New BR model - the BR-800

[Geir]

this unit is getting more and more tempting !!

[BuleriaChk]

For an electric guitar, the GT-10 upgrade is significant ... it is probably worthwhile.

For Acoustic Guitar use as a live front end, the upgrade is hard to justify.  I am seriously considering cancelling my pre-order.

1. Can't play drum sounds live (no buttons for drum kit).  I sometimes use the buttons to beat out examples of Flamenco rhythms for students.....

2. Tap Tempo can't be used to "target" the tempo field (moving the cursor is a real PITA in current BR's, since it is difficult to tell where it is on the LCD).  One would think that if one tap the tempo button at least once, one is trying to adjust tempo.

3. No Pan button for Rhythm track (why not?) Setting sounds in editor to individual hits is a PITA.

4. No EQ for Rhythm track (the kluge as been discussed above - the insert effect can only be assigned EITHER to the input or the Rhythm)  Track EQ cannot be assigned to the Rhythm Track.
WTF? The only way around this seems to be to pan the Rhythm track left (via individual tones) and to pan the input Right, and then use the EQ of the AMP (e.g., my Fishman SA-220) to adust the overall EQ curve.... (I usually have to adjust the Bass drum, depending on Amp, gig location, etc.)

[BuleriaChk]

Update:

I did cancel my order. For me, the upgrades are not worth the money, since I don't use the newer GT-10 effects live, and have over-duplicated all the functions in computer-based DAW's and interfaces. 

In addition to the caveats above:

For live use, the touchscreen intefaces is an accident waiting to happen (read the warning documentation!).

I STILL think that these units should have a dedicated control for tempo control for playing patterns...

Too bad, but at least I can now consider spending my money on another controller for Live, or tne MPC 500.  Oh well....... so near, and yet so far....

[64Guitars]

For Acoustic Guitar use as a live front end, the upgrade is hard to justify.  I am seriously considering cancelling my pre-order.

Yes, but to be fair to Roland, I don't think they ever intended for the BR series to be used in that way. It's designed to be an all-in-one recorder, primarily for guitarists. And all of the BRs suit that purpose wonderfully, especially the BR-800.

1. Can't play drum sounds live (no buttons for drum kit).  I sometimes use the buttons to beat out examples of Flamenco rhythms for students.....

Yes. It seems they've moved a lot of functionality to the computer (more on this in my review of the BR-800 manual, coming soon). A lot of the drum programming must be done in the BR Rhythm Editor software. It is no longer possible to create or edit custom patterns or drum kits in the BR-800 itself. However, you can still create and edit arrangements in the BR-800, and the patterns and drum kits you create with the BR Rhythm Editor can be loaded into the BR-800 and used in arrangements.

3. No Pan button for Rhythm track (why not?) Setting sounds in editor to individual hits is a PITA.

Because panning splits a mono signal into the two channels of a stereo input and allows you to adjust how much of that mono signal should go to the left channel and how much should go to the right. But the Rhythm track is not mono; it's stereo. You can't pan a stereo signal. You can only pan the mono sources that were used to create that stereo signal. That's why you can pan the individual drum and cymbal sounds within a drum kit. They are mono, so you can split them into the left and right channels of the stereo drum kit.

4. No EQ for Rhythm track (the kluge as been discussed above - the insert effect can only be assigned EITHER to the input or the Rhythm)  Track EQ cannot be assigned to the Rhythm Track.
WTF? The only way around this seems to be to pan the Rhythm track left (via individual tones) and to pan the input Right, and then use the EQ of the AMP (e.g., my Fishman SA-220) to adust the overall EQ curve.... (I usually have to adjust the Bass drum, depending on Amp, gig location, etc.)

I understand why this is important to you for your live use of the BR as an effects processor and drum machine. But, again, that's not really what it was designed for. I don't think that most BR users would have much use for EQ on the drums. And it's easy enough to tweak the drum kits with the BR Rhythm Editor software. I realise that's too time-consuming for your live usage, but it seems reasonable for the average home recordist.

[BuleriaChk]

I agree with you, for the most part.  For many users, the upgrade will be worthwhile, and I am grateful to Roland for the BR600/900CD.

My solution is to pan loop effects (reverb) to the left to use for guitar, and all rhythm voices to the left except the Kick (which is usually the problem - either too loud or too soft depending on the amp).  I can then tweak the right channel of my SA-220 for the bass drum, after adjusting the guitar/rhythm track in the left channel (or aux, if I want to use the insert effects of the BR's)

I can, of course, load a different sample into  the kit (not in the BR-800); I have several samples at different volumes available on the card).  Nevertheless, this is all a real PITA, and could be resoved very simply with a velocity adjustment for each voice (the BA-800 editor doesn't have this either)....

