I plan to get better at songwriting by doing a lot of it....

[WarpCanada]

So I admire songwriters who have mastered the craft a lot.  I'll mention a few I think are masters, and who each have something that I will never have, but who are the reason I want to write songs:

- Paul Simon
- Bruce Cockburn
- Steve Earle
- Lucinda Williams

And hundreds more.

But the thing is you don't even start out as mediocre, at least if you're me, you don't. You start out just getting over the hump of getting over your own self criticism, your feelings that you can't do this and that you shouldn't bother.   I am not trolling for sympathy here, as I'm 50 and I'm too old for that.  But I am here on this forum because I wonder if there are people who feel the same way as me?  That the process of getting better at this looks a lot like just doing it over and over again, and getting gradually, almost imperceptibly better.

I play guitar, and piano, and I sing, for my own amusement, and this year I've started writing songs, and writing lyrics.

Here's a sample of an instrumental bit which I built around a guitar loop, and added some "chiptunes" bleepy-bloopy synth bits to. It's in no way typical for me, because I tend to bounce all over the place.  One day I want to make some moody treated piano thing, another day I want to make some rather loud rock guitar driven stuff.

This one does kind of show the typical way I like to add synth bass and synth treble bits on top of a mid-heavy guitar loop...

https://soundcloud.com/warren-postma/at-the-arcade-with-tim

My WEAKEST area so far is my lyric writing.  I have high standards from the musicians I admire.  Where does someone like Paul Simon get it from?  "Losing love is like a Window in your Heart / Everybody Sees you're Blown Apart".   I just feel that song, right down inside.   It's brilliant.

Has anyone taken lessons on songwriting from a mentor? How did it go?  Any thoughts on my random ramblings above are welcome.

Warren from British Columbia

[Hilary]

Welcome Warren. I never feel like I'm good enough at this ever! I guess you've got to hold on to what makes you unique and focus on that. I go through phases, at the moment it's all very instinctual - I like writing in the dark because I'm just trying to connect with an energy and capture a moment. I press record and keep going until there's something there. I can't play an instrument and I can't even sing much but I can deliver a line convincingly and I'm trying to be more me.

I did a lyric writing course ages ago - whether it's