BR1600 weird issue

[bruno]

Sorry fellow Songcrafters, it a deep technical issue - however worth documenting as a 'gotcha'.

So a couple of songs back I had an issue with intonation of synths recording - I couldn't figure out what I'd done.

However, I've been using the SPDIF interface to record the Kemper, and it looks like it does funny things with the internal clock on the 1600. It looks like SPDIF can fundamentally change the core clock on your recording device, for me this manifests itself as a play A transposing itself down to a G, and the whole tune slowing down, all in sync, but slower.

I recorded guitars on the Kemper - everything fine. Playback normal, all sounded good. I switched the Kemper off, and the entire playback on the BR1600 slows down, including detuning everything by 1 tone (A -> G). I'm not sure what happens to vocals as I didn't have anything, however everything is sync'd, just slower. Plus the Kemper back in and re-sync - this resets back to the original pitch. This is FOOBAR.

Read a bit, and the Kemper acts as the master clock - hence the general weird time shift. You can apparently switch that off so its not the master, I will need to figure that bit out. However I've got some tracks recorded in a different time frame of reference. If I try to record something non kemper, then I will have to detune - or record it all. Else I'll abandon SPDIF and go back to stereo out audio into the BR1600 preamps.

One to be aware, if you are using SPDIF. I really like SPDIF as its a completely digital chain (no preamps colouring the sound). I couldn't figure out what I'd done wrong in a previous track, I thought the synth had drifted its tuning - but it was clearly this issue. I will post more as and when I discover more.

To be fair, I've had very few issues with the BR1600, and was quite surprised to find SPDIF working with the different ages of technologies. Boss haven't updated the software in ages (10 years), and the Kemper is bang up to date. But this is really weird and unexpected. Hopefully this helps...

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[AndyR]

I've never used the Digital IN/OUT on the BR1600. This is mainly because I'm rather fond of the BOSS Digital-Audio-Converter (DAC) so I've never investigated further. Also, although I have guitar units that can generate digital source, I always mix on the BR, and I have no desk or speakers that will take a digital output from the BR, so it seemed pointless avoiding the BOSS DAC on the way in and then using it for everything else (mixing and playback).

But I was quite interested in what you were saying.

I did a bit of reading and discovered various things.

S/PDIF is a "standard" since Sony introduced it, so it won't have changed.

The "clock" involved is the Word clock, controlling bitrate of data transfer, not a timecode.
The protocol includes the original word clock embedded in the data, so it can be extracted on playback.

However, what Bit Depth are you using? I read a thread on a Kemper forum (this was going into a DAW via various interfaces) and the Kemper users were talking about making sure you set your Kemper to Sample Rate 44.1 and bit depth 24 bit.

But that won't work with a BR1600.
My understanding is that the BR1600 is a 16 bit machine - if that is the case, no software upgrade is going to change that.

So is it possible you could be sending 24 bit audio data for playback on a 16 bit DAC processor? That's gonna give some weird results.

I found this on roland which seems to confirm the BR wants 16-bit only:

https://rolandus.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201977809-BR-1600-BR-1600CD-Recording-an-External-Device-Using-the-DIGITAL-IN

That says

The BR-1600CD is compatible with the following digital audio format:

Digital Audio Format: S/PDIF
Sample Rate: 44.1kHz
Bit Depth: 16 bit

I'd check out what format you're sending from the Kemper.

I'm not sure it's the whole story, but I do think it's worth checking Bit Depth out before giving up on S/PDIF.

Hope you get to the bottom of it... I'll be really interested to know what's going on.

[bruno]

Andy - thanks for the response - this is helpful.

The Kemper is a 24 bit device, the manual states
"S/PDIF IN/OUT: 44.1/48/88.2/96 kHz (24 bits) with RCA phone connectors for coax cables (units built before 2018 are master only, newer units can be master or slave)"

I have been using S/PDIF for a couple of years now - and only seen this issue relatively recently. I checked the output on the Kemper and it was set to 48KHz - interesting. I'm not sure that I changed this, but it could be fat fingers! I suspect a relatively recent Kemper upgrade, this may have reset the S/PDIF format, although I did a bit of playing around as the S/PDIF stopped working at the time - so well could have been me.

When I set it back to 44.1 KHz, the BR1600 behaves completely as expected, with no pitch shifting going on - good, I will leave it on that setting! Note that it must be coping with 24 bit - really not sure, but it works really well.

