debate Lyrics versus music in a song

[Jean Pierre]

Dans un autre topic de Collaboration (Folk song collab anyone?)
Stephen said
Quote
for me singing and lyrics are almost part of the music and so I really don't hear words right away usually anyway....and often I cry, moved to deep emotion when it is all just music (like in a foreign language that I don't know)....

...It's a very interesting reflexion,  and by the way I'm going to open a new topic/debate

Lyrics versus music, in a song 

for my part I share Stephen's impression
I appreciate in a song, before the lyrics, the melody, the ruthmic harmonic construction, in short the music.

...for several reasons: French-speaking (worst French!) I was lulled by British and American Anglo-Saxon music, like many teenagers around the world in the 50s and 60s: rock, blues, folk...
Speaking and understanding English very badly, it's of course the music that attracted me in the first place: with my group, which emulates rolling stones, we sang Route 66 without understanding a single word!...worse, we didn't even have the text of the lyrics (there was no internet!) and we sang in a phonetic language that was called in France "le Yaourt".
Things have changed, but the fact remains that many things have changed:
-Even when listening to a song in French, I often only understand one word out of 3, so many singers who articulate badly!
Another point to consider (for me) is the poverty of the lyrics, very often...there are in fact quite few songs with text (..but there are some).

un exemple de texte magnifique en français :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOMblsHP1kw


What is your opinion on the matter?

[Ray Brookes]

This is a subject that has been debated for many years, JP. Personally speaking I think that to present a good song the lyrics AND the music production needs to be strong. I can not listen to 'songs' that vomit out garbage lyrically and alternatively I can not listen to trashy music, even if the lyrics are good.

It would've been interesting singing 'Route 66' without understanding a word of the text! It would've been like me trying to sing an Edith Piaf song in French and not having a clue what the song was about LOL They tried to teach us kids French in school and I thought I was doing ok with it until I went across the English Channel for a day-trip to France. Nobody there could understand a word I was trying say as my French was so poor.

[Ferryman_1957]

I'm with Stephen on this. The vocals and the way they are sung as just as important as any instrument, the lyrics to me are secondary. I enjoy a well-written lyric and good lyrics can really enhance a song but there is plenty of foreign language music I love where I have no idea what the lyrics are saying. One of my favourite bands in the 1970s was the Sadistic Mika Band from Japan who sung entirely in Japanese and, like you with Route 66, I happily sang along with no idea what the noises I making were all about.

And of course, let's not forget bands like the wonderful Cocteau Twins. Liz Fraser sings nonsense with occasionally recognisable words, yet their music lets me conjure up wonderful images and feelings for me. Here's a great example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KnYw4EwYGc

[bruno]

Debate on I say :-)

So, lyrics have never really been at the fore front of music for me, I've always listened to sounds and chord voicings first and foremost. I've often had favorite songs, of which I have no idea on what they are about. It may be something to do with my classical/orchestral  background. Don't get me wrong, l love hearing a great and clever lyric in a song, however its always been music and sounds first for me, and a great lyric is an added bonus on top of the music, at least for me. I never really got poetry at school!

You may say, then all I should listen to then is instrumentals, however the voice is a beautiful instrument. For example, I love hearing Gregorian chants in an old church, there is something magical. Sung in Latin, you know its got something to do with God, however the sound is magnificent, and I really haven't got a clue about which they are singing about, it could be about the next bowl of gruel for all I know.

Lyrics always come after for me, if I like a song, then I will probably read the lyrics, although sometimes I wish I hadn't! I almost never read the lyrics first. I liked the sounds and the music, even if the lyrics are nonsense, its doesn't put me off, although crass lyrics will make me laugh.

I guess this must make me a bit of a pleb, but it is what it is!

B

[thetworegs]

I'd agree music first then lyrics unless the lyric is in front of me then I'll read it as I listen to the song but mostly I only catch a glimpse of what the song is is about from the lyrics. mostly it's the music which holds my attention the most on the first few listens but saying that I do hold the vocal as another instrument if the sound of the voice is wrong then the synergy of the track is destroyed as the individual sound of a vocal can change the vibe of a track and also the lyrics have to fit the sound/vibe of the track or they don't  work for me. When I write lyrics I get the feel of what I want to write about from the vibe of the music or chord sequence which normally gives me the idea for the lyrics. so finally the music is the important bit the clothes of a track the lyrics are the shoes that get the track up and walking well that my opinion anyway

[Jean Pierre]

Very interesting answers!...thanks to Thetworeg, Bruno, Ferryman, Ray Brookes

Give your opinion on the question, then I will make a small analysis and synthesis

[TPB]

Being a lyric guy my first impression was to say lyrics but after thinking about it,  it is the combination of the music with the lyric usually the reason you remember a lyrical phrase  melody hook that accompanied it. Where would we be with we will we will rock you with the stomping and the music
Tim

[Farrell Jackson]

It's the chicken or the egg debate of which came first, lol. Sometimes I write the music first and sometimes I don't. Sometimes they happen simultaneously. Lyrics are important to me, as is the music, but I do like it when people post them up so I can read along as the song plays. In my opinion, a good melody can make bad lyrics seem good but a bad melody can break good lyrics. The voice is just another instrument mixed in with the other instruments and they all have to work together to be successful. This topic is prefect timing for the goal I've currently set upon of writing 12 lyrics in 12 days. Then I'll put them to music. I'm sure I'll be adjusting the lyric as I discover the music. This is a new approach for me so time will tell if it works out.

Farrell   

[Ferryman_1957]

Where would we be with we will we will rock you with the stomping and the music
Tim

With some pretty lame lyrics IMO .A great example of where the music (the beat, the amazing chorus and some nice heavy guitar chords) coupled with Freddie's vocal performance really make the song a classic.

[Mike_S]

In my opinion, a good melody can make bad lyrics seem good but a bad melody can break good lyrics.
Farrell 

I think I don't pay too much attention to the lyrics on first or second listen (maybe depending on the type of music), but if I really like a song I then start to listen to the lyrics a bit closer and if they are good it does indeed add some icing on the cake. I think as I get older I pay a little more attention to lyrics and they can do a lot for me. When I was a young guy though I never really gave a shit about lyrics I don't think. I do like individual powerful phrases in a song, sometimes a line or two will really resonate with me even if I don't know what the song is about.

Just on what Farrell is saying about a good melody making bad lyrics seem good. Not sure I go along with that to be honest. I feel a decent song can die a death with bad or clichéd lyrics. If the lyrics are below a certain standard they can make me cringe regardless of the song quality.