Help me, I think Ive got an idea

[Bluesberry]

Sorry Sprocket if you perceived that I was picking on you.  I was just having a little fun with ORH, I couldn't resist when he said about giving away his secret.  It seemed funny to me.  I have a feeling that ORH was being serious, and that he does use some kind of open tuning to play 1 finger barre chords, so if true, he is using something like your idea.

I keep my old acoustic guitar tuned to open G tuning all the time, I like open G and it is great for sliding.  1 finger chords work well with open G.  This is the tuning that Keith Richards uses almost all the time (and he removes his low E string, just 5 strings).  Beautiful tuning, I think this is the tuning you want to explore.  It is good for songs in G or C. Good for all those Rolling Stones riffs, good for delta blues, good tuning all around.  I think Richie Havens uses Open G also, correct me if I am wrong.

[Sprocket]

Sorry Sprocket if you perceived that I was picking on you.  I was just having a little fun with ORH, I couldn't resist when he said about giving away his secret.  It seemed funny to me.  I have a feeling that ORH was being serious, and that he does use some kind of open tuning to play 1 finger barre chords, so if true, he is using something like your idea.

I keep my old acoustic guitar tuned to open G tuning all the time, I like open G and it is great for sliding.  1 finger chords work well with open G.  This is the tuning that Keith Richards uses almost all the time (and he removes his low E string, just 5 strings).  Beautiful tuning, I think this is the tuning you want to explore.  It is good for songs in G or C. Good for all those Rolling Stones riffs, good for delta blues, good tuning all around.  I think Richie Havens uses Open G also, correct me if I am wrong.

I appologize again as Im coming here to escape...its not so much you or yall...things are messy and I'll leave it at that.

Richie Havens is amazing, lemme just say that again, hes amazing...the guy changes tunings rapidly between songs, all the while enlightening you with wisdom through his soft spoken voice. Im sure he uses G alot, but I could not limit him to say he uses one tuning more than another...I really dont know which songs are in which, but I did research his style a couple years ago after seeing him. I may have experimented with alt tunings twice since then.

I really like the idea of open E still, for the simple fact that the "guitar hero" could look and see what fret I was on and somewhat copy where my index finger is, "follow my index finger, if Im not on the top string then skip 2 strings".

One last thing about RHavens...I love telling people about this lil known fact...he is the originator and un-credited writer of "All Along The Watch Tower"...Bob Dylan lifted it in both of thier Grenwich Village days, but still believes it to be his own, to this day.(drugs are bad, okay?)

[SteveB]

Speaking of Keith Richard, he described himself thus:

5 strings, 3 chords, 2 fingers, 1 asshole.

Hmm. 

[AndyR]

Hi Sprocket, I'm late to this one.

In principle, it would work, but it's very restrictive using an open tuning and I'm guessing that most beginners would shy away from it pretty quickly once it's done it's job - get someone making music fast.

It also doesn't address the "right-hand" problem. Most beginners I've come across have a lot more difficulty with hitting the strings in time - they can see the chords thing is just a matter of learning the positions and training the fingers to move to them, but the rhythm and damping on the right hand is a major stumbling block. An open tuning would enable the player to concentrate on this, but like 64 said, it's harder barring (even two strings) than holding down one... and then there's the psychological "OK, I'm getting noises, but I'm not playing properly like you do"

As to the tuning to use:

I use Open G (DGDGBD) a lot, mainly for slide playing, but I can get more complex chords out of it. One of the names for it is "Hawaiian". Like others have said, Keef uses it, almost exclusively, with the 6th string off (-GDGBD). You cannot play Brown Sugar, or many other famous Stones riffs, "authentically" without this tuning. I would guess Richie Havens uses it a lot, as did Jimmy Page. And I understand Barry Gibb learnt to play guitar and write songs with it - he didn't even know there was a different way - but he must have found standard tuning very early on otherwise I don't see how he could have written some of the early 60's Bee Gees hits.

I also use Open D (DADF#AD) - this is the same intervals as Open E (EBEG#BE) - but better for your guitar. Again I mainly use it for slide playing.

There's also a very similar tuning, "Modal" D (DADGAD) - this gives you a sus4 chord. This tends to sound folkie, but it's used on a lot of famous stuff (Jimmy Page loved it - Black Mountain Side/White Summer uses it, I believe John Martyn used it a fair bit). This tuning requires a fair bit of learning chords, and wouldn't really be any use for what you're thinking.

For a beginner, if they want to try open tunings, I would strongly recommend G. I know this restricts what the accompanying "real" guitarist can do, but I feel it has several advantages:

1) The real guitarist can't show off all the tricks they know for good ole "E" - this is a lot better for the beginner
2) Open G is a lot more flexible than Open D or E. This is because the 3rd is on the 2nd string and can be "hidden" in your playing more easily.
3) Open G sounds "tighter" and therefore has a better chance of sounding musical in the hands of a novice. This is again related to the 3rd of the chord. Open D or E has the 3rd of the chord on the 3rd string, right in the middle of the action. It's harder to get this string in tune for both open and fretted notes when you've got the main 3rd sitting on it (in the G tuning it's the root note, and you've got some leeway - our ears will put up with the root being "off" a bit, but a wavering 3rd sounds vile)
4) When they get adventurous, there are a lot of simple twiddles they can add that sound really good (eg if you want minors you can use the guts of the Am fingering -2nd, 3rd, 4th strings- up and down the neck). The "Keef" chord is the most obvious - on an open G, fret 2nd string first fret, 4th string 2nd fret, play all 5 (-GEGCD). Try hammering this on/off, you get millions of Stones (and Black Crowes!) riffs.
Try doing the same thing on open E or D, and it's "muddier" - works really well on solo accoustic (eg blues) stuff (only if you can get the third string in tune enough!), but it isn't so good if you're playing the subsiduary role in a jam.