Setting it back to 48kHz repeats the behaviour. It makes sense as its recording at 48Khz, and when you un-sync the clock, it returns the BR1600 to 44.1 KHz, slowing the whole machine down. Its like changing the speed on a tape machine. Without hearing the pitch and speed shift (I'm impressed with myself that I heard the pitch shift without a reference - and then checked the tuning on the guitar, thinking WTF) , you've no indication that anything has changed, only that its slightly lower and slower. The drum loops adjust, as do the recorded kemper guitars, its all in sync, just slower and lower. I tried the higher sampling rates just for jollies - they produced a horrible white noise, so it seems to behave in this way for 48Khz. Perhaps Boss added this as a technical Easter Egg??? Apart from having to re-record some tracks, its quite a fun and clearly undocumented feature, theoretically I can now make a fast track even faster :-)
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[StephenM]

Interesting....
I am using two BR's as Master and slave....oddly enough the documents have me connect the digital out to the digital out (on both units)....
glad to hear you figured out your problem... I have been having a problem with my recordings getting screwed up on Band lab....and I figured out it's a problem with my computer.... it's just getting too old and I have no issues mixing at work but home it gets all messed up.....

[AndyR]

Ah that makes sense of some of the other stuff I was reading and this nagging "why would it cope or not cope with 24bit?"

Last night I got really into reading about it and before I knew it it was 3am!!! So I didn't write some of the stuff I was reading later.

Anyways, there was stuff about the sample rate, but I decided not to delve or mention - reasoning that when you check you'd spot a mismatch there too.

Yep, on bit depth, it was sounding like earlier soundcards should have a reasonable chance of reading 24 bit because the bitrate and actual number of bits used is meant to be in the S/PDIF message.

But sample rate, yeah, the BR when left to its own devices (Kemper switched off) would be expecting less samples for each note... so I can imagine it could be interpreting it as longer notes and reduced pitch... When you switch on the Kemper it's going "I'm the boss, we're operating at 48K now" and the BR goes "fair enough" and cope. You mentioned loops... I'm guessing you didn't have any midi stuff going on, eg the BR's drum machine - I'm imagining they wouldn't have been in synch with the guitar parts when the Kemper was switched off.

But anyway, who cares? If you got it going ok without having to go too far into the physics of it, that's a win for us musicians 

By the way, I suspect they've upgraded the Kemper so that it can be used for playback of another device's digital signal? If it was master only, from what I've read on the S/PDIF protocol, you'd have danger of glitches in playback if you can't tell the Kemper to accept another device's word clock data.

And Stephen, Out to Out?!?!? At first I was thinking what?!?!? Then I thought, oh, they've probably repurposed the sockets for the special case of BR to BR?

[bruno]

Why are things never simple :-)
Andy, I apologise for keeping you up till 3am!
I did wonder if it is a continuous clock signal or a message in the packet? If a continous signal, that raises the possibility of creating a speed knob for the BR (that would be cool) :-)
I will probably perservere with S/PDIF as it really records the Kemper well, and avoids matching levels, particularly when recording stereo out from the Kemper. Although XLR's out is also very good. This is one of those things to check if you are hooking up digitally, I guess.
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[64Guitars]

The BR-1600 manual says on page 35:

Only digital audio data of the S/PDIF format can be input via this connector; furthermore, the data must have a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and a bit depth of 16 or 24 bits.

Page 261 says:

The digital input signal must be of S/PDIF format with a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. No other types of digital audio can be input.

And the specifications page says of both the Digital In and Digital Out connectors: "S/PDIF 16–24 bit (coaxial type)".

So it's not surprising that the BR works perfectly when the Kemper is set to 44.1 kHz, 24 bit and misbehaves when the Kemper is set otherwise.

[StephenM]

And Stephen, Out to Out?!?!? At first I was thinking what?!?!? Then I thought, oh, they've probably repurposed the sockets for the special case of BR to BR?

Andy, it's a good thing I had a document telling me how to set this master slave thing up because at least to me it was anything but intuitive...but it works...lol... and it works well.... I would say though that I would not recommend this to someone just learning the machine....you really have to have a good understanding of the BR before trying this I think...

[64Guitars]

Interesting....
I am using two BR's as Master and slave....oddly enough the documents have me connect the digital out to the digital out (on both units)....

Which documents say to connect out to out? This one from the Boss Knowledge Base says slave out to master in:

Connect the DIGITAL (COAXIAL) OUT of the second "Slave" BR-1600CD to the DIGITAL (COAXIAL) IN of the first "Master" BR-1600CD.

[StephenM]

Interesting....
I am using two BR's as Master and slave....oddly enough the documents have me connect the digital out to the digital out (on both units)....

Which documents say to connect out to out? This one from the Boss Knowledge Base says slave out to master in:

Connect the DIGITAL (COAXIAL) OUT of the second "Slave" BR-1600CD to the DIGITAL (COAXIAL) IN of the first "Master" BR-1600CD.

