Songcrafters.org

Yo!

I am formulating my opinions on the BR-800, and one thing came up, the loss of the Tone Load function that was on the BR-600 and the BR-900CD.  Was this an overlooked feature, importing a sample and using it like a drum voice?

Is it something that wasn't missed, since no one talks about it?  It seems no one really uses it, which is sad because the idea of recording with samples of anything I wish copied into the BR to be remarkable.

Anyone have any thoughts?

The BR-800 supports Tone Load. However, you have to load the samples via the BR Rhythm Editor software (http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/dld.cfm?PRODUCT=BR-800&iRcId=41341267&dsp=1) on your computer. You can create up to 5 custom drum kits per song, then load them back into the BR-800 where they can be played by your drum arrangements.

In addition to using the Tone Load feature of the BR Rhythm Editor software, the BR-900/864/600 can also load samples directly via USB. However, this is not an advantage over the BR-800 in my opinion because you need a computer either way. So you might as well use the BR Rhythm Editor which is somewhat easier.

See page 22 of the BR Rhythm Editor manual (http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/om.cfm?PRODUCT=BR%2D800&iRcId=39599046&dsp=1) for information about loading drum samples into the BR-800.

The BR-800 Tone Load feature has the same limitation as in the BR-900/864/600. The total duration of all samples in a single drum kit (including any preset samples) cannot exceed 13 seconds.

64G is (as always) right. I have just spent many hours loading "real" drum sounds into the BR 800 via the editor. It's very straightforward and works well. I will be using that feature a lot - I bought a disc full of wav files of professionally recorded drum sounds.

Cheers,

Nigel

Tone Load is a great feature
did they break the 13 second limtation of the the older BR's?

Nope (as 64G said in his post....). If your sample's too long, it won't load.

am looking forward to hearing something from your br800 nigel, i know its gonna be worth the wait,

in anticipation
orh

Quote from: Ferryman on December 14, 2010, 04:10:11 AMNope (as 64G said in his post....). If your sample's too long, it won't load.

that's really not acceptable to me-that 13 seconds gets eaten up fast
i hoped that would have been a priority

Quote from: guitarron on December 14, 2010, 10:01:40 AMthat's really not acceptable to me-that 13 seconds gets eaten up fast
i hoped that would have been a priority

Interesting - what are you loading? I have some pretty long cymbal splashes and they were well within that.

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: oldrottenhead on December 14, 2010, 04:21:43 AMam looking forward to hearing something from your br800 nigel, i know its gonna be worth the wait,

in anticipation
orh

I hope before Xmas Jim. I am am busily working on my piece for the Picasso project, been doing that for about 4 weeks now. Nearly all the instruments are done, need to lay down vox and then mix it all. You won't believe how long I spent agonizing over what drum samples to load into my custom kit. Too much choice!

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: Ferryman on December 14, 2010, 10:47:08 AM

Quote from: guitarron on December 14, 2010, 10:01:40 AMthat's really not acceptable to me-that 13 seconds gets eaten up fast
i hoped that would have been a priority

Interesting - what are you loading? I have some pretty long cymbal splashes and they were well within that.

Cheers,

Nigel

cymbals first-because i hate the br cymbals
i've had much luck in other areas such as the latin percussion i made for it
got about 4 or five samples in there-really short slaps and such
-but they decay of a ride cymbal eats up a lot-i did one of my songs with samples i recorded directly from ezdrummer a couple of cymbals and a snare was it-but it was all i needed for that song as it turned out

if you're using all 13 seconds for one sample-that's plenty for most cases i guess
edit

i've tried to use it to replace the br kit-didnt work out for me-which is why i don't use the br drums much

Quote from: guitarron on December 14, 2010, 10:01:40 AMthat's really not acceptable to me-that 13 seconds gets eaten up fast

I think we need some real data to put this into perspective. I captured each sample from the STD 1 preset drum kit into Audacity so I could determine their durations.

