Any philosophers out there?

[jackofall]

This is about as 'off topic' as they come, but I'd like to know your views on this philosophical question that has been buzzing in my mind. Comical and serious contributions welcome!

Scientists point out that everything has a natural cause. This has to include our minds. Our minds are 'caused' by brain activity. We have no real free will because our minds are ultimately just obeying the laws of physics. Material reality is all there is....Okay....here's the problem. If our minds are ultimately, just material reality, it follows that through scientific investigation, material reality (us) is trying to understand itself. Whenever we try to understand ourselves and what we are, reality is looking back at itself to try to understand itself....this is the interesting bit... If a stone studies itself and concludes,'I am just an unconscious lump of material reality...', suddenly the stone is more than what it says it is. It is conscious.

suddenly, the entire universe IS consciousness....and blind, unconscious reality can't exist.

I hope that makes sense!!!!

[Oldrottenhead]

you should watch this on the iplayer http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nhv56/Horizon_20092010_The_Secret_You/ its a documentary about self awareness with some pretty freaky experiments. the narrator, whilst having his brain scanned, the scientists scanning him can predict a choice he is going to make 6 seconds before he consciously makes that decision. according to the research in the programme only humans, chimps and orang utans are self aware and as a result conscious of their place in the environment but the downsifde of that awareness is death awareness.


for myself i find it a very interesting topic but my brain hurts trying to get my head around it. i think therefore i am........i think.....ummmmmmmmm

[jackofall]

Ah yes, I've seen that programme and that experiment. The scientists say that here's proof that we have no free will, since the brain makes decisions before we are even aware of making a decision in our minds. But what makes the brain make that decision? What law of physics makes it decide what to do? I reckon they've just pushed the free will problem down one level rather than proving that we don't have it at all. 

[fenderbender]

 
interesting -
so what your suggesting is -say
it is really hissing rain here at the moment -I have to go to the local supermarket -
so the decision has already been made -and im going to get hissed on -fact-

but when im going into the shop -has the decision been made that im going to be splashed by a passing car fact? dunno
am I only following the keys as I tpye this -so my ytping misteaks have already been predetermined --fact -ah I dunno
but what a great subject for discussion over a few beers

[OsCKilO]

David Hume    +  René Descartes...


  "Cogito, ergo sum"     +    "Causation"




One notion Seems to detract from the other, despite being compatible....
Quite a sad concept really....
Strips away the Magic of Humanity....

[Oldrottenhead]

my interpretation of that experiment was that it did prove we had free will but that although our brain was working on the problem on a subconscious level that we are not aware of we did make that decision freely. or did we my brain hurts.
but i am sure fenderbender is correct in that a few beers will make things a lot clearer, pity i am at work.
am i at work of my own free will or because i have a wife and two children that wish to be kept in the style they are accustomed too.

i am quite interested in post modernism, basically i understand that to be a theory that nothing can be proved conclusively but you  can pick and choose from all the various theories available to solve the issue you are investigating, however with the advent of catscans and the like there are lots of things about the brain that can be proved empirically. but like anything you look at deeply you solve one question you bring up another million to be asked. like the nature nurture debate its a hard one to resolve and as new discoveries are made on a daily basis the ..........................my brain hurts

[SteveB]

My Philosophy is that Evolution would have engineered something other than Grief.

[OsCKilO]

My Philosophy is that Evolution would have engineered something other than Grief.

I second that....

[T.C. Elliott]

Pain and grief have their place. It's when they are unbalanced that it becomes a problem. You can say the same thing about love. I'm sure we can all site instances that unbalanced love became problematic.

I fully believe we create our own reality. You can change your attitude towards a situation, you can change the framework in which you see things. For instance, someone is holding on to their 4 or 5 year old at a supermarket and snaps at you to get out of the way as you  are leaving the store. On first glance one would say they are angry and possibly not treating their child in a loving manner. Now take the same situation, but if you see that someone tried to grab that child just moments earlier suddenly you are no longer wary for the child but you are worried for the child. Instead of being angry at this person you are suddenly sympathetic.

Now take any situation and change the framework, or the reference point, and suddenly your understanding changes.

Who hasn't changed their way of driving based on their mood? If you are angry you drive differently. Now take that guy who cut you off and is speeding a bit. It makes most of us angry. Now if you picture that the guy just got fired and is worried about how he is gonna feed his kids it is easier to be less reactive and more accepting. Now picture the guy just got fired and has a gun. Suddenly we are less likely to float the finger at the guy cuz you don't know how he'll respond. In the first instance it changes our perception and the emotional weight toward the driver. In the second it changes our reaction.

Now every day as you go about your life try to put yourself in their shoes and suddenly you are reacting in a different light. This is a conscious decisions we all can make that will change the decisions and reactions that we make every day. Suddenly life is getting better for ourselves by giving the benefit of the doubt to all those a-holes out there that probably don't deserve it. *evil grin*

Slightly off tangent but I think ya'll get my point.

[fenderbender]

interesting ---PFjr
----------------------------

do we thru' the years programme ourselves -subconciously-
walk in the door -switch on the lights-
even guitar playing ----doing a song -trying to stop yourself putting in an Amin or a G7
when its not necessary (I know thats a bad example) but you know what I mean -

this is a subject that can go on and on