Basic Ways to Record Electric Guitar

[MDV]

I find them crippling

With all due respect here MDV, of all the things you have said here (and some really fantastic tips about recording guitars in this post), this one statement of yours summarizes why a few of us got all defensive and started defending our love of "stand-alone" recorders, "I find them crippling".  It is clear that you think we are limiting ourselves (in a major crippling way) for not getting on board with the whole computer/DAW/plug-ins/bla-bla-bla.
Just saying,
Peace,
Dave.

+ lots of stuff about why you personally like standalones over an interface and daw based system that you seem to think I havent heard before.

Ok, right

A: That doesnt make any sense. I mentioned them as one thing of many, extolled their virtues, which have a large overlap in my OP with what you said here and you pick up on the '*I find them* crippling' remark three posts later and retcon the whole thing as me going on a crusade against standalones, when in fact I did no such thing.

I pointed out downsides to all the methods I mentioned. Because they all have downsides. If you wanted to interpret me with that tone in an unbiassed fashion then you should also think that I think that modellers and VSTs are pale immitations of micing a good amp, and micing an amp is a collosal anachronistic waste of time and conclude that I think we just shouldnt bother recording anything because none of the methods available give perfect results on your first try.

B: What I did was post 9 ways. that guitars can be effectively recorded. 10 and half if you include the ones I mainly use (recording just a DI only counts as a half!), 12 and half if you add the ones that I alluded to at the end. Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

Now, I've said this before and you soundly ignored it: The reason I posted that was in case anyone would find that information usefull and benefit from an introduction to how wide and varied their options are, and explore options that suit their needs, practical, financial and sonic.

You've found yours. Great, carry on, nothing to see here.

Sorry, but youre seeing a message thats not there, imagining insults that dont exist, then taking offhand comments out of context to support it.

For example, I said that I find standalones crippling.
I do.
I want to be able to zoom in so far that the whole width of my monitor is looking at 10ms of two tracks and move one by, say, 3ms to correct phase problems (or create them if I so desire).
I want to slice a track into 15 parts and sequence them however I choose, with whatever fades and envelopes I want.
I want to experiment with song structures by recording 1 minute seconds of guitar, spending 10 minutes programming some drums and then building 10 different basic structures for a 5 minute track from it, before commiting to recording the whole thing
If a notes out of time but otherwise perfect an an otherwise perfect performance, I want to slip edit it into place, not play the whole thing again
I want to use 4 different kinds of compressor and six eqs, depending on circumstances, sometimes on the same track.
I want to automate volume, panning, effects and I want to do it with millisecond accuracy.
I want to create 3 duplicate tracks, bandpass them differently and reverse the pahse of one, compress another for parallel compression or sidechain compressors in a specific frequency range to change the sound of one other track.
I want to see spectrographic analyses of tracks to home in exactly on problems I'm hearing, and I want to see it of any given combination of tracks at any given time.
I want access to databases of thousands of samples, dozens of gigabytes that I can sequence in midi for my drums.
I want to have full control over the level of every drum and the bleed between every mic
If I want to move a snare hit 15ms off the grid and change its velocity compared to the ones around it then I need that facility.

I do all those things and much more on a regular basis, and so I find standalone recorders crippling. I dont find this onerous as many do, I enjoy it. HOWEVER. I didnt say "They are" crippling. I said "I find them" crippling, because they dont fit how I work or give me the facilities I want. I'm well aware that thats not the case for many people and thats why I included them in the guide in the first place - they are a perfectly valid option, depending what you want to do.

But, if you want to make the trade off of the most powerfull recording methods available today for the ease of hitting 'on' and 'record' and sticking an MBR on your coffee table, for the sake of boot up time and a few mouse clicks then thats entirely your perogative. I'm well aware that many people have that preference.

Y'know what?

Theres nothing wrong with it.

Its fine. If youre happy with that then theres nothing I want to say to talk you out of it, its no skin off my nose whatsoever (aside from the fact that theres nothing I *could* say that would convince you youre missing out on anything :lol:), and that was never what I tried to do.