Sample	Duration (seconds)
Kick	0.30
Snare	0.34
Closed HiHat	0.12
Open HiHat	1.01
Crash Cymbal	1.71
Ride Cymbal	1.55
Cross Stick	0.12
Cowbell	0.21
Tom 1	0.50
Tom 2	0.43
Tom 3	0.48
Tom 4	0.53
Total:	7.30

Most of the six drum samples are under half a second. Cross Stick, Cowbell and Closed HiHat are under one quarter of a second. The cymbals are the longest with the crash cymbal at 1.71 seconds. But there are only three cymbals (not including the closed hihat which is very brief), and the very short duration of the drum samples more than makes up for the above average duration of the cymbals.

The total duration of all 12 samples in the STD 1 drum kit is only 7.3 seconds. Based on this example, I don't think it should be too difficult to create a custom drum kit within the 13 second limit. Where you could run into a problem is when your samples are not properly trimmed. I'd recommend loading each sample into Audacity or some other wave editor and zooming in on the start and end of the sample so you can delete any silence there. Then you can save the properly trimmed sample for loading into a BR drum kit.

Of course, very long cymbals such as gongs could be a problem. But, for most drum and cymbal sounds, 13 seconds should be enough.

I currently have three different cymbal splashes loaded into my custom kit and they don't sound too short or curtailed. Plenty of space for the rest of the kit as well. I did trim some of the samples because they were ridiculously long but you really don't notice it when the kit is playing back.

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: 64Guitars on December 14, 2010, 11:51:44 AM

Quote from: guitarron on December 14, 2010, 10:01:40 AMthat's really not acceptable to me-that 13 seconds gets eaten up fast

The total duration of all 12 samples in the STD 1 drum kit is only 7.3 seconds. Based on this example, I don't think it should be too difficult to create a custom drum kit within the 13 second limit.

no offense -but the the br drums sound like, well... br drums-
partly because they are so truncated

i tried to do a whole set once i hardly got past the cymbals and the snare!

i suppose i could futz with it it to try to get it to fit-but rather not

i did have sucess with my latin kit -it was easy enough to do with 13 seconds, but i gave up trying to do a whole kit-i do my drums mostly outside the br realm
anyway

my point is that tone load -a really cool function is limited because of this-for my needs at least

Agree, the 13 seconds does create some constraints and potentially limits a great feature. But I'll be posting a track within the next week or two which will use a "real" kit via tone load, so I'd be interested to see what you think of that.

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: Ferryman on December 15, 2010, 02:55:57 AMBut I'll be posting a track within the next week or two which will use a "real" kit via tone load, so I'd be interested to see what you think of that.

Really looking forward to that Nigel !!

Quote from: Geir on December 15, 2010, 04:04:39 AMReally looking forward to that Nigel !!

Thanks - so am I as I haven't posted any music for months! Part of the issue was listening to 30-100 different drum sounds for each drum and deciding which one to pick! It took ages....

Cheers,

Nigel

Sounds interesting i will have to check this thread out !! like the sound of loading real drum samples !!

If I only weren't so impatient when I got a new song in the making ..... ;D

OK .. I do want to try this out too !! Maybe when we've got some experience in this, we could share our drum-sets. Is there an easy way to do this? Is all the samples stored in the same file?

Quote from: Geir on December 16, 2010, 11:48:31 AMMaybe when we've got some experience in this, we could share our drum-sets. Is there an easy way to do this? Is all the samples stored in the same file?

Yes, all custom samples for the 5 drumkits are stored in the file "DRUMKIT.BR0" which is found in each of the song folders. You can take a DRUMKIT.BR0 file from one song folder and copy it to another song folder, replacing that song's own DRUMKIT.BR0 file. This overwrites the file completely, so any custom drum kits that might have been created in the destination song folder will be lost, as they are replaced by the new custom drumkits.

The filesize of DRUMKIT.BR0 (2732 bytes) is the same on the BR-800, BR-600, and BR-864 (and probably the BR-900), so I'm guessing that they are compatible. The Micro BR and BR-532 don't support custom drumkits, so copying a DRUMKIT.BR0 file to the song folders of these recorders will do nothing.

