New BR model - the BR-800

[BuleriaChk]

No, my intent is to use the BR-800 as an audio interface AND control surface simultaneously for live performance.
I'm using it with a Toshiba netbook, and for my application seems to work fine (cpu is aroung 68%, but it isn't choking, and latency seems fine even going through the Ableton effects.  Of course, I'm only using Live - but Guitar Rig 4 was working OK too)

Update:  I had the rec level all the way down (it came that way).  Now it works as expected.

Update: Works great!  Ableton Live has a great reverb patch and acoustic effects patch I can use by turning the BR-800 effects off.  Or I can turn the Live effects off and use the BR-800.  And I can mix the dry and effected signals by using the A/B slider.  So I have channel 1 and 2 slider controlling the volumes of the dry/effect tracks, track 3 controlling the A/B relative input, track 4 the volume of my bass drum in the drum rack,  track 5/6 controlling the volume of my basic drum loops (Flamenco rhythms), and tracks 7/8 controlling overlay loops (middle eastern), and the master controlling the volume of the master track.  (I don't think the rhythm track is midi assignable).

So that gives me a control interface for controlling Ableton Live, as well as a stand-alone unit with all my Flamenco tracks on the SDI card.  Plus a lot of other things, so I guess I have to backtrack and become a Boss believer yet once again....(sigh)

[masterguerrero]

Hello from Portugal...this is my first post here and i hope you can help...

Well...finally i read all of this thread...and i have to say i am still confused in some aspects of BR-800.
I'm not an expert and there are many technical questions that i do not understand completely in this thread but i'll do my best.

For some of you this is an awesome product, for others not...

I am thinking of buying one..and use it to record some original songs and for practice purposes (i think it fits well for this).

However, i have a couple of questions.

1. Do BR-800 can be use as a DAW with cubase, pro tools, logic and others, or only with sonar?

2. I understand that there is a editing issue in this product for all that i've read, however i read in sweetwater reviews (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BR800: "...after talking to BOSS tech support, they told me that a new firmware update will soon be released to correct this oversight."
I understand that came out a new firmware update for BR-800 (System Update Version 1.06 - www.rolandus.com), is this editing issue, or any of the above cons have been fixed?

3. Having in mind the sound quality, do you think is best purchasing a BR-1200 or a BR-1600 (despite the money difference)? Aren't these BR's kinda obsolete in terms of sound quality and/or flexibility and user-friendly?

4. Last week i saw Alex Hutchings's workshop here in Portugal mainly demonstrating boss product where he used BR-800 (which in that hands all sound great) and the new MICRO BR-80. Do you think this is best than BR-800?

5. Can you export also the rhythm tracks for sonar or other editing software?

Hope you can help choosing my recorder.
Great forum.

Thanx

[64Guitars]

Hello from Portugal...this is my first post here and i hope you can help...

Hello, and welcome to Songcrafters.

1. Do BR-800 can be use as a DAW with cubase, pro tools, logic and others, or only with sonar?

According to the manual, it should work with any DAW that supports the Mackie control surface. There should be a setting for "control surface type" in your DAW. If Mackie is one of the available choices, then the BR-800 should work with it. However, I haven't yet heard of anyone trying this and I don't have a BR-800 so I can't confirm it. Maybe if one of our BR-800 users has tried this with a DAW other than SONAR, they'll let us know here.

2. I understand that there is a editing issue in this product for all that i've read, however i read in sweetwater reviews (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BR800: "...after talking to BOSS tech support, they told me that a new firmware update will soon be released to correct this oversight."
I understand that came out a new firmware update for BR-800 (System Update Version 1.06 - www.rolandus.com), is this editing issue, or any of the above cons have been fixed?

Last March, the Roland Germany website stated that Roland Japan will be releasing an update to add the new editing features and more. See this message:

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=8280.msg142889#msg142889

It originally said the update would be available in April. When it wasn't released, they changed it to "Coming Soon". As far as I know, it's stilll planned for release. It's just a question of when.