  I would REALLY like a velocity adjustment on each drumkit voice, of course, which would really solve my problem.

Nevertheless, the BR series is the closest solution for me, and is at least doable at the expense of considerable time sampling/resampling, tweaking, and live performance confusion under pressure.  My dream machine would be that available in my laptop with Live, the nanoKontro, and LPK25 to trigger loops.

[BuleriaChk]

Actually, I just realized that I can adjust level for each rhythm voice by using only the left output of the BR into the SoloAmp; I then pan the guitar/voioce input(s) to the left channel, set all the rhythm voices hard right, and then bring each voice in by adjusting the pan for them to the left. 

This is still a PITA, but none of the effects I use are stereo, so it doesn't matter too much.  Still, it would have been SO easy for Roland to put a velocity adjustment for each voice...

Maybe you have a better suggestion; I'm all ears.....

[64Guitars]

I spent yesterday studying the BR-800 manual and making lots of notes "for the love of you people" (as Regis Philbin likes to say). 

Here are my observations about the BR-800 compared to the BR-600 (mostly) and other BRs:

• Can be powered by the USB connection (no batteries or AC adapter needed when using USB).
  
  
• No Input Sensitivity control for Guitar/Bass input. That could be a problem with hot or active pickups and piezos as the guitar's output might over-drive the BR-800's input and cause clipping distortion. Of course, you can turn down the volume control on your guitar to eliminate the clipping but that will affect its tone. Shouldn't be a problem with most guitars having conventional passive magnetic pickups.
  
  
• No Bounce Mode. Instead, Mastering Mode is used for bouncing. Mastering Effects are enabled or disabled with the MASTER FX button below the Master fader. This actually makes good sense. In the BR-600 and other BRs, Bounce Mode and Mastering Mode are pretty much the same thing except that Mastering Mode includes the Mastering Tool Kit while Bounce Mode does not. So, combining them into a single mode with the option to toggle the mastering effects on and off makes sense. Although, I think "Mixdown Mode" would have been a better name.
  
  
• No Undo/Redo button. Instead, the Undo/Redo feature is accessed from the Menu.
  
  
• No longer includes Doubling as a Loop Effect. Only has Reverb and Chorus or Delay.
  
  
• Includes two additional insert effect patch banks - 4INPUT and 8TRACK COMP. The 4INPUT bank has one algorithm which can be applied to each of the four mic inputs (independently, I assume).
  
  
  -[Low Cut]-[Compressor/Limiter]-[Equalizer]-[Noise Suppressor]-
  
  The 8TRACK COMP bank has one algorithm which provides an independent compressor/limiter for each of the four mono tracks and two stereo tracks.
  
  
• The BR-800 has fewer patch locations per bank than the BR-600/864/900, though more than the Micro BR.
  
  
  Bank          Micro BR    BR-600    BR-864    BR-900    BR-800
  Guitar           80         99        99        99        80
  Mic              20         40        40        40        30
  Line             10         50        50        50        25
  Simul            10         50        50        50        15
  4INPUT           --         --        --        --         5
  8TRACK COMP      --         --        --        --         5
  
  Total:          120        239       239       239       160
  
  
  
• Includes a distortion effect (finally!). Some of the classic pedals it emulates are the Boss BD-2, Boss OD-1, Boss OD-2, Boss MT-2, Ibanez TS808 (Tube Screamer), Proco RAT, Marshall Guv'nor, MXR distortion+, Fuzz Face, Acetone Fuzz, Electro-Harmonix Big Muff π, and Tech21 Sansamp Bass Driver DI.
  
  
• Includes some new modulation effects (Guitar Simulator, Sitar Simulator, Rotary, Uni-Vibe, Ring Modulator, Doubling Delay).
  
  
• Amp and Speaker Simulator effects are now combined into a single Amp effect.
  
  
• Tremolo and Pan are now separate effects under Modulation. In the BR-600, etc., they're a single effect called Tremolo/Pan with a Mode parameter to choose between them.
  
  
• No De-esser effect.
  
  
• No Voice Transformer effect, but there are new TONE/SFX and DOUBLE/HARMONY vocal effects.
  
  
• There is no longer a Foot Volume setting in the insert effects. Instead, the expression pedal always acts as a volume pedal unless the Wah Type or Pitch Shifter Type is set to PEDAL. Seems like a good idea to me.
  
