MIDI with GR20 frustration.

[Glenn Mitchell]

I got this simple little MIDI interface (M Audio midisport 1x1) for Christmas and am having no luck.
My input of choice is guitar.
The idea was to use the GR20's midi out to the M Audio
and then to the computer and Sonar's X1 Studio to lay down some midi trax.
No one at Sonar can understand what's going wrong.
When I play (say setup "A") I can hear the GR20 thru the earphones at the computer on playback but not at the GR20. This is only if I set the GR20 to Local control off.
If I ignore Local control,(setup "B") I can hear what I play at the GR20 and it records, but no I hear no playback from the computer. (unless I set the track's output to the sound card)
There is a significant latency issue if I monitor play input at the computer thru the sound cared.
The oddest thing seems to be that I can also hear the sample settings on the GR20 and that shouldn't happen without audio cables. They also record!! As if the GR20 sample signals are bleeding over the MIDI lines.
Hopefully someone who has a GR20 working with a DAW for MIDI can help?

Not talking about Audio at all here.

I installed the drivers
GR20 MIDI (5 pin) attached to MIDI out
To the new MIDISPORT MIDI in
USB from MIDI to computer.
Boot Sonar and set the ins and outs to the M Adio driver
A midi track set to channel 1 like the GR20

I need a clean slate setup here. Anyone?
I'm about to give up on MIDI because I'm not a keyboard player and that seems to be what it's all designed for.
How am I supposed to get funky MIDI without my guitar for input?

[64Guitars]

First, let's make sure we have the same expectations about what should be happening.

I'll assume the MidiOut of the GR-20 is connected to the MidiIn of the M-Audio midisport which is connected to your computer's USB port, and that nothing else from the GR-20 is connected to your computer. I'll also assume that you've got Sonar running.

Hold down the first string of your guitar at the third fret and pluck the string. This sends the midi command "play a G note" to the midisport which passes it to Sonar. The GR-20 sends that midi command on one of 16 possible channels. In order for Sonar to recognize the command, it must be setup to receive on the same channel. So, the first thing to do is make sure you know which channel the GR-20 is sending on, then set Sonar to recieve on that channel.

If you want to hear some sound, then the midi command has to be sent to some sound-generating hardware (your computer's sound card, for example) or software (a soft-synth). Sonar probably comes with a soft-synth of some kind which will do the job. The soft-synth must be setup to receive midi commands on the same channel that the GR-20 is sending them on. Or, you can set Sonar's midi output device to your computer's sound card. That might be easier.


You might have better luck if you start with a simpler program than Sonar. Although I haven't tried it myself, this looks like it would do the job:

http://code.google.com/p/virtualpiano/

Run the program and click the Options button. Set the input device to your midisport and set the output device to your sound card's synth or some other available synth.

If you can get this program to work, then it's just a matter of learning how to do the same thing in Sonar.


Have you read Roland's introduction to MIDI booklet? It might help you.

http://cms.rolandus.com/assets/media/pdf/INFOCUS01_MIDI.pdf

[Glenn Mitchell]

All good ideas thanks 64. I've just learned about the soft synth part of the equation.
And good idea about a simpler program to get that out of the confusion conglomerate.
As an aside, I'm also wondering how to get the better sounding BR800 in the chain instead of the sound card but again I'm probably best to work that out later too.
I'll do the research and keep you apprised.

Have a happy new year if I don't get it figured out before then.

[Glenn Mitchell]

UPdate
No problem getting the signal thru from guitar GR20 thru MIDISPORT to Sonar to Soft synth and back to BR800 headphones but still getting a delay that makes it unusable for tracking much less overdubs.
My direction at this time is to replace the MIDISPORT with one that has a headphone jack.
Odd that the GR20 headphone does not work for this. (Setting it to Local Control OFF disconnects it, leaving it on of course you hear the GR20 programs)

[hooper]

In the MIDI world that delay is called latency.  Used to be a bigger problem in 'the old days' when everybody's computer wasn't so fast. Assuming that your computer is fast enough (which it probably is) you may just need to set the MIDI Playback Buffers.... which will have effect on latency and how many notes you can play at the same time.

Also make sure your MIDI cables are not longer than necessary.

If you haven't already found this... you might find it useful:
http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/audio/9781435458505/customizing-sonar-for-your-workflow/25#X2ludGVybmFsX0ZsYXNoUmVhZGVyP3htbGlkPTk3ODE0MzU0NTg1MDUvaXg=

[Oldrottenhead]

not much help with midi guitars etc, but i had problems in the past with latency on an old midi keyboard going through cubase and problem was solved by a bit of software called asio4all http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/ASIO4ALL/1080068068/1

[Glenn Mitchell]

Thanks James. The asio4all didn't run on my XP machine (an illegal command).
Ken, my buffers were set to 250.
Thanks anyway guys but I can't even get a sound 3/4 of the time and every time I plug something in or make a switch on something, the sound drops out and I have no idea how to get it going again other than to rerun the program, delete and reinstall the soft synth, turn pretty much everything off and on and even then I only get it running on occasion.
For all I know my MIDI cable is no good, but with the need to have about 40 things right before it works, it's much too fussy for me with this equipment. I'm going back to Audio.
I'm thinking my GR20 does not want to play with this device or my computer, or the BR800 or the settings, or the channel setting, or the, or the etc etc.
I'll come back to MIDI either when I learn keyboards and buy a synth or they get it to be Plug and Play for guitars (EG if a simple thing like a cord being too long creates problems it's WAY too fussy.) .

Sigh. I HATE not "getting" something.
consider this thread closed

[64Guitars]

Sorry to hear it's not working out for you, Glenn. If you're not totally fed up with it, you could try asking for help on the Yahoo! MIDI Guitar forum:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/

Since that's all they do there, you'll find lots of people who use the GR-20 and probably several who use SONAR with it. They may be able to give you detailed instructions on how to setup your gear and diagnose this problem. Once you get over this initial hurdle, it won't seem so bad.

[SdC]

My experience with the GR-33 and using MIDI (also using an M-audio MIDISport (4x2)), is that the interface is JUST fast enough to capture the MIDI stream to DAW. Using this to play a soft synth real-time is too slow however, this seems to be your experience too.
I can use it to record parts, but I record the MIDI track while monitoring a GR-sound, not a soft-synth sound, and after recording take some time to adjust the timing (quantitize etc.), and select a good sound.
The reason is that the guitar synth MIDI signals are very complex, compared to a keyboard's input; for a keyboard a note requires just 2 or 3 MIDI messages (note on, velocity, note off), but with guitar synth each note has a real-time pitch bend with each note.
There are some things to alleviate the issue if MIDI can't keep up: use chromatic sounds in the GR (keyboard-type instruments such as piano's. organs) instead of bending instruments (strings, horns, guitars). Or (on the GR-33 at least) there are some system settings to reduce the amount of pitch bend signals in the MIDI stream. Obviously, that will impact tracking accuracy.

[Glenn Mitchell]

Thanks for that SdC. It certainly makes sense and is in keeping with my experience.
I was using a soft synth piano so it was probably as simple as it was going to get.
My problem with using a GR20 sound while tracking is that the soft synth I eventually use does not seem to ever translate the feel I used on the GR20 sound.
One guy suggested I would be better off abandoning the idea and just tracking with the great GR20 sounds as Audio files and be satisfied.
It's starting to sound like the best advice for getting the maximum feel with the minimum of technology.
I don't have a lot of hair left anyway.
I could get a small keyboard (Or use my wife's) and see if I could learn well enough to play along for simple tracking. Good enough for padding at least.