On the other hand, people that do want to use any tool that is within their grasp may find the guide useful. 

"may i also add that i am not blinkered to looking into different ways of doing things i am open to all avenues of getting my ideas down but i want instant gratification i am a bit impatient that way, my little box  gives me that, without having to reconfigure it every time i choose to use it."

See, thats what I'm talking about. Great stuff. Use both, use all, use whatever fits your needs for whatever it is youre doing. I have often considered getting a standalone for throwing down ideas as they happen (I havent, because opening up one of my template projects is too easy, or just writing the thing down (what ever happened to pen and paper? Hugely flexible system with its own set of as yet digitally unreplicated strengths!) is too helpfull).

[Oldrottenhead]

I have often considered getting a standalone for throwing down ideas as they happen (I havent, because opening up one of my template projects is too easy, or just writing the thing down (what ever happened to pen and paper?

you should consider it, and as for pen and paper i am never without them, they are essential tools.

how do you get your tone mdv.

[MDV]

I have often considered getting a standalone for throwing down ideas as they happen (I havent, because opening up one of my template projects is too easy, or just writing the thing down (what ever happened to pen and paper?

you should consider it, and as for pen and paper i am never without them, they are essential tools.

how do you get your tone mdv.

I may well, but its always "How can this £#### I have spare for gear be spent to give me tools that best improve my ability to produce music?" and replication of current abilities always comes in last place to getting one of the many things that gives me something I cant currently do.

Maybe one day.

I either:
Mic up on of my amps (the dinosaur that I am! Well, 28 actaully, but mixing the tried and tested with the new and flash is often the best way; like I say, all the tools in your grasp, and whatever works best for you)
Or
Line in the preamp of one of my modelling amps and add IRs. This is usually intended to be a stopgap, placeholder, but I have been quite content with the sound in the past and stuck with it

Most often I use the last-best mic placement and settings on one of my main amps, track that and a DI right off the guitar and then reamp it later if I think I need a different tone.

I've been known to dabble with modellers, but I dont have any anymore

All that will invariably go into either my RME fireface 800 or Focusrite Pro40 and Reaper.

Those tracks are well recorded, btw 

[Oldrottenhead]

RME fireface 800 http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/rme-fireface-800-firewire-audio-interface--21346
Focusrite Pro40
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&q=buy+Focusrite+Pro40&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=10906280621070511296&ei=wo75TJDYDYGFhQfux4CKCQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEAQ8wIwBA#

reaper
http://macaudiopro.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=905308

[Wartime Novelty]

Hmm this is all a bit out of hand.

Firstly i could see that MDV wasn't trying to force anything onto anyone but putting up prices of things he owns is really a bit underhand and isn't really going to prove anything other than the fact that he has worked hard for what he's got and it really shows in his recordings.

I must add that he also does production work on a semi proffesional level for other bands so if they came into his studio and said lets get cracking and he turned the amp on and put a MBR on the table i'm pretty sure they would just walk straight out of there.

All he was saying is each to there own but this is what's out there.

Im now going to add a list of my equipment prices as i record in pretty much the same way as MDV just not to the same standards due to my equipment limitations.

Line 6 Toneport GX (uses as my interface and also for DI tracks) £59 new from rocking rooster

Shure SM57 Mic - £89 new from Rockshack

Reaper (i noticed this is the price you sorely missed out) £25.34 from cockos and is actually free to use as long as you like anyway without buying a licence

also i have an Art Tube MP1 Mic Pre that was £15 that i dont use

so £173.34 is all it takes(not including mic pre as i dont use it), it doesn't have to be super high quality stuff just for your own stuff
but when you are producing other peoples stuff you definitely do need to take a jump up to the higher tier

[Bluesberry]

I appreciate the fact that MDV is a "semi-professional" recording engineer and has produced professional level stuff for real bands.  I appreciate that he has taken the time to grace us with some of his hard earned knowledge.  I appreciate that he is very knowledgeable and has a professional level studio in his house.  That is very admirable and I have gear-envy.  In this day and age it is possible to have the gear that would make you a full professional studio, it is all available to the average guy for not too much money.

