bouncing and panning

[neatnik66]

I've been left a bit confused by the Boss manual's explanation of bouncing tracks.  Is it necessary to adjust the pan levels as described to achieve the bounce?  Or are they just illustrating something else that can be done as part of the process?

Also, does a recording on one of the four manin tracks necessarily occupy one of the virtual tracks?  I'm not sure if I can erase one of the main tracks and retain the contents of the associated virtual track.
Cheers.

[neatnik66]

Me again... I just wanted to point out that I'm wading through previous posts for answers to these questions (not just waiting for replies to come in).  And I've discovered here http://www.geocities.com/sixtyfourguitars/BossBr/Tutorials/V-Tracks_and_Bouncing.html that any one of the main tracks is simply one of the eight virtual tracks within that track.  The main track is not a separate entity.
Now, to panning...

[Blooby]

If I understood your question...

You don' have to pan to achieve a bounce (presumably to a stereo pair of tracks), but once you bounce, your instrumentation will be stuck where it is in the stereo field (unless you pan those stereo tracks heavily to one side).

Hope this helps.

Peace.

Blooby

Addendum: with this post, I became a four-starred "senior member."  Ironically, I can't remember where I put my keys, and I lost control of my bowels at that very time of the posting. 

[neatnik66]

You don' have to pan to achieve a bounce (presumably to a stereo pair of tracks), but once you bounce, your instrumentation will be stuck where it is in the stereo field (unless you pan those stereo tracks heavily to one side).

Thanks... I admit I'm not sure what the implications of being 'stuck in a certain spot in the stereo field' are.

[Blooby]

An example:

If you create a stereo bounce where all the instruments are in the center (or wherever), competing for the same frequencies, you won't be able to split them up later.  Moving an instrument a hair left or right can sometimes open up an otherwise cluttered mix.

Hope this helps.

Blooby

[64Guitars]

I've been left a bit confused by the Boss manual's explanation of bouncing tracks.  Is it necessary to adjust the pan levels as described to achieve the bounce?  Or are they just illustrating something else that can be done as part of the process?

Bounce mode routes the four currently-selected v-tracks plus the drum tracks and the input through the Micro BR's built-in mixer section and records the stereo output of the mixer section to the destination v-tracks. The pan settings are part of the mixer section, along with track level and reverb send.

(Click to enlarge)

Excuse the crude drawing. One of these days I'll make a proper graphic of this.
Note: I just noticed that I incorrectly criss-crossed the lines from the mixer output to the destination v-tracks. The left channel output from the mixer should go to track 3 and the right channel should go to track 4.

If you set the bounce destination to a single v-track, the recording will be mono and the pan settings won't matter. However, you would normally set the bounce destination to a pair of v-tracks since you're recording the stereo output of the mixer section. In that case, it's important to pan each track within the stereo panorama (left-right). After the bounce, the mix is locked in the bounce destination tracks and you will no longer be able to change the pan position of a single instrument in the mix unless you go back to the original v-tracks and do the bounce again. So it's important to set the pan position of each track when you bounce your tracks to create an intermediate or final stereo mix.

You need to be aware of all of the mixer settings when bouncing. With an intermediate bounce, where you're just bouncing so that you can record some more tracks, you don't want to include the drums, so reduce the Rhythm level to minimum. And you probably won't want to include the input normally, so reduce it to minimum too to avoid noise. Set the reverb sends as desired. Remember that you can add reverb in the final mix too, so you might not want it in an intermediate bounce unless you just want to apply it to a single track, for example. And don't forget to adjust the Master Level. Since it controls the output level of the mixer section, it also determines the recording level of the bounce destination tracks. If it's too high, you'll get clipping distortion. If it's too low, your overall volume will be too low on playback and you may even get some noise.