I could list some more, but for me, G would be far better for helping a beginner.

However, I think it's only useful as an early experiment, just to get some sounds out. In the long run, unless they specifically want to play blues or folkie arrangements (where all their songs, because of the tuning restrictions, will have to sound similar), then the standard tuning is far easier to learn and master.

[Greeny]

First of all, I hope your 'mess' is resolving itself 

ORH is using bar chords to great effect on some current Jemima's Kite tracks. Not only that, but he's managing to play along (in tune!!!!) with my multi-layered and capo'd guitar parts which are all in standard tuning. So it's certainly possible to do.

Bosko pretty much summed it up for me - like him, I'm self taught and have no understanding of chord theory whatsoever. I just play what sounds good without caring what it is, or whether it's 'acceptable' from a theory point of view. It feels like freedom to me. So I wouldn't get bogged down worrying about the right or wrong way of doing anything - just play and experiment and have fun.

Funnily enough, I just recorded my first ever song in an alternate tuning. I was after DADGAD, but found something I preferred - DADGGD. It allowed Em shapes played on any fret to make some good, easy chords with a folky-psychedelic 'drone' coming from the other strings.

I tried open G for slide once, and I suddenly realised how the old blues guys got their sound. It's a bit of a revelation the first time you try it. But slide is a very special skill to get right, so just having the right tuning isn't enough - it takes serious practice to complete the package.

Not trying to be picky, but what's wrong with learning a few basic chords? There are loads of three-chord songs out there. A lot of people have made entire careers out of it. With songwriting, it's not the chords you're playing but how you use them that counts. And in the same way, you could know every chord theory, chord, scale and position going, and still not be able to write a song.

It's all about fun - whatever feels right and fun is important!

[guitarron]

Just put the slide on the 3 obvious places and wiggle it around a lot 

I am CRAP at slide playing, probably because I don't practice it ... typically 

i can relate
having fun with a open G for a pending project

[Sprocket]

Thanks for the replies and support, Greenie, as an adult Ive learned nothing fixes itself...and change is a difficult choice for most to make. Ive kinda got the trifecta of work, relationship and personal life going on...I gots the blues, but Im working it all out...thinking about other things such as open tunings and helping others learn about music is free-ing my mind...and Im not naturally talented, I feel the need to learn and develop skills I dont have.

In hindsight, Im looking at my request with my "idea" to help the guitar hero...but in the process I realized how much Ive learned, I can now consider the notes relationship from standard E to open E...and it makes sense to me, suddenly like never before. Im gonna try it in open E, cause I think I can wrap my head around it right now...I can also use a capo on the 3rd fret and its open G, only different than your open G.
Im also considering these tunings and the mechanical issues they bring to MY guitar(trussrod adjustments)...I thought about the A string adding a whole steps tension to my neck...and I see that open G is kinda slack. Ive got a beater Yamaha acoustic(which I love, but never play) that Im gonna experiment with a few open tunings on my own...thats the other benifit, if its gonna be easy to show the guitar hero, then Ive got to be able to communicate how to use this...so Ive got to learn it first.
And once again, in hindsight...I dont think teaching a person open tuning is gonna be easier(for either involved) and will probably only confuse things further...even if it did initially help or inspire...I dunno, maybe I can make it easy still, lemme see what I learn first!

Thanks again for replies and support...Im finding support in the most unexpected places, thanks.

[AndyR]

I think you're right - an open tuning could well help inspire at the begining. Imagine the first time you picked up a guitar, and you manage to bang out something, with someone else, that sounds like music...

I can give you a pointer on the relationship between the E or D shaped tuning and the G or A shaped tuning:

The fingerings are the same, but moved across one string!! That's how I conquered the E or D shape.

On open G or A, you use 1,2,3,4,5 mainly. Sometimes using the low 6 if it's any use for the chord or a passing bass note.

All the fingerings you learn in this tuning can then be transposed to the E or D shape: you just put them on 2,3,4,5,6 - and then you have to figure out what to do with the new top note on the 1st string. Simple! (-ish)

On the tune up or tune down question - general wisdom always used to be always tune down, it puts less strain on the neck (especially if you're playing slide, because you'll likely have much heavier strings on).

To follow this, you should be using open D, not open E. D flattens three strings from standard. E raises 3 strings from standard.

Likewise, you should use G rather than A. G flattens three, A raises three.

Both A and E sound "tighter" than G and E, because the strings are under more tension and the pitch is a tone higher. You can get close to the effect by, for example, tuning to D and then using a capo on the 2nd to get you to E - this sounds fairly close to open E but puts less strain on the neck.

There is much to be gained from open tunings - Johnny Marr in The Smiths, for example - I didn't like the Smiths at all, still don't, but I did like the backing tracks, nearly every song was created with non-standard tunings... (and his fave guitarist was Rory Gallagher, so he was already "OK" the minute he said that in a guitar-mag interview )

So, yeah, do experiment with tunings. I've just been doing that recently with my trusty G tuning - drop the 2nd string to Bb to give us a minor G (I understand one of the old blues guys - is it Albert Collins? - always played his tele tuned to F minor, even playing major most of the time!! - I used think WTF?!, but now I'm begining to see how that might not be so crazy )

Good luck!