Swindle Or Not?????

[Bluesberry]

I just found this on a blog somewhere, interesting read...

Kudos to Jeff out there in cyberspace for commenting on my little aside about rock ripoff artists Led Zeppelin (see my previous post about Led Zep and rock reunions). I love this topic.

Jeff writes: Led Zeppelin ripped off more than Willie Dixon. Ever hear of Jake Holmes? They stole his song Dazed and Confused.

Yes, Jeff, I've heard of Jake Holmes and Zep ripping off Dazed and Confused. Zeppelin ripped off so many songs and artists it's almost beyond belief.

Visit www.warr.org/zep.html for a full list.
There's a zillion such sites, just search something like "Zep as ripoffs" and read on . . .

OK, folks, we'll save you the trouble:

Here's the list, and comments, from the above site, which also contains reviews of Zep albums . . .

• ""Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."

• "Black Mountain Side" - uncredited version of a traditional folk tune previously recorded by Bert Jansch.

• "Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson). Blogovich sez: This gets complicated in the "imposter" Sonny Boy part. There were indeed two of the dude, Rice Miller (the second Sonny Boy) and John Lee Williamson (Sonny Boy I) although Sonny Boy II wound up being, arguably, the more well-known, partly because he lasted longer — Sonny Boy I was murdered at age 34 during a robbery, but we don't have time or space to get into all that; read a blues book if you're interested. Bottom line: Zep ripped the song off.

• "Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."

• "Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."

• "Dazed And Confused" - uncredited cover of the Jake Holmes song (see The Above Ground Sound Of Jake Holmes). Blogovich sez: This is the one to which Jeff, who commented on the blog, refers.

• "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."

• "How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."

• "In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).

• "The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70's and settled out of court.

• "Moby Dick" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.

• "Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.

• "Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.

• "Stairway To Heaven" - the main guitar line is apparently from "Taurus" by Spirit. Blogovich sez: Not "apparently". This one is startling. Taurus, by Spirit (great band, pick up a compilation at least, highly recommended), is an instrumental of three minutes' duration; Zep copied the entire song and used it as the intro to Stairway. Give it a listen. But sit down first. Ridiculous.

• "White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

• " Whole Lotta Love" - lyrics are from the Willie Dixon blues "You Need Love."

• Here's one not from the site but from Blogovich: Give "Sail Away" by Deep Purple (1974 Burn album with David Coverdale on lead vocals) a listen and tell me Zep's Trampled Underfoot from Physical Graffiti (1975) isn't the same borrowed-from-Ritchie Blackmore riff, just speeded up. And Zep singer Robert Plant had the gall, at the height of the later Whitesnake's admittedly Zep-derivative success, to call Coverdale "David Coverversion"? Amazing arrogance and the pot calling the kettle black crap. Further, Plant's got the gall to write forwards to blues books and such, while his band so overtly ripped off those same artists. Amazing arrogance, Percy.

Zep defenders say old blues artists did the same thing with tunes, borrowing, adjusting, and so on. And that is in some measure arguably true. But nobody ever did it to Zep's extent.  Not even close. Perhaps they could have given just a wee bit of credit where it was due?

That's why, despite the hours of enjoyment (and maybe that's enough for some people and that's OK) Zep provided, they'll always be a few cuts below the all-time greats in my estimation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCMDR0yrxMw

[AndyR]

EDIT: First bit pre-bluesberry's post

I've been checking out CD covers and my old vinyl copies.

Interestingly, none of the re-issues of the originals (with the exception of the recent expanded Song Remains) have ANY differences in songwriting credits.

How the West corrects the credit for Bring it on Home to Willie Dixon (and then says it includes Bring it on Back, by Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham), and Willie Dixon has also been added to the credits for Whole Lotta Love (as he has on the new Song Remains, but NOT on the re-issue of II).