  
• The Mastering Tool Kit is gone (Equalizer, Bass Cut Filter, Enhancer, Input, Expander, Compressor, Mixer, Limiter, and Output). In its place is the Mastering FX whose 19 patches consist of only three parameters: Dynamics, Tone, and Natural.
  
  
• Drum Pattern editing and Drum Kit editing are no longer provided within the BR. Instead, these must be done with the BR Rhythm Editor software. You can still create and edit arrangements in the BR-800, and it can load patterns and drum kits created in the BR Rhythm Editor software.
  
  
• The BR Rhythm Editor software appears to be identical to the existing version for the BR-600/864/900. I didn't see any new features.
  
  
• The editing features of the BR-800 have been significantly reduced compared to the BR-600/864/900. There are no longer any Track Move or Track Exchange capabilities. And it is no longer possible to copy or erase portions of a track. You can only copy or erase the entire track. I guess you're meant to do most of your editing on the computer instead.
  
  
• Exporting tracks directly from the BR to WAV/AIFF files is no longer possible. Instead, the BR Wave converter software must be used.
  
  
• Importing WAV/AIFF files directly to BR tracks is no longer possible. However, you can copy WAV files to the SKETCH folder and import them into BR tracks. I assume that the BR Wave Converter software could also be used to import WAV/AIFF files to BR tracks but the manual doesn't say.
  
  
• No MIDI other than the dedicated connections for Control Surface/Audio Interface.
  
  
• No Locator points.
  
  
• No Mute button. However, the Play buttons for each track serve the same purpose and are probably easier to use.
  
  
• Cannot detect when two or more buttons are pressed, except for the Scrub operation (STOP and PLAY). So the move-to-start-of-play (STOP and REW) and move-to-end-of-play (STOP and FF) functions are no longer available.
  
  
• There is no longer any choice of Data Type when creating a new song (HiFi-MT2, STD-LV1, and LONG-LV2). I assume it always uses the HiFi (MT2) data type.
  
  
• No Song Optimize. I don't know if this is an oversight, or if it's no longer needed for some reason.
  
  
• Loop record mode merely makes 200 consecutive copies of your recording when you press Stop. That's why there's a slight pause there in the demo videos.
  
  
• Doesn't say if the BR-800 has any compatibility with data saved on a BR-600/864/900, etc.
  
  
• Output can be split, with the tracks going to Line Out and only the Rhythm going to the Headphones. I'm not sure what the purpose of this is. The manual says "This is convenient when you want to play back the sound of the tracks from LINE OUT jacks while monitoring the sound of only the rhythm in your headphones." But why would you want to do that?
  
  
• The footswitch can no longer be used to toggle insert effects. It can only toggle Play/Stop or Punch-In/Out.
  
  
• There is now a separate Phones Level setting in the Output screen. I'd have preferred an actual rotary control for the phones level but at least this is better than the other BRs which have no phones level control at all.
  
  
• Sonar LE is for Windows only. Mac and Linux users who buy a BR-800 are paying for software they can't use.
  
  

[Geir]

•The editing features of the BR-800 have been significantly reduced compared to the BR-600/864/900. There are no longer any Track Move or Track Exchange capabilities. And it is no longer possible to copy or erase portions of a track. You can only copy or erase the entire track. I guess you're meant to do most of your editing on the computer instead.

What That is bad news !!

input sensitivity, move-to-start/end, only windows and lack of drum editing are bummers too. The rest I think I can live with. But making it more dependant of a computer is not good!!! The great thing about the BR series is that they are STAND-ALONE recorders.

[BuleriaChk]

Your (64Guitars) first analysis is EXCELLENT work, and much appreciated.

Output can be split, with the tracks going to Line Out and only the Rhythm going to the Headphones. I'm not sure what the purpose of this is. The manual says "This is convenient when you want to play back the sound of the tracks from LINE OUT jacks while monitoring the sound of only the rhythm in your headphones." But why would you want to do that?

Maybe when recording into a DAW to separate the rhythm tracks in the BR out so the rhythm tracks in the DAW can be used instead (i.e., only the input signals go into the DAW)

This might work for me, in the sense that I can now route the inputs and Effects to the Line Out and the Rhythm to the headphones - if they can be used simultaneously, I can then process the Rhythm track (or send it to the Aux In) independently of the guitar/vocals....

I put the BR-800 back on order to check it out (but I'm sure not going to gig with it until I make a decision)...

[BuleriaChk]

Wonder what the touted DR-880 "Hi Quality" drum machine implementation on the BR-800 is all about.  I already have many, many quality samples.....