Pinedog's Challenge

[OsCKilO]

Just noticed.....

You use a record needle sound in your stuff......

Cool!

[Pine]

First i wanna make it clear i like Bosko's song and i have alot of respect for Bosko and his skills as a musician, songwriter, engineer and producer. That isn't what this about. What this IS about is that all of us ( i think) try to write lyrics that have some meaning and are not jibberish. What is the point in having lyrics if the listener can't hear them? When we finsih a song and go to mixing, we have already usually spent ALOT of time working on the lyrics...while mowing lawns..doing dishes..or laying in bed trying to fall asleep but still thinking of how to make that verse or chorus really hit home. When it comes time to mix, many folks (including myself) are a bit uncomfortable with the sound of their voice. In fact, i don't think i know anybody that thinks their vocals are great...even folks who are pro singers! So anyway, here we are...not overly wild about the sound of our voices and WE know the lyrics inside and out because we have sung them 20 times and struggled with them to get them right. Come mixing time, they fall into a spot in the mix that sounds fine to us....but to a first time listener, they are sometimes hard to decipher. Mark, i think it was your song that i also brought this up about. You then posted the lyrics (hesitantly..lol) and everybody loved them! When you can read the lyrics and listen to them at the same time, suddenly it's not so hard to make them out at all...and the song takes on a new, bigger, and better dimension. On the other hand, perhaps i'm wrong about all this. Does anybody agree with my theory?
    There is no contention here between Bosko and i. We have both been thru the mud at the "other" site and both just want to be as good as we can be. That's what this site is all about i hope. Bosko? Your thoughts?
   

[Blooby]

Bosko, I should add that there is certainly no malice on my part.  I think you know I am a fan of your posts.  I just went for the cheap joke...you know, like I usually do.

Blooby

[OsCKilO]

I think you are right Pinedog......


As Bosko was going for a concept album so the lyrics were important on this tune....

I was just listening for ear-candy and not the thought behind the lyrics...

Guess it depends on what you are going for in a track......


But the track could work well both ways.....

A Meaningful mix with clear vocals....

or a Forget yourself tune for (partially Deaf) beatfreaks like me.....

Tiz my last comment on the subject......

Peace guys..

T(Osckilo)

[Bosko Schwartz]

Wow, I have been gone for a couple of days and this thread really developed while I was out!

To be fair, if any of the other songs were picked, I would have done a much better job. I really like how the vocals sound just the way they are, and definitely would not accuse you of poor mixing.
The song is perfect the way it is.

Thanks, Mark!  Hmm ... I wonder why the lyrics are harder to decipher in this song in particular, compared with my other songs?

I may have screwed up a line here or there, but I got this far...
Blooby
You take the good, you take the bad,
you take them both and there you have
The Facts of Life, the Facts of Life.
There's a time you got to go and show
You're growin' now you know about
The Facts of Life, the Facts of Life.
When the world never seems
to be livin up to your dreams
And suddenly you're finding out
the Facts of Life are all about you, you.
It takes a lot to get 'em right
When you're learning the Facts of Life. (learning the Facts of Life)
Learning the Facts of Life (learning the Facts of Life)
Learning the Facts of Life.

Blooby, all I can say is I sincerely hope you Googled that ...

Here is the "Chorus" before the last verse....... Was the best part for me and the point when people really start listening...
I'm not gonna do all of the song because I still want to enjoy it when I listen to it without having to remember Trying to type out Lyrics......

IT SOUNDS GREAT......

PUBLISH IT!

OTHER PEOPLE WILL LOVE IT!

I dont know why you beat yourself up so much J......

Peace

T(Osckilo)

P.s

I pray I got them right......Lol

I want you to remind me
that if my body ever leaves the ground like this
Then something's wrong in your midst probably amiss
Because this gravity thing
Is proving stronger than always pretty strong and it always
Keeps me grounded
Kicking around it.... I can't get around it
But somehow I am High in the sky....
And I don't know why
But I get the feeling I'll be gone for a long time......
So please go see my lovely wife
And please tell her that I love her
And I Guess you better tell her Good Bye.....