****** STEP 5 64...... AND THEN A NOTE THAT GOES WITH IT.... AND THIS WORKS BECAUSE I USE IT....

Dual-BR-1600CDs – A 16-Track Recording / 32-Track Playback Solution

An Application Note by Gene Cookmeyer

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http://www.topsoundproductions.com

Since the Boss BR-1600CD's Version 2 Software release in the year 2005, the BR-1600CD has actually been a 16-track simultaneous recording / 32 track simultaneous playback solution if you happen to have access to two of the units. Didn't know this was possible? You are probably not alone.

We're not sure this has been heavily marketed by Boss that we 've seen, but it was in their press release at the announcement of the BR-1600 Version 2 Software [1]. This article discusses how to setup and use two BR-1600CD units in this configuration.

Equipment and Accessories Needed

Use of the 16-track simultaneous recording capability is documented in the BR-1600 Version 2 Additional Functions manual [2]. To use two BR-1600CDs in this configuration, you'll need the following:

• Two BR-1600CD units
• A MIDI Cable
• A short S/PDIF cable

To fully utilize this configuration's maximum functionality, we highly recommend you have the following:

• A small submixer with at least two stereo inputs
• Proper cabling to connect either the line-out jacks on the BR-1600CD or one of the headphone jacks to the submixer
• A set of headphones for the recording engineer

Optionally, we recommend that you have the following:

• A headphone amplifier (connected to the output of your submixer)
• A setup of headphones for all musicians
• An Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) suitable of keeping power to both BR-1600CD units in case of power-outage during your recording session.

The reason we recommend the submixer is because you want to be able to monitor via headphones all tracks being recorded at times, and this will allow you listen to both sets of inputs on both BR-1600CD units simultaneously.

Recording Setup

Follow these steps to setup your 16-Track Recording setup:

1. Connect the power cables to both BR-1600CD units and power them on.

2. Select one unit to be your MASTER unit and make a note of this mentally. The PLAY and STOP buttons on this unit will start and stop both units in this configuration respectively. The other unit will be called the SLAVE unit.

3. Connect the MIDI cable to the MIDI OUT port on the MASTER unit.

4. Connect the other end of this cable to the MIDI IN port on the SLAVE unit.

5. Connect the S/PDIF cable to the DIGITAL OUT connectors on BOTH units. Note that the DIGITAL IN connector is never used in this configuration so you are reading this correctly. The first time we read this in the Version 2 Additional Functions manual we had to re-read it to make sure we read it correctly.

6. On the MASTER unit – do the following:

a. Press [UTILITY]
b. Select the SYNC icon and press [ENTER/YES].
c. Move the cursor to the "Sync Generator" option and select "MTC" using the TIME/VALUE dial.

7. On the SLAVE unit – do the following:

a. Press [UTILITY]
b. Select the SYNC icon and press [ENTER/YES].
c. Match the MTC Type setting on the SLAVE to whatever is set on the MASTER.
d. Set the MTC Slave option to ON.

Now when the play button is pressed on the MASTER BR-1600CD both units will stay synchronized (after a little time-synchronization delay period immediately after pressing play).

At this point we usually do the following to setup both units for recording 8 tracks simultaneously:

1. Connect everything you'll be recording in preparation for level calibration. Note that you don't have to record all inputs, so you can disable tracks for unused inputs. However remember that the inputs map directly to each flashing RED (armed) track, in order from left to right (e.g. if tracks 1 and 3 are armed to record, you need your inputs on input 1 and 2).

2. On both units push the "Multi-track" input button.

3. On both units push the EFFECTS buttons and select P010 (8 Channel Limiter) .

4. Press EXIT on both units.

5. Adjust the gain levels on each of the inputs as hot as possible (red LED lights up only occasionally) while people play their instruments.

6. Set your input level master knob on each unit to about 3/4

7. On both units push the level calibration button and have everyone sing/play their instruments they way they will during the song.

8. Push CALCULATE on both units.

9. Press EXIT on both units.

10. Press REC on each unit.

11. Press PLAY on the MASTER unit to start recording.

Creating a Headphone Mix

Page 258 of the BR-1600CD User Manual discuss "Automatically adjusting the input volume balance (Level Calibration)". However, this only applies to the monitored sound (i.e. headphone mix) if INPUT SELECT is set to REC DRY. Theortically you could use this for a headphone mix, but due to the fact that we're using the 8 channel limiters preset, it actually selects the recording level of each input. Too hot a signal will result in distortion (as we've done accidently when musicians don't play their instruments during level calibration to the volume they end up playing them during the actual song).