Just so you understand the issue, all BR models until the BR-800 have had the ability to copy or move portions of a track to another track or another section of the same track. They could also exchange a pair of tracks. Since the BR-800 has great computer connectivity and includes SONAR LE, Roland decided that these features were no longer necessary because you could do all of that and more in SONAR. And the BR-800 still has more basic editing capabilities if you need them. It can copy or erase entire tracks, but not portions of tracks. For some users (including me), that's probably okay since a DAW is better for detailed editing anyway. But many BR-800 purchasers were angry that those features were omitted from the BR-800 and complained. So Roland is expected to add those features into the BR-800 with the next update. I don't know what version number they will give to it (probably 2.0, I think), but it is not version 1.06. That version only corrects a problem with the USB.

3. Having in mind the sound quality, do you think is best purchasing a BR-1200 or a BR-1600 (despite the money difference)? Aren't these BR's kinda obsolete in terms of sound quality and/or flexibility and user-friendly?

Sound quality is about the same in all of the BR models. The difference is really only in the features. The BR-1200 and BR-1600 use a hard drive for storage instead of a memory card. This may have some advantages for some people. It's perhaps more convenient because all of your songs are always available. Just turn on the BR and you're ready to work on any of your songs. But it has some disadvantages too. Hard drives can be more prone to failure. And if the hard drive dies, you lose everything unless you have it all backed up. Memory cards are usually smaller, so you have to backup more often, and your songs will usually be spread over several memory cards. And hard drives can be sensitive to rough handling. So they're not as suitable as a portable recorder. Personally, I prefer memory card recorders over hard drive recorders, especially for people who will be taking their recorder to gigs, rehearsals, etc. But there's no clear winner. Some folks prefer hard drive recorders.

4. Last week i saw Alex Hutchings's workshop here in Portugal mainly demonstrating boss product where he used BR-800 (which in that hands all sound great) and the new MICRO BR-80. Do you think this is best than BR-800?

It depends what you want and what features are important to you. For me, the BR-800 would probably be the best choice. But I have different needs and preferences than most BR users. Many people like the small size of the BR-80. You can put it in your pocket, and you can hold it in your hand like a microphone while singing. But I don't sing and portability is of no interest to me, so the small size of the BR-80 is actually a drawback to me. I'd rather have a larger recorder. One thing that's new in the BR-80 is USB 2.0. Up until now, all BR recorders, including the BR-800, have used USB 1.1 which is very slow for file transfers. USB 2.0 is much faster. Still, you can always use a USB 2.0 memory card reader and put the BR-800's memory card into it when you want to transfer files. Because it's USB 2.0, it will be just as fast as the BR-80. The only difference is the slight inconvenience of having to take the memory card out of the BR-800 when you want to transfer files.

One thing I have no doubt of is that the BR-80 is the best recorder available in its size. So, if the small size is important to you, then the BR-80 is a great recorder and I highly recommend it.

5. Can you export also the rhythm tracks for sonar or other editing software?

You can export drum tracks from the BR-800 as WAV files, but you can't export them as MIDI. That's unfortunate. MIDI Export would be a very useful feature. You can, however, import MIDI files into the BR-800's drum machine. That means you can use SONAR or any other DAW to create your drum tracks, then import them into the BR-800. But you can't export your drum tracks from the BR-800 back to SONAR (except as WAV files).

We can hope that that might change with the new update. The Roland Germany site says the update will include drum pattern editing features, so it's possible that it could include MIDI export. But I doubt it because no other BR models have that feature either. Still, we can hope. 

[BuleriaChk]

A couple of additional points:

1. The micro br doesn't have toneload or rhythm editing, so you are stuck with what Boss engineers thought were important.  YMMV...

2. The BR-800 interface works fine with Ableton Live, as I noted above, so I imagine any DAW with MIDI learn would work..... you just need to learn how your DAW is set up for midi...

3. I think the guitar models/effects are improved over earlier versions - they are supposed to be based on the GT-10;  I just got my GT-10 (again) and did some comparisons, and they sound exactly the same, as advertised...
(The earlier BR series were no slouches, though... based on the GT-6 and the GT-Pro which were industry standards....)

4. Supposedly the BR-80 also has GT-10 effects; I'll believe it when I hear it... but without toneload, it is seriously hamstrung...

