SONG CHALLENGE #1!!!

[SteveG]

Yeah,but I like annoying the grown ups

I keep trying to get my head round this stuff, and it is gradually falling into place bit by bit. Ok, you don't NEED to know it, but it helps if you do!

[Saijinn Maas]

Added Side Effect's take to the main post

[Ted]

Ok, you don't NEED to know it, but it helps if you do!

Helps what?  Seriously: What is it you imagine you'd be able to do if you could beef up your knowledge of theory?  There are certainly plenty of things you'd be able to do, that you can't do now.  But are any of these things that you aspire to do?

An analogy: I speak a bit of French, but I don't speak Latin.  I could speak better French by simply practicing French more often with other French speakers.  If I learned Latin, I'd understand the etymology of French words and grammar--maybe I'd be able to write academic papers, and read On the Nature of Things in the original Latin.  But I don't aspire to do these things.  I only aspire to shoot-the-shit with regular Francophones.  To hell with learning Latin.

Some people are musicians because it comes to them naturally.  Others are musicians by force of will. You're the former. I'm the latter. Gaudete!

[SteveG]

I wish I was a "natural" musician  Not so I am afraid ... been doing this on and of for one hell of a long time, should be waaaay better than I am!

Ok, I can put a song together, I can knock out a half decent blues solo, I can make a fair recording and a listen-able master. But my limits are very narrow, I need to expand them. I do not want to learn the theory for the sake of knowing it, I want to have more options available for song writing, or soloing...

Look at your analogy in a different way, you are writing a song. You have the vocabulary of a 10 yr old. How difficult is it to get your message over? You may well be inspired and talented, but you do not have the tools to put it over effectively!

My recent upsurge in learning more is due to me trying, once again, to get my head round the modes. I did a solo for Mike on the Bluestars thing ... Angie backer that StevieM just posted his take on. I could not get it to sound as I wanted using the pentatonic scales, many many failed attempts. In the end I used the minor scale. crap playing compared to my blues stuff, but the effect I was hearing in my head. My ear is not up to transferring what I have heard elsewhere to my fingerboard without some help ... hence the theory.

I do understand what you are saying, I have argued the same point myself talking to various muso's over the years, but I have come to the point now that I want to know more.

[Wiley]

What do you mean natural??  You sound great to me!!  I guess I can understand some of what you mean by natural, it does come easier to some more than others. But come on you are way to good to go that route.  I would like to hear your take on the Angie backer. I posted it and now STevieM has and it was entirely 2 different views on a beautiful backer.  I just can't imagine yours being bad.  I don't know squat about theory. I know basics, In key of C you have c f & g. and and am,  I couldn't tell you if they were 4 5 or 8th. I just know. On the other hand 48 has given us the Dorian and Aeolian scale.  Never did explain the difference, if there is any.  Must be something. but the pattern is the same.  I don't care how it works as long as it works. LOL And that scale opened up a whole new world for me.  And I am sure there are more surprises.  Have you tried any of that yet?  Anyway send me Angie I would love to hear your take on it.
P.j.

[SteveG]

Over the years  have jammed with ppl who can listen to a song cold and play it straight back to me, no knowledge of theory or reading ... just natural inborn talent. Me, I have to work at it, and the way my head works I like to know a bit of the why's as well as the how's.
A few of the things you said here illustrate the point... In C you also have Dm, Em and B diminished. You can work out this for any key with very little knowledge, and it is going to be of help when trying to put a song together.
As for the two scales, they are two of the major scale modes, all they are is the major scale starting at a different note ... so you are right that the pattern is the same. I more or less understand the theory, using them is a different matter.....

Angie is in the mail ... don't you dare post it!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wiley]

I promise I won't.  I don't post other peoples stuff. Only Kevin and he can't be here to defend himself. LOL

[Ted]

SteveG: You have satisfied me that you are making an informed decision about wanting to learn more theory.  You have my blessings!

But you already rock 100 times better than I can on my best day.

[Saijinn Maas]

I wish I was a "natural" musician  Not so I am afraid ... been doing this on and of for one hell of a long time, should be waaaay better than I am!

I totally hear ya man! Officially, I've been playing since i was 12, so that's 26 years. But realistically? I've been playing for 2 years. most of that time was fiddling around, not taking it seriously, going out, not playing for months, or even years at a time... After my daughter was born, I pulled the old guitar out of the closet, and began tinkering around.  It was a couple of years ago that I convinced my wife to let me buy a new guitar and amp, and now I play 3-4 hours a night. I now wish it had clicked back when I was 12, not in my 30s :/

And regarding theory... I mostly exaggerate for effect. I do actually see the value of theory and have many books and theory sites bookmarked as I slowly teach myself. But I've only gone through modes and scales.. anything to help me solo. And because I think I got a pretty good ear for figuring out chord changes, I haven't felt the need to go into learning key signature and progression stuff yet.

I don't know your methods, or what it is like for you when you sit down to play, but you sure sound pretty natural to me.

Some people learn all this theory, they can identify any key, tell you what mode a guitarist is playing in, etc. But when it comes down to playing and MAKING music, they don't do well. They never end up being nothing more than studio musicians who play OTHER people's music. I don't think anyone on this board fits that model though. I one I've noticed since I've been here since April, is that even though we all have varying degrees of musical knowledge, we are all pretty equal when it comes to passion and love of music.

Besides, I think it was Joe Satriani I heard say, learn everything about theory that you can, then forget everything you've learned.

Okay... I talk too much... 

[SteveG]

Thank you Ted,I will continue my studies happy in the knowledge that  have your support Not sure I agree with the "You rock more than me" bit tho ...

Sai, I know exactly what you mean!! Most of what I know I learned in the first 2 yrs, I was hanging out with a load of guys who were all way better than me (I had just started to learn ... or try to ... when I fell in with the crowd). They basically taught me piecemeal.  This was early 80's .... stupid really as back then there was no internet, no mags with CD's to learn from, the only book was the infamous "Play in a day" or similar titles. Much easier now than it was then. One of us would sit down with a record all night and work out a song note by note ... within a few days we would all know it.  These days you can just download the tab. Was a fun time and I miss it still