Since we use the 8 channel effects for limiting, we can't use the level calibration for a headphone mix and need to circumvent this limitation. Luckily there is a way. Do the following:

1. Disconnect the right output from each of the BR-1600CDs from your submixer used for headphone monitoring.

2. Adjust your headphone amplifier to make a MONO headphone mix.

3. Use the PAN selection on each input source on your BR-1600CDs to select how loud the input is. Panning an input to the right will lessen the volume but not affect the recording of the track (it is recorded in mono anyway).

Overdubs

We usually track the entire band once and go back and do individual parts or additional vocal parts on separate V-Tracks. To select a different V-track for a track you use the V-TRACK button on the front left of the unit to select an alternative track.

You'll need to rewind your project to the point you'll be overdubbing, and re-arm any tracks you want to record for each take you do. Also note that the order of the inputs must match what tracks you're arming which can complicate things a bit.

For example, if you recorded a snare drum on INPUT 1/TRACK 1 during the first take and will be recording vocals on TRACK 5 during the second take, the actual input source that will apply (if this is the only track being recorded) is INPUT 1. Where this is a hassle is that you've already set your input trim and level calibration for the SNARE drum, so you have to re-adjust these inputs for the second take.

What we usually do to deal with this situation is follow the following process:

1. Record good takes of ALL songs being recorded for the session. Since we use the BR-1600CD for mobile recording, usually this is 3 or more songs with multiple takes possible and each take we set a MARKER so we can jump between them later. Keep good notes as to which take will be kept or tossed. we sometimes use the UNDO button if we know we're going to throw away a take.

2. After you have good takes of all songs, go back and do overdubs individually. Then we can set the input trim according to the overdub instrument and re-calibrate the input as needed.

You can switch between multi-track, guitar, vocal and stereo modes if needed, but remember this will likely change your recording effects used while tracking. We try to record everything dry except possibly if the limiter clicks in, because we generally put all effects on instruments during the mixdown process. Sometimes we use external channel strips for vocals and record the processed output of the channel.

Mixdown

We don't use the BR-1600CD for mixdown because we prefer the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) environment. For us, once I've gotten the recordings completed, we save our project and shutdown our BR-1600CD units properly (VERY IMPORTANT - see the user's manual on how to shutdown so you don't lose your project data). Once we get back to our studio, we use our two-BR-1600CD version of our WAV-MAKER-1600 utility (this is a beta version available for use by existing WAV-MAKER-1600 customers) to convert the project folders directly into tracks we can work with in our DAW using the USB functionality of the BR-1600CD.

However, if you plan on mixing down directly on the units themselves it is possible to do so. We haven't formally done this so here is our guess on how you would do this:

1. Keeping everything connected to a submixer, you can pan tracks left and right as you're mixing to get the stereo spread you're looking for. Since tracks are spread across two units, you'll need to set the volume levels on your submixer to make both units approximately the same.

Note that it is possible to use inputs 7 and 8 on the MASTER to submix the SLAVE BR-1600CD's main output while mixing without using an external submixer. See page 266 of the user's manual for information on the "Audio Submix" function.

2. Mix your project using any of the processes and effects you would normally do so.

3. At some point you'll need to get your tracks from your SLAVE unit over to your master, so what we would recommend doing is:

a. Bounce tracks on the MASTER unit down to a stereo pair – these will be on tracks 9/10 after completing this step.

b. Connect the LINE OUTs of your SLAVE unit to TRACK 1 and 2 of your MASTER unit. Properly set your input trim and input levels.

c. Record the stereo mix of your SLAVE BR-1600CD unit on your MASTER unit.

d. Move tracks 9/10 on your MASTER unit to tracks 11/12.

e. Mute all tracks except 1/2 and 11/12 and Bounce to a new STEREO track on 9/10.

f. Master your recording and voila! You are done!
Conclusion

The 16-Track recording capability of Dual Boss BR-1600CD units is relatively straightforward once you have a little experience using this configuration. Mixdown on the units appears to us to be more of an effort than mixing in a DAW environment, but certainly is possible to do so. When you consider the PROS and CONS of the BR-1600CD you must take note of the fact that when you look at 16-Track simultaneous recording solutions, this solution is still certain cost-attractive to other solutions that are available out there.

Top Sound Productions has been using this configuration of BR-1600CDs as our mobile recording platform for recording 16 tracks in remote environments since 2005. Even today we continue to use this configuration for our mobile recording, because it remains fairly portable and helps minimize the amount of equipment we need to bring to each recording gig.

Happy Recording!
BR-1600CD is a trademark of Boss Corporation

References:

[1] Harmony Central: Messe Preview: BR-1600CD Version 2 Software

[2] User Manuals for the Boss BR-1600CD
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