Collab Site Etiquette

[Torren61]

I was doing some thinking today.  That explains the burning smell.  But I digress. 

What is the proper etiquette for the kinds of relationships that you build here?  Here's what I mean.

A member sent me a track and asked me to put a guitar on it.  I did.  Now, I tried to email it back to him via Boss but the file was too big so I did what I thought was the right thing.  I put it up on my Soundclick.  Then I posted under his thread that I had done that and I gave the link so others could check out the track.  Ok, that was a faux pas.  That was HIS track and not mine.

Understand, this is a cool guy and he hasn't said one word about it.  Like I said, I was thinking today.   Right?  What I should have done is emailed him that I had the guitar track completed and waited for him to email me back and I could have sent him the track that way. 

The problem is that I CRAVE validation.  It's like a drug to me.  When someone tells me I've done a good job, that's like a hit of coke to me.  Always has been always will be.  I've got issues, I know.  When I had put guitar to his track I LOVED the way it sounded together and I wanted everyone else to hear it, too.  I couldn't wait but I should have. 

THEN...to make matters worse...I posted "I hope someone out there can put a bluesy Gilmour lead to this."  Uh, the guy who did the track plays guitar really well and does Gilmour to a T.  Duh.   It was up to HIM to enlist others to play on his track, not me.

I'd like to come up with a list of collab site Do's and Don'ts.  This is what I think ought to be on the list.  Feel free to add to the list.  They aren't in any particular order.

1. The person that initiates the track owns the track. What I mean is this:  If a person asks me to play on something they have written then they have the right to manage the track as they please.  My job is to provide what they have asked for...period. 

2.  I have the right to say "No".  If you ask me to play something on a track and for whatever reason, I decline, do not be angry with me and think I have snubbed you.  It doesn't mean anything other than I won't be playing on this track this time.

3.  The person who initiates the track has the right to not use your contribution.  If you play something on a track that is not a guarantee it's going to be used on the track in the long run.  Sometimes your best work is not what is best for a particular track. That's not a snub.  It just means that what you have played is not what the person who initiated the track hears in their head.

4.  Constructive criticism is a GOOD THING.  If someone had told Tammy Fae Baker that she wore too much make up she would have not been happy.  But, she wore too much make up!  Sometimes we can't see the forest because there are too many trees in the way.  I want an honest opinion.  If you don't like it...say you don't like it.  Don't tell me you love it because you don't want to hurt my feelings.  Fuck my feelings.  I want to know if it's really good or not.  If it's not good, then what do you think would make it good? 

If I own the track, it's still mine to do what I want with it.  If it's your track and the guitar I played needs to have less overdrive then tell me straight up that it needs less overdrive.  You won't make me angry.  I'll just dial the overdrive down until you like it.  If you don't like the notes or style I'm playing then tell me what you DO want so we can get there.  If you don't like what I'm playing and you want someone else then say so.  I'll play on the tracks you DO want me to play on.

Let's take a break.  Have I mentioned that beer is good?  Beer is good.

Don't ask me my opinion if you don't want my honest opinion.  I'm gonna give it to you.  However, I may be wrong.

This is as far as I got today with my thinking.  Anyone else have anything they want to add?

Did we talk about beer?

[Diego Ayala]

Greetings Torren!  I do not think I have cyber-met you on the forum yet!

My take on this is that I think that the etiguette should be first an above all a respect between musicians, and an understanding that what is requested - like asking for someone to add additional instrumentation/vox/lyrics to a song - both sides must be open minded enough to understand that sometimes things may not be what the original composer/musician had in mind - and hopefuly can work together to complete the project and all sides be satisfied.

My last request for collab in one of my songs made me realize that I (myself) need to be a bit more clearer of expressing what I am looking for - in particular when looking for lyrics to my songs.  It is a new experience from me ==> but I tell you there is some hughemangus talent in this forum - and these same folks are very busy not only with their lives/family but with music and multi-collaborations.  I am learning...

What I truly love about this site is the willingness of alot of folks to just jump in at an opportunity to help someone else - lyrics, vox, and instrumentation.

My response, maybe one needs to make a personal contact, which is how i like to deal with - and exchange info via e-mail.