T, first, thanks for the awesome words!  Also, in what way do I ever beat myself up?  Many people have said this and I don't get it.  Will someone please explain this??

Secondly, you, sir, have officially won the Challenge, and thus, have managed to (mind you, these are P-Dog's own words, now -- I would never say this myself) ...

"... shut [Pinedog] and [his] whining up about the need for vox to be on top ... forever!"

T, you really did a good job deciphering, and that makes me feel a lot better about the levels of the vox in the mix!  You were only slightly off on just a couple of words (corrected above in red), but for the most part, you were right on!  Congratulations!

First i wanna make it clear i like Bosko's song and i have alot of respect for Bosko and his skills as a musician, songwriter, engineer and producer. That isn't what this about. What this IS about is that all of us ( i think) try to write lyrics that have some meaning and are not jibberish. What is the point in having lyrics if the listener can't hear them? When we finsih a song and go to mixing, we have already usually spent ALOT of time working on the lyrics...while mowing lawns..doing dishes..or laying in bed trying to fall asleep but still thinking of how to make that verse or chorus really hit home. When it comes time to mix, many folks (including myself) are a bit uncomfortable with the sound of their voice. In fact, i don't think i know anybody that thinks their vocals are great...even folks who are pro singers! So anyway, here we are...not overly wild about the sound of our voices and WE know the lyrics inside and out because we have sung them 20 times and struggled with them to get them right. Come mixing time, they fall into a spot in the mix that sounds fine to us....but to a first time listener, they are sometimes hard to decipher. Mark, i think it was your song that i also brought this up about. You then posted the lyrics (hesitantly..lol) and everybody loved them! When you can read the lyrics and listen to them at the same time, suddenly it's not so hard to make them out at all...and the song takes on a new, bigger, and better dimension. On the other hand, perhaps i'm wrong about all this. Does anybody agree with my theory?
    There is no contention here between Bosko and i. We have both been thru the mud at the "other" site and both just want to be as good as we can be. That's what this site is all about i hope. Bosko? Your thoughts?

Pinedog, I agree with you 100% about the importance of lyrics.  Let me explain why the vox are not way out front in my mixes.  I have been working on this album for longer than three years.  When I first started doing this, I was extremely hesitant about my voice.  So I purposely made them fairly low in the mix.  After many people have told me how much they like my voice (to my amazement), I sort of grew to accept it.  Now, the problem lies more with the fact that I don't seem to have the recording engineering skills to bring the vox up without losing something equally important, like the drums, bass, keys, etc.  So I try to make everything as balanced as possible so that every instrument and vocal melody is heard.  My stuff is admittedly hard to mix and I do it to myself by throwing layer upon layer, rather than keeping it stripped down.  So it's very difficult for me to mix everything and keep it balanced.  If I knew more about compression (I use it, but not sure if I know what I'm doing ) or other tricks of the trade, I would be able to bring up the vox and not lose the other instruments, which is my ultimate goal.  It's still a work in progress.  So the main reason for the vox being low is just the fact that I'm not a very good producer.  Same goes for the effects on the vox; I used to use them more to "mask" my vox because I hated them, but then I started to realize the fact that no amount of effects can mask a shitty performance.  I learned that practice makes perfect and if there are little out-of-key moments, they just need to be re-recorded, period.  That said, I still use effects heavily, but now it's not to "mask" the imperfections, but simply because I am very much influenced by psychedelia, and of course, a staple of this style is heavy vocal effects.  Nowadays, I always record my vox dry and make sure that they sound good all the way through, DRY, before adding any effects.  I assure you that when I learn more vocal mixing tricks, I will put them more out front.  In fact, that is a major goal of mine for my next record.  In the meantime, I have just finished the inside liner notes of this album, and I made sure to write down every single word, because, as you said, they are important.  So now everyone will be able to read along while listening!