I bought a bunch of commercial samples so I probably shouldn't share them, being sensitive about copyright (especially on this site!). Happy to say which ones I used if you like them though.

Cheers,

Nigel

Quote from: Ferryman on December 20, 2010, 07:14:05 AMI bought a bunch of commercial samples so I probably shouldn't share them, being sensitive about copyright (especially on this site!).

I hear you, and agree!!

It do raise some interesting issues tho. If we where to do a collab, you providing only the drums and me doing the rest, I guess that would be legal. But would you then have to do the final mix? I guess yes, tho it's quite absurd as the result would be the same as if you sendt me the ARRANGE file and the DRUMKIT file. I guess that's why we have lawyers  ;) 8)

That would be fine. The main issue with copyright infringements as I understand it is loss of earnings. If I gave you drum samples to use which I had paid for and you had not (through .BRO files), that would mean the owner of the copyright was losing money. But if we collaborated on a track on which I was providing the drums, it wouldn't matter who did the final mix as the owner of the copyright would not be losing money, as I was using drum samples that I had paid for in the track.

That's my view anyway!

BTW, after listening to my track, I have to admit that some of the cymbal samples do sound a little bit "cut off" where I edited the long tail offthem to get them in the 13 secs limitation. It's not bad but is noticeable if you listen for it.

Cheers,

Nigel

I have read this thread, and am showing my appreciation for the information here while simultaneously wasting your time if you're reading this post.

Quote from: Tony W on December 21, 2010, 05:51:57 PMI have read this thread, and am showing my appreciation for the information here

Thanks!

Quote from: Tony W on December 21, 2010, 05:51:57 PMwhile simultaneously wasting your time if you're reading this post.

You swine!

My solution to this limitation was to purchase a DR-880 Drum Machine.
No limitations, other than the end user's ability to program it. Also can do bass tracks.

Of course, the $400.00 price tag may put some folks off, but in my opinion it is worth it.

+1. The DR880 takes a good bit of time to learn but sounds great and is very flexible.
There are several ways to make up a track.
Have you tried using the USB as a MIDI to a DAW yet? I have to give that a try.
I've just been plugging it directly into the BR800 and then transferring to the DAW thru the BR Wave Converter.

I generate a drum track and record it direct into the eBand.
Then I save the WAV file out to a flash drive and transfer it to the computer for editing and synching.
Also insures I always have an unaltered backup of the track.

I installed a 16 gigabyte SD card in the eBand, so it can store about six thousand files.
When it fills up I remove it and install a new one. Good backup.

I have Midi gear but haven't used it in the recording setup yet.

There are two MAJOR limitations for me.

1. No Toneload function - you can't import your own drum kit.
2. No Pattern Play - there is no global tempo option.....

(I have a DR-880 for sale... CHEAP!....:-)

Chuck

Quote from: M_Glenn_M on December 05, 2011, 10:24:17 PM+1. The DR880 takes a good bit of time to learn but sounds great and is very flexible.
There are several ways to make up a track.
Have you tried using the USB as a MIDI to a DAW yet? I have to give that a try.
I've just been plugging it directly into the BR800 and then transferring to the DAW thru the BR Wave Converter.

Quote from: BuleriaChk on December 06, 2011, 10:46:12 AMThere are two MAJOR limitations for me.

1. No Toneload function - you can't import your own drum kit.
2. No Pattern Play - there is no global tempo option.....

Hey Chuck
 I assume you are talking about the BR800's limits because you can do these with the DR880. (Imports SMF 1)
Which makes me wonder why you would sell it?

I was wondering about that as well.

I get what I want from mine, and it never calls in sick.

I'm sure you will find a buyer.

Quote from: BuleriaChk on December 06, 2011, 10:46:12 AM1. No Toneload function - you can't import your own drum kit.