[galestermusic]

Hey 64!!! You truly an asset here! I have a question. This just happened to me. I WROTE A SONG! LOL yep Lyrics and all. So as  Iwas working on it I didn't realize or it didn't dawn on me the I was recording Tr1 Tr2 Tr3 Tr4 @ L50 R50.
I thought it sounded strange. Before I bounced, I centered everything. Oh my it was terrible! You could barely hear it etc. Needless to say, I deleted it and strarting over again. Will record centered...ut what is more important, bouncing L and R or Mastering L and R, Everything I've done Ive mastered L and R.

You are the GURU!

Thanks

Greg

[Jim1970]

When I need to add more tracks, (BOUNCE), After I run out of tracks I pan all the tracks they way I want my recording to sound. L5 R10 LC R5 ect.
then I bounce them to V12. then I adjust tracks 1 and 2 L=50 R=50, then I put tracks 3 and 4 to 0 volume. I play back the recording to make sure It sounds the way I want it to sound. Then I have tracks 3 and 4 no open to record more tracks. hope that helps.

[64Guitars]

So as  Iwas working on it I didn't realize or it didn't dawn on me the I was recording Tr1 Tr2 Tr3 Tr4 @ L50 R50.

Actually, you didn't record those tracks L50/R50. You monitored them L50/R50.

In normal record mode, the mixer section comes after the record tracks. So panning and other mixer settings have no effect on the recorded track. They only affect the playback.

[Input]--->[Insert Effects]--->[Record Track]--->[Mixer Section]--->[Headphones]

The output of the mixer section isn't actually being recorded anywhere, so it doesn't matter how its parameters are set (level, pan, reverb, master level), except that it affects what you monitor in your headphones while recording.

But in Bounce Mode and Mastering Mode, the signal path is changed to this:

[4 Playback Tracks]--->[Mixer Section]--->[2 Destination V-Tracks]

Since the two destination tracks are being recorded and they come after the mixer section, the mixer settings will affect the recording.

Before I bounced, I centered everything. Oh my it was terrible! You could barely hear it etc.

I'm not sure why you could barely hear it, but you normally shouldn't pan all of your tracks to the center when bouncing. The object of a bounce is to create a stereo mix of your tracks. So, you want each of the individual instruments to have their own position within the stereo panorama (left-right). If you pan everything to center, then you end up with mono because the left channel information is identical to the right channel information.

Will record centered...ut what is more important, bouncing L and R or Mastering L and R, Everything I've done Ive mastered L and R.

Set the pan of each track as desired when bouncing to position each instrument within the stereo panorama. The odd-numbered track of the bounce destination will contain the left channel information and the even-numbered track will contain the right channel information. To preserve the stereo mix when mastering, set the left channel pan to L50 and the right channel pan to R50. If the remaining two tracks are recorded and you want to include them when mastering, set their pans wherever you want to position those instruments.

For example, suppose you recorded the following tracks:

Tr1v1 - Rhythm Guitar
Tr2v1 - Bass
Tr3v1 - Lead Guitar
Tr4v1 - Lead Vocal

Then you played it back and adjusted the pans like this:

Tr1v1 - Rhythm Guitar    L25
Tr2v1 - Bass             C00
Tr3v1 - Lead Guitar      R30
Tr4v1 - Lead Vocal       C00

Next, you bounce those four tracks to Tr1v2 and Tr2v2. Then you record two different harmony background vocals on Tr3v2 and Tr4v2. Now you're ready to master. So, you'd set the track pans like this:

Tr1v2 - Mix (left channel)    L50
Tr2v2 - Mix (Right channel)   R50
Tr3v2 - Harmony vocal 1       L15  (for example)
Tr4v2 - Harmony vocal 2       R15  (for example)


By setting the pan from the previous mix to L50/R50, you preserve the stereo positioning that's already in the mix. The left channel information stays in the left channel and the right channel information stays in the right channel. But the positioning of the harmony vocals has not yet been decided because they weren't in the previous mix. So, you can pan them wherever you want them to appear in the master mix.

[Glenn Mitchell]

nicely explained 64