Bosko, I should add that there is certainly no malice on my part.  I think you know I am a fan of your posts.  I just went for the cheap joke...you know, like I usually do.
Blooby

Bloob, I laughed quite heartily when I read that, and you need not explain your warped sense of humor, as it is quite similar to mine.  Thanks for the laugh!

I think you are right Pinedog......
As Bosko was going for a concept album so the lyrics were important on this tune....
I was just listening for ear-candy and not the thought behind the lyrics...
Guess it depends on what you are going for in a track......
But the track could work well both ways.....
A Meaningful mix with clear vocals....
or a Forget yourself tune for (partially Deaf) beatfreaks like me.....
Tiz my last comment on the subject......
Peace guys..
T(Osckilo)

T, everyone is right, the lyrics are important, and yes, they can at times be hard to decipher.  That's why they'll be present in the liner notes of the album when it's released.

Thanks to everyone for your time and comments!!!  This turned out to be a fun thread!

[Ferryman_1957]

Don't ask me to decipher lyrics. I'm deaf as a post and after all I though the chorus to "Across the Universe" went "Jackaroo, there you are" for many years.

Print 'em in the liner notes and I'm happy. I don't mind not hearing all the words, I quite like to be able to make out some of the words to get a sense of the lyrics but I don't need to know them all. Sometimes I like to imagine what they are saying, the vocal sound creates an image for me. I'm afraid I disagree with Pinedog - IMO it's not important that the listener hears every word of the lyrics. For me, the lyrics are required for the singer to get the right emotion into the vocal performance. It doesn't matter to me if they sing them in such a strange way that they are undecipherable, or that the producer blends them in the mix. The Cocteau Twins and My Bloody Valentine are great examples of bands where the sound of the lyrics is more important than hearing the lyrics themselves.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Pine]

Sorry i'm late here...busy bee lately.

On this fourth day of August, 2009, Pinedog hereby concedes defeat to Bosko on the Pinedog Challenge.

However Bosko, i guess you didn't read the fine print It said that if i lost you had to buy me new hearing aids.  Please forward $2500 asap. Thank you!

All kidding aside, your explanation for all this Bosko is one that i think most all of us can relate to. Singing is no different than playing...it takes alot of practice. When you write songs like yours, with many layers, vox can and do often get hard to decipher. For me, it just makes the entire listening experience so much nicer and more relaxing if i can just read along. Posting the lyrics on your CD is an excellent idea, especially since it's a concept album and not bubble gum pop where everything is repeated a thousand times. Your lyrics are like your music....important to you. It's easy to have lyrics out front on a coffeehouse mix (guitar & vox) but in the complex world of multitracking, keeping them at "just the right level" and "in their own space" is indeed a huge challenge...one that we all struggle with.
      I will keep to my word. Pinedog will never again utter the words "your vox need to come up in the mix"....that is unless somebody asks...then it's my "duty" as a fellow BR student to share my opinion...which is all anybody's comments ever are actually. If somebody mixed their vox so low that you could just barely tell that there even WERE vox, perhaps that's how they like them. Ain't no right or wrong in music. That's why i love it so. Thanks to all for keeping this a fun thread...and one full of food for thought.

Pine

[launched]

I just wanted to say that I never minded when you wanted lyrics - heck, if you wanted any kind of explanation it would be cool.

You have lots more experience, so you have to be more of a giver on sites like these, but give your opinion and ask for those damn lyrics if you want. You aren't offending anyone!

You da man, Charlie!!

Mark

[Bosko Schwartz]

Sorry i'm late here...busy bee lately.

On this fourth day of August, 2009, Pinedog hereby concedes defeat to Bosko on the Pinedog Challenge.

However Bosko, i guess you didn't read the fine print It said that if i lost you had to buy me new hearing aids.  Please forward $2500 asap. Thank you!