Quote from: M_Glenn_M on December 06, 2011, 11:31:24 AMyou can do these with the DR880. (Imports SMF 1)

Midi file import is not the same thing as Tone Load. Tone Load allows new drum and cymbal samples (instruments) to be loaded into a drum kit (from WAV files, for example). Midi files only tell the DR-880 which notes to play. They don't change the instrument sounds that are available in the DR-880. The DR-880 does allow you to create up to 100 custom drum kits, but they can only use the instrument sounds that are already available in the DR-880. It can't import new sounds. I think that was Chuck's point. He needs to be able to import his own samples and the DR-880 doesn't allow that. For the type of music Chuck plays (flamenco), I believe he needs a certain hand-clap sample that isn't available in the DR-880.

The DR-880 seems to have good midi support, so I suppose one solution to Chuck's problem would be to connect the DR-880 to another midi device which does allow custom samples. Perhaps something like the Korg microSAMPLER (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MicroSampler/). The DR-880 could then trigger samples stored on the microSAMPLER. But maybe that's more equipment than he wants to tote around.

I see.
I have a GR20 guitar synth that has 50 drum samples and MIDI in and out (No thru). What could I do if I hook that up to the drum machine?(MIDI in and out, No thru unless I can use the USB for that)
Play the DR880 sounds thru my MIDI guitar?
Play GR20 sounds thru the drum machine?
I'm just trying to get my head around the possibilities.

Quote from: BuleriaChk on December 06, 2011, 10:46:12 AMThere are two MAJOR limitations for me.

1. No Toneload function - you can't import your own drum kit.
2. No Pattern Play - there is no global tempo option.....

(I have a DR-880 for sale... CHEAP!....:-)

Chuck

Quote from: M_Glenn_M on December 05, 2011, 10:24:17 PM+1. The DR880 takes a good bit of time to learn but sounds great and is very flexible.
There are several ways to make up a track.
Have you tried using the USB as a MIDI to a DAW yet? I have to give that a try.
I've just been plugging it directly into the BR800 and then transferring to the DAW thru the BR Wave Converter.

If you have the dr.880 already and want drum tracks. Why would you want to sell it? Nothing comes close to it but a human drummer.  ???

Quote from: M_Glenn_M on December 06, 2011, 01:44:09 PMI have a GR20 guitar synth that has 50 drum samples and MIDI in and out (No thru). What could I do if I hook that up to the drum machine?(MIDI in and out, No thru unless I can use the USB for that)
Play the DR880 sounds thru my MIDI guitar?
Play GR20 sounds thru the drum machine?

Yes, you should be able to play DR-880 sounds from the GR-20, and GR-20 sounds from the DR-880. You might even be able to do both at the same time if they're communicating over separate midi channels.

Do you have a midi keyboard instrument? They usually have a lot more sound possibilites than the GR-20 or DR-880. You could, for example, connect the GR-20 to your midi keyboard and play the keyboard's sounds from your guitar. Or, with a midi interface such as the M-Audio MIDISport 1X1 you were planning to buy, you could load VST instrument sounds into SONAR and play them with your guitar.

I'm not a piano player but my wife does have an EP70 with In and out.
I don't think it has many sound options.
I did connect it one time and it was able to play the GR20 sounds which was cool.
Again I'd rather use the guitar as I know how to play it.

64Guitars has it right.

Because I want my own sounds, not canned drum tracks, and I want different patterns to sync to my tempo so I can play them live.

(For a REAL thorough discussion of these limitations, check out the DR-880 user group on Yahoo....)
Actually, a netbook and Ableton Live is a far better solution for me than the DR-880...
And if I need the pads, I can hook up my padKontrol....

The true solution was the BR series with the ToneLoad function, and now I just use the BR-80 with loops created in Ableton Live in E-Band mode (I have a lot of Middle Eastern loops which are fun to add to the basic flamenco rhythm backing tracks....)

Chuck

Quote from: Gnasty on December 06, 2011, 01:54:09 PMIf you have the dr.880 already and want drum tracks. Why would you want to sell it? Nothing comes close to it but a human drummer.  ???