[64Guitars]

1. The micro br doesn't have toneload or rhythm editing, so you are stuck with what Boss engineers thought were important.  YMMV...

Just to clarify, we're talking about the BR-80 here rather than the original Micro BR. I think it's too early to say for certain that it doesn't have toneload. We'll have to wait until the manual is available to know for sure (unless you've heard something direct from Roland or a reliable source?). I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest that it does have toneload, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't.

I think by lack of "rhythm editing", you must have meant that it doesn't allow custom patterns. It definitely has rhythm editing, and it's improved over previous BRs because the user now specifies step length instead of starting measure. That will make arrangement editing much easier. As for the lack of custom patterns, I suspect that you're right. I haven't seen any signs of that ability in any of the screenshots. But, again, it's too early to know for sure. Need to see the manual. In any case, it does support standard midi file import, so you can make any patterns you like (including non-4/4 time signatures) using a DAW and load the finished SMF into the BR-80. The only question is whether you'd then be able to edit it further inside the BR-80 (I'm guessing no, but we need to see the manual).

[BuleriaChk]

I agree, we'll have to wait for the manual for the BR-80.  But I did read the manual for the JS-8, and the eband description doesn't seem to allow pattern looping (you would have to import the midi as a complete song), although I can't imagine how it makes sense not to be able to listen to patterns....

The lack of midi is inexcusable in a unit that is supposed to interface with a DAW; at the very least, there should be an export midi feature in the rhythm editor.  And preferably a midi clock to sync with the DAW.

But if the BR-80 has toneload, I'm in.  It just doesn't look like it from the eBand descrioption in the JS-8 manual....

That said, the effects in the BR-800 are excellent, indeed.....

[masterguerrero]

Finally i found a forum that gave me a excellent feedback!!!
64guitars and BuleriaChk...Thank you very much for your replies... You help me a lot with your clarification and enlightenment on my questions. I could not ask for more...
I think i'm gonna order BR-800 tomorrow, besides i got a friend working on a music store that can take 25% off the price of BR-800! I'm gonna take it...

two final questions:

- The BR-800 has "rhythm editing" right? i mean, make any patterns you like (including non-4/4 time signatures)?

- Can you program different parts with different bars with the rhythm section? (ie. intro - verse - chorus) Or you'll need pc connection for this?

I will be all eyes and ears on this forum...great stuff here!

Keep up the great work...
Thanx again

[BuleriaChk]

Yes, there is a rhythm editor that runs on the pc that allows you to create patterns and even use your own sounds (in five drumkits).  You can run the rhythm editor directly connected to the BR-800, or use the rhythm editor independently and copy the directory over later (the "ROLAND" directory should be in the root directory of Drive C:)

You can then arrange these patterns into a song (but each song has a single time signature, although odd time signatures are allowed).  Again, you can run the rhythm editor on the BR-800 or the pc.

You can import MIDI patterns you create in a separate DAW into the BR-800, but you can't export them again, so best to create and save in your DAW if you might want to alter them later.

[64Guitars]

The lack of midi is inexcusable in a unit that is supposed to interface with a DAW; at the very least, there should be an export midi feature in the rhythm editor.  And preferably a midi clock to sync with the DAW.

Yeah. The thing that gets me is that midi is probably one of those features that would cost peanuts to include. I suppose the large midi connectors would be a problem on such a small recorder. Where would they put them? But they could get around that with a small connector and an adapter cable terminated with standard midi connectors. Like some sound cards do with the joystick port and a midi adapter cable.

As for midi clock, I think I heard in one of the demo videos that it does have midi clock. I'll try to find it and post it here. Of course, it's possible that the presenter was mistaken (or maybe I am).

[BuleriaChk]

Or at least midi via USB.....  no connectors needed....
I've not seen mdi clock anywhere myself; although you can use the BR-800 as an interface (it does have machine control)... I'll check later...

Not to mention an editor/librarian for the GT-10 effects..... (I know, I know,....(sigh)

UPDATE: I don't see a sync signal unless I'm in USB interface mode (in Ableton Live), but it doesn't seem to do much.... But I'll investigate further (I do see a sync trigger if I'm using the BR-800 as a control surface)....