On Led Zeppelin I, the original sleeve, I ought to point out that You Shook Me and I Can't Quit You are actually credited to the correct author - Willie Dixon again. But How Many More Times isn't... Thing is though, I have the "original" How Many More Years, and the lyrics are different (and The Hunter, a very well known song, is also quoted in the middle of Led Zeppelin's version, as well as several other snippets which I suspect are quotes of other famous sons). But, if you go digging in the blues, there are lots of songs with common roots, all credited to different bluesmen!!

On Led Zeppelin III, original vinyl and sleeve, there's a fair bit of "Trad arranged by" including Gallows Pole and Hats off to Roy... - this is standard words for "it's an old song but we don't know who wrote it..."

Having looked at all this today - I have a feeling that whoever set up the copy and registered the recordings for the earlier albums thought that they were doing the right thing. Why would they credit some and not others?

EDIT: Just went to post, and found Bluesberry's post. Interesting stuff. That "Trad" bit for Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - that seems to fit what I was imagining. It's "Trad arranged Page" on my old LP. JP or RP (there are arguments as to whose idea it was - it was one of Plant's favourites when they were sounding each other out) got the song from Joan Baez's version (I wonder who that was credited to? ) - and obviously they didn't know who wrote it. Interesting that, once they found the original author, if they have changed it to Bredon/Page/Plant, Plant obviously pointed out that he'd written some new lyrics!!

Nowadays, your management and legal team would be bricking themselves (and would be all over the internet looking for publishing details - couldn't do that in them days remember!), but I don't think it was regarded as such a big deal then - and like I said earlier, some of these songs, the rest of the band didn't even know that RP was singing covers!! (And he's not exactly the brightest penny in the purse - so I don't think it would even crossed his mind he was doing something wrong)

By the late 70s early 80s, there was a lot more awareness. I can remember singing Stormy Monday blues in my set around that time and being very unhappy that I couldn't credit it to the actual writer. I'd learnt the lyrics (without the famous jazz/blues chord sequence) off a live performance on "Round Midnight" on BBC Radio 2 - but I didn't know the composer.  Some people around me were saying "so what? Trad Arr is the standard way..."
But after a month or so, one of the regulars in the audience managed to track it down for me (it's T-Bone Walker, by the way!)

By today's standards, Led Zeppelin were wrong. But by the standards of the day, they were "not as vigilante" as some of their contempories, they did the usual thing for the time - stick the record out, if someone catches up with it we'll argue or settle as appropriate... it would only be an issue if they made money anyway.

I do think that by the mid 70s they might have wised-up... (eg Nobody's Fault) but remember the horrendous state things were in by then - alcoholic homesick drummer, heroin addict guitarist, singer and singer's family just recovering from near fatal car crash, the entire entourage turned into some sort of crazy viking-raiding-party that never grew up, "shoot first, ask questions, or throw money later..."

And it would be nice, but only nice, if the survivors could make some sort of acknowledgement. But remember they don't trust the press/media - even now...

It does appear that the only biggie where they've seriously changed the credit is Whole Lotta Love. I would assume this is due to legal action... But when it comes down to it, the lyrics to that thing are important, but they ain't what sold the thing!

I dunno, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but whoever wrote that thing that Bluesberry quotes is not really telling the whole story... and anyone say, under 25, mebbe even older, would have any possibility of knowing
that that's the case...



And speaking of Deep Purple - you are all aware that their biggest hit is a bit of a troubling thing in itself? They were under pressure for a single, were getting nowhere. After a trip up the pub, Blackmore starts noodling on a riff he knows... band joins in... "hey this is pretty good" "it's from a Ricky Nelson song" "we can't use it then" "why not, it's only a riff - and have you ever heard it?" ... so they carried on, nicked the title from another song and wrote jibberish for the rest (this is all from the sleevenotes to In Rock, by the way! Page etc could have done similar in their re-issues, but they learnt to keep everything private - they wouldn't speak to anyone except in riddles... it would undermine the "legend" if they suddenly added extensive sleevenotes to the original albums!!)