Try a personal contact => maybe this individual may be having some issues w/ life/family....

[Torren61]

Oh yes.  I agree.  Everyone here has been so cool to meet.  I'm astounded at all of the talent I've heard here.  I haven't read a single disagreeable word.

My point was that I was sharing what I'd been thinking.  I want to be sure that I'm doing the right thing.  I've never been on a site where people collaborate with their music.

I figured all of my stuff would just disappear.  Finding this site has invigorated my desire to make more music.  Working on the guitar track that I did just completely made my weekend.  It was so fun.

[Bluesberry]

This is why we all love this site so much, there is so much real and positive interaction with fellow musicians and songwriters on there.  It really is unlike any other site I have found in that regard, and it becomes a very addictive place.  Colabs are a really fun part of this place, it really is fun, pumps you up and (as you say validates you as a hobby musician).  I also crave comments back from my work, we all do, that is a big part of why we are here.  I appreciate how you are trying to figure this place out and not piss anybody off.  That is a good trait.  I am like that, I need to know the rules before I can get too deep with something.  If you are looking for colabs you have hit a gold mine, some guys on here live for colabs and you will find these folks in a short time.  My take on colabs is, if I am invited to add guitar to something I ask for details in an E-mail of what the person is looking for.  If I am adding a small part to what is a mostly finished piece then I consider the song theirs and send it back to them via E-mail or something to post as they wish.  If I am looking for input on something of mine that is mostly my work, I consider that my song to post when finished.  It will all sort out once you have gotten involved a bit on here.  The important thing is to talk it out ahead of time what is going to happen with the colab via Personal Message or E-mail.

[Ted]

Torren61, you've suggested some some good guidelines.

There are at least three kinds of collaborations that I've seen happen on this site:

• Under the Radar: Two or more members conspire off-forum to produce and release their genius collaboration when it is done.  When this happens, I would expect the person who initiates the collaboration to be able to decide when the product is ready for public scrutiny, and who gets the honor of posting it.
• Single Songwriter Seeking Something: Someone wants to be able to pick from among suitors' contributions. The person posting wants to retain control over the final product and expects to be the gatekeeper.
• Throw it at the Wall and See what Clicks: Someone puts up a file and says, Do with this as you wish. This happens with backers, but sometimes with more structured songs. The person who posts just releases their baby into the world and waits to see what will happen--expecting no control or permission.

In each of these scenarios, the person who initiates the collaboration needs to be absolutely clear about their expectations, so there are no misunderstandings.

Glossary, anyone?

[Torren61]

I was just chuckling to myself when I read these posts.

Bluesberry, those are some fantastic suggestions.  I'm so new to this and you have given some great pointers there.

I was chuckling at the post from Ted.  Particularly the "Throw It At The Wall And See What Clicks".

I can see myself starting out that way and morphing into someone else as I get more confident.

[Bluesberry]

And yes, beer is very good.  I like a nice red/amber Irish-style Ale myself, that is my favorite.  I find it a good fuel for when I am working on music, the more beer I have the better I can work on something.

[OsCKilO]

Do what ever feels right to you bro (for a track)........


If you feel you can take it to another level......Do so!!!!!!!


Tiz the flavour of the site!!!!


Any "right thinking" individual would be honoured to have another artist play on their S**t.....

fire away!!!

[Torren61]

True there.

[henwrench]

4.  Constructive criticism is a GOOD THING.  If someone had told Tammy Fae Baker that she wore too much make up she would have not been happy.  But, she wore too much make up!  Sometimes we can't see the forest because there are too many trees in the way.  I want an honest opinion.  If you don't like it...say you don't like it.  Don't tell me you love it because you don't want to hurt my feelings.  Fuck my feelings.  I want to know if it's really good or not.  If it's not good, then what do you think would make it good? 



Don't ask me my opinion if you don't want my honest opinion.  I'm gonna give it to you.  However, I may be wrong.

I whole heartedly agree with your viewpoint on this subject. I crave the day when someone on this site listens to one of my tunes and says 'Sorry, this shit stinks'. So feel free everyone and inject some honesty into 2010. It won't kill ya!
                                            henwrench