It seems in these kinds of arguments there are two distinct outlooks.  There is the recording engineer type, who is chasing after making his recordings sound as good as a professional studio, his tracks would match sonically the songs you hear on commercial CDs.  This person is chasing after perfect recordings, they may not even play an instrument themselves, or write any music, typically they record other people a lot, and do it very well, some even get paid for their skills with recording.  This type of person needs all the latest studio-ready gear, it is essential equipment.  The actual music is less important than the technique of recording this music.  This type is chasing after "proper" recording, analyzing sound, frequency, getting down to 3ms to correct phase problems.  This type is a sound analyist, sound engineer type.

The other type of person is a singer/songwriter, musician, aging rock star, guy who was in a band and now is settled down and wants to record some of the songs in his head.  There are a lot of this type on here, mostly non-professional, the whole thing is a hobby mainly, but a very serious hobby.  This type of person is chasing after the perfect song, the perfect lyric, the perfect vocal, the perfect solo, trying to be the best musician they can be.  The intricate details of recording are not the primary focus, the song and performance are, and capturing the song/performance in a reasonably good sounding Demo for posterity.  This type of person likes using the "stand-alone" because they are the best thing to use when you are chasing the muse, they are essential equipment.  The actual recording technique is less important than the song and performance.  This type is putting all their energy into chasing after inspiration, pulling that inspiration out into the world, getting it recorded as easily as possible while still getting a pretty darn good sounding demo at the end.  This type is an artist, musician, singer, songwriter type.  This type doesn't have time or energy for all that detailed analysis, because that is not where the song lives.

Sometimes we have both types rolled into the same person, not too often but there are a few, Bosko Schwartz comes to mind as does Ferryman and AndyR.  Usually it is one side of the equation or the other.  This site is predominantly made up from the artist/musician/singer/songwriter side.  The two sides of the argument will never understand where the other side is coming from.  The songwriter/musician looks over at the recording engineer and thinks they are wasting their time with all that gear, just write some songs man, get them out, chase that muse.  The recording Engineer looks over at the songwriter/musician and says, why don't you upgrade your gear, you could make your songs sound so much better (notice that it is sound better, not write a better song) if you only had this, that, and the other thing.  The songwriter/musician says, I would rather spend my gear money on instruments, a new guitar, a new synth, I'll make do with my one "stand-alone"recorder, it is working for me.  And on it goes.  Classic argument, going on since all this fancy gear became available.  Lets just agree to disagree and move along, back to our shared love for music.  songwriter/musicians and recording engineers both have their place in this musical society of ours. 

[Tony W]

Most often, its not what you say, its how the message is conveyed. Certain phasing could and ultimately should have been avoided.

(but in my not so humble opinion the only way to get something REALLY good)

That is certainly going to trigger an emotional response. Why not just say, If you're reading this, I find you inferior.

There would not have been a defensive position on stand alone recorders if they were not described as limited. A few of the tidbits of information that was given were inaccurate. For instance you're not limited to an onboard mic on ANY stand alone recorder. I have personally used an SM-57 with my Micro BR. Of course I used a $60 bheringer mixer, but it can be done easily. The standalone recorders have multiple inputs. ** Before anyone points out that an interface is required, consider how signals ultimately get to a DAW ** The argument is invalid. We all have more gear for what we do.

Of course MDV didn't know in advance that this site used to be called microrecorders.org, then bossbr.net prior to being named songcrafters. If he had, his phrasing may have been quite a bit different. Another factor that would have helped is look at a lot of the informational information regarding posters. Take our signatures for example. Take a look at the song information given by a few people.

This is what it is, a collection of great information, derailed by poor choices in wording. It's too bad, because this could have turned into a very insightful thread.

To add to my point.... I recorded this Just over a year ago. No amount of equipment, software, or gear is going to make this listenable. Musically it's appalling, and I cringe hearing it myself.

The Point: Shit in = Shit out
               Great in = Great out no matter what is used.
crap

[MDV]

_a long post rebutting various distortions and errors was here_

This is pointless.