[AndyR]

Just listened to the Geir link to Jake Holmes...

I have NOT heard that before... and I am utterly perplexed by what Page thought he was at over that one.

On wiki, I've found that the Yardbirds version was actually credited "Jake Holmes arr The Yardbirds".

The lyrics are different, and you can't copyright a title... but, the basic melody structure, and where the lyric "Dazed and Confused" sits, are all there...

The middle section is all Page's he created that in the Yardbirds, and that "section", violin bow and all, was the original bedrock of Led Zeppelin itself...

Now I've watched the Bluesberry link... hmmm...

Most of it seems to fit with the insulated bubble that Page and Grant set out to create in 69 after all the @rse he'd been through with the wreck of the Yardbirds. Page was extremely angry, frustrated, etc, and was adamant that he was going to be in sole charge of his next project and it was not going to be fouled up by a bunch of idiots. Grant's game plan was you (Page) do the music and get the performance done, I'll make sure you guys get the f**king money. (Grant was a road manager originally, I think, before he took on Page.)

Anyway, the organisation that they, and their success built, was pretty much "we're right, and, hey, even if we're not, we can afford to be wrong...".

And, it pretty much worked until 76/77...

It kind of caused a certain air of superiority and paranoia, and they only vaguely paid lip service to anyone else. And then when it started going wrong it was real bad...

The Dazed and Confused thing troubles me more though... It sounds to me like Page did know, very clearly, what he was doing on that one...

But there's still that strange  mixture of credit and not on that first album - overall it looks like incompetance rather than anything else.

Mebbe Jake Holmes just got burned thoughtlessly because Page didn't want any of the idiots (as he'd have regarded them at the time) that were ex-Yardbirds to get anything out of Dazed and Confused - he believed that what the Yardbird's had added, he'd done virtually single-handedly. By the way, for those that might not know, the middle section of the "Page" Dazed and Confused was the blue-print for the "new" and experimental part of his new project. Whoever was going to be in his new band was going to have to play that, no matter what else they did.

I dunno... they did some real sh1tty things (nothing to do with this copyright business), they turned into really nasty people for a while, and didn't understand how or why. They set out to do something amazing, and they succeeded, but when they'd managed it, they found out it nearly killed them all... it did kill several people.

Several times over the last few years, I've wondered what it must be like to be Jimmy Page. His entire being was this musical project he dreamt up. And he conquered the world with it. And then it all started to peel apart, and then just as they were rebuilding after a couple of really bad years, it came crashing down 30 years ago... He got to the top, and then it collapsed, and he's been missing it ever since... it's like someone said "your life's over but you've got live for another 30-40 years"

Sorry, that last bit's a bit off topic! (EDIT: Greeny, Geir, ORH, SUMBODY... there's a song in it, but I haven't been able to write it, I've tried, but I can't...)

[Gnasty]

Isn`t it strange that the guy who made the Youtube video that BB posted had to pull the songs for copyright infringement?? HAHA......But he also is a Zeppelin fan too.

I mean YES i do believe it all happened, but i just don`t want to believe it, that`s the problem 

[Bluesberry]

Isn`t it strange that the guy who made the Youtube video that BB posted had to pull the songs for copyright infringement?? HAHA......But he also is a Zeppelin fan too.

I mean YES i do believe it all happened, but i just don`t want to believe it, that`s the problem  

I'm with you there Gnasty.  I regularly listen to Led Zep (the first two albums are always my favorite ones, I love the guitar tones, the killer bass lines, the intense swagger of Plant).  I listened last week.  It does make me think when listening a bit now though.  That "Killing Floor" one really gets to me, they re-recorded it and changed the name and pretended they wrote it, it was only after lawsuit that they owned up to the swindle.  

[Kevin Mammoth]

Amazing - first time I've heard that Jake Holmes and the similarity is rather striking....