All kidding aside, your explanation for all this Bosko is one that i think most all of us can relate to. Singing is no different than playing...it takes alot of practice. When you write songs like yours, with many layers, vox can and do often get hard to decipher. For me, it just makes the entire listening experience so much nicer and more relaxing if i can just read along. Posting the lyrics on your CD is an excellent idea, especially since it's a concept album and not bubble gum pop where everything is repeated a thousand times. Your lyrics are like your music....important to you. It's easy to have lyrics out front on a coffeehouse mix (guitar & vox) but in the complex world of multitracking, keeping them at "just the right level" and "in their own space" is indeed a huge challenge...one that we all struggle with.
      I will keep to my word. Pinedog will never again utter the words "your vox need to come up in the mix"....that is unless somebody asks...then it's my "duty" as a fellow BR student to share my opinion...which is all anybody's comments ever are actually. If somebody mixed their vox so low that you could just barely tell that there even WERE vox, perhaps that's how they like them. Ain't no right or wrong in music. That's why i love it so. Thanks to all for keeping this a fun thread...and one full of food for thought.

Pine

Just so you know, Charlie, I never did mind your asking for the vox to be more "up front" in the mix.  I completely see your point that the vox and lyrics are quite important and anyone should be able to decipher what is being sung.  I, too, am a HUGE fan of 50s and 60s music in which the vox was the most prominent "instrument" in every mix ever recorded.  And certainly I don't mind you asking for the lyrics; in fact, I find it to be a compliment that you care enough to find out what I am singing.   Sometimes it's just not possible to raise the vox for the many reasons I listed.  In addition, sometimes, in my case, it's because these are final versions of songs that are actually going to be mastered and released in their current state.  Re-mixing them again would be kind of like making a "Director's Cut" of a film after it's already been released.  There comes a time where you just have to stand up and walk away from a mix.  It's harder for me to do that than anyone, probably, as I am known as the Chronic Re-Mixer of our esteemed Forum.  I believe a term was even coined by ORH to reflect this ... Boskoschwartzitis.  So it's not that I am against re-mixing, it's just that it's a dangerous habit -- detrimental to my mental well-being -- and I've got to quit.

So I will never personally hold you to your declaration, and I am willing to bet no one else here will either.  But I appreciate you playing along!

And by the way, Tharek, I'll send you that $100 right away for pretending to have deciphered the lyrics -- I like how you changed a few of them just to make it more authentic ...

[Pine]

  Good post Bosko..what better way to start the day than with a laugh and a smile.

As for your thoughts on re-mixing: i don't have time to go back through this whole thread but i strongly doubt that i ever recommended or even suggested remixing. I may have stated that i thought the vox were too low for my comfort level, but believe me Bosko, i am THE LAST person to ever want to go back and remix. I think i am the other end of the rainbow from you. I dread it and once a song is deemed "done" by me, i listen to comments and consider them for future works but i never go back. I'm not sure why...probably my inherent lack of patience. I think everybody here knows the experience...you write a song...it's pretty good...you play and play and re-write and re-record and mix and re-mix and by the time you are done, you never want to hear the damn thing again! Sometimes i'll go weeks without a relisten.

As for getting your vox "on top" like they did in the old days, i agree, it's a big challenge...especially when you are adding so many layers. All those frequencies cross over into one another and finding "sacred space" for you vox is all but impossible. Another reason for the need for printed out lyrics in your CD jacket. I would call your placement of vox a "contemporary mix" ...because the vast majority of signed artists are mixed the same way. I can't understand them either    I never have trouble hearing lyrics in early Elvis Presley...Bob Dylan...The Animals...The Beatles (especially early on)...James Taylor...but since the eighties the mixes somehow have gotten muddy and my hearing has diminished and that's a bad combo...

oh and Tharek...drop my share of that $100 in the mail when ya get it...i can't believe Bosko went for our plan!

Keep at 'er Bosko and best of luck with the CD.

Pine