR1600). All my mixes are done on the BR, using what they have inside. A few years back, I did export audio and attempted to mix on a DAW. I could see where it was going, and it was OK, but the sounds were not as good/natural as I was getting from the BR and its convertors, so I went back to the BR. Over the past year I have been researching audio interfaces for the switch back to a DAW, but I'm not ready yet!

I kind of LIKE the restrictions I have in the BR1600. It forces me to be creative and concentrate on the sounds and arrangements. It means my GAS for outboard gear just disappeared - I've accepted the reverbs/delays/compressors I have in my studio are good enough to make records, so I use them. More to spend on the more import GAS of GEETARS!

It is amazing Andy how well you know the BR...  I stumbled into mine years ago (2010).... in 2009 I wasn't even playing music anymore, didn't even own a bass or guitar and some guys who just moved here from out of state were playing at church and we became friends...one thing led to another and before long I was playing acoustic bass with them...and we were writing songs and Peter had a BR but didn't really know how to use it and I had previously owned a Tascam portastudio 4 track cassette so he gave it to me to record us...and over time and alot of head scratching, trial and error, reading the manual etc i became fairly proficient at using it.... but I would say I cannot touch your vocal recordings.... probably recordings in general... you get such a great vocal sound and you really know how to mix them...
I still use the BR alot and now use tandem sometimes when i am doing alot of tracks... I found out fairly easy how to synch them using midi, the digital output, and the audio out of deck two... the negative is that if I desire to mix totally on the BR you have to send deck two mix to deck one with a digital to analog conversion so that is not as good...but what you can do is either send each track to a DAW and mix...or mix each unit seperate and then transfer the mixed file from the unit 2 to unit 1....this way there is no loss....

I agree that the onboard effects are very good...much better than my zoom... I especially love the delay for both guitar and vocals at times... and I am getting much better at eq ing the low frequencies....you can hear my bass drum and bass guitar much better now (thanks to your ideas and information and a few others as well on here)....

For me generally I plug the mic in through my Behringer mixing board and then send to record on the BR because I get a better signal that way...I suppose it must be me though because you don't and you get great vocal sounds....

At the end of the day this is still a great and very portable unit... I know there are some professionals out there that use these still for live recordings and then mix down on DAW....

I see why Boss doesn't make these any more though...everyone is going to DAW....  I use both now... but i don't ever see myself recording direct to daw... it's just too easy to do it on the zoom or the BR...

and at the price you can get these, why not get another?

[Super 8]

Thanks very much for your replies Folks (and for all the extra BR1600-related info too!) I too synch two units together - I've been doing that for quite some time now. Anyway, back to my original post here ... my latest workaround (in order to incorporate this external FX unit I speak of) is as follows:

Record something (a vocal; guitar part; whatever) to my BR1600 #2 then send the playback out via the LEFT line out (RCA > 1/4") into the external FX then out from the ext FX into my BR1600 #1 (in record mode having adjusted the effect and level to my taste before hitting record on BR#2).

So, effectively a bounce .... but externally. No, it's NOT ideal and, yes, I'm printing with the effect to the track but it's better than nothing I s'pose. (It's still a time-consuming faff mind! I'd much prefer to use it as intended ie: as a regular LOOP effect at the mixing stage of proceedings. Oh well, hey ho!)

And while I'm back on here, some personal BR1600 background if anyone's interested ...

Like I say, I've been recording using a BR1600 (well, two now actually!) for many years. I did briefly move to 'the dark side' (LOL!) for a spell  but recording direct to a computer just felt too much like being at work. The thing I REALLY dig about these old, standalone, dedicated music-making portastudios is the whole 'hands-on thing' - active mixes! (I'm definitely more of a 'hands-on' type of guy when it comes to music making!) That said, I'm aware that there's a lot more one can do with PC-recording these days (eg: that Abbey Road software looks great!) but I perversely like the limitations of working the way in which I do ... most of the time anyway! I think it forces me to think 'outside the (portastudio) box' and ultimately makes me think more musically & creatively as a result. I dunno, maybe that's just my mindset! Truth be told, I don't really like computers very much (although I'm not a total Luddite! I can see why they're necessary in this day and age - there's PRO's & CON's!) But yeah, my couple of trusty old BR1600s are still hanging on in there (thankfully!) They've been a great musical tool for me this century - they just allow me to get my ideas down quickly (without getting swamped in too much technical stuff!) In fact, I've even recorded and produced a number of commercial albums on the BR1600 (which I don't think they were originally made for. They were meant to be demo machines, right?) In fact, I'm currenting in the process of working up (yet) another album right now (which is pencilled in for a Spring 2021 release through a Canadian record label).

In a nutshell: Yeah, there's definitely things I'd change about this particular BR model (eg: more available tracks; effects send/return outputs!) but this pretty obsolete & antiquated Boss unit has been a very dependable workhorse for me down through the years. It's all horses for courses, innit? Whatever works for you! One man's rubbish is another man's gold ,etc ... CHEERS! 

[StephenM]

I would like to hear some more about using the two BRs together....when you can...anything you learned over the years....  I just listened to your recordings...first time I heard you (I came on in August....) and your recordings are fantastic.... very clean and lean... professional.... Please do more...
I totally agree about the BR...they are great devices... kind of like some old farm equipment that people used for years but then something else came along... I don't see myself ever getting rid of my BRs.... and I just got my second a few months ago... I have done some good mixes on mine totally by ear.... I think I have used more than 20 tracks a few times.... I tend to have trouble staying organized.... now I am trying to use the same inputs for the same instruments so I don't have to change eq and stuff all the time...