Thanks for coming to my defense wartime novelty (Except; semi-pro? Semi? Pro paid to do a job and does it to a competitive standard. I do this professionally  Just not on a very grand scale, or as well as many others....ah well, always learning; I have clients on and lined up, must be doing something right), but obviously they're content with what they have, and since its been here a while I suppose no one stumbled along to whom it was usefull (except Tony, but even he seems to have intentionally limited himself - please dont mate! Oh, and if youre going to quote-mine that, then Joey Sturgis would say I'm a moron. He makes multi-million selling albums with POD Farm on the guitars. I'm fine with him inevitably thinking I'm an idiot, I mean, hes a far better AE than I am, but they're both just opinions ).

I could go on and on, but its starting to become obvious that its pointless: you've all decided what my intentions were when I originally posted, regardless of what I actually wrote (by gosh they'll find a way to pick bits out that make them look right, even if its just 10 words out of, what, 2000?)

I'd particularly love to argue bluesberrys arbitrary and imaginary distinction betwee an engineer type and old musician type, because its utter bollocks - everything an AE does, all the polishing of the sound (or lack of if the case requires that, as with diamonds and rust that I put up here a while ago) is *in service of the song*. Everything we do is to tailor and enhance the emotional impact of the music in whatever its intended fashion. Including, and sometimes especially, the minute details.

All audio engineers, all producers are musicians. We all invariably play a musical instrument, but we play many other instruments that make all others sound better. We play dynamic range, transient shaping, power spectra, harmonic content, comb filtering, stereo width, apparent depth, spatial relationships and so on and so forth to enhance everything else and make multiple sounds work as one. There is science to it (my degree and first profession, chronologically at least, is physics, and that made it much easier to adapt to AE, because I understand how sound works), but make no mistake; its as much an art as playing a guitar.

In my case, and very many others, the development of that art stemed from, and remains in service to the other, the difference is the dedication with which you want to persue it. And I'm not talking about spending money on gear, I'm talking about developing understanding of how sound and musical sounds in particular work to enhance the impact of your own music. The gear will just follow as you grow into new methods and skills. My sig on most forums reads "Knowledge is your most valuable tool, all others are useless without it", words I work and live by (along with my one musical rule: "If it sounds good, it is good", and I dont care how I get things to sound good, or how much the gear cost or whatever).

Anyway, replaced one long post that I deleted due to futility (just going to be misquoted again, more little traps set to misrepresent where I'm coming from) with another for you to do the same anyway. Carry on!

[Tony W]

The point my fellow posters are making is simple, this is a songwriters site. the focus here is on songwriting first, production second. Perhaps you should consider that before taking such great offense to every statement including the one person who took the time to defend you. I can't comprehend why you would feel the need to insult him along with everyone else.

Ok, kudos, you're a pro AE. We're not, and we're happy with it. I'd rather be plucking strings, pounding keys, etc than tweaking, its why I got into music. That's my thing, along with many others. Pretentiously smug comments on how we; the majority of posters on this forum does things really isn't going to have a good outcome, and it's bordering on ignorance. You are obviously not ignorant so this is a perfect opportunity to stop.

You are churning out a quality product, for that you should be happy, not feel forced to defend yourself. I'd have to say that many people here are churning out quality products themselves, and in turn, shouldn't feel the need to defend themselves as well.

If you can't grasp the simplicity of this post, then I'm afraid there's nothing more I can provide for you.

[Oldrottenhead]

oh the irony is the guy that made this post has engineered in abbey road professionally lmao.

Thought I might throw it up in here because it seems theres a heavy reliance on standalone multitrack devices on this forum. I find that an oddity. There are many, many very powerfull and convenient ways to record a guitar

   I have stood on clifftops to record my guitar onto my MBR. I have stood in friends houses to record vocals. I have stood in every room of my house searching for the right acoustics in accordance to what I'm recording. I've stood in the streets of various towns and cities recording 'ambience' onto my MBR. I've stood on beaches recording waves with horses gallpoing past through the wet sand. And this thing slips into my overcoat pocket and runs on batteries. I can't think of anything more convenient than standing in the shitter and singing my little heart out...


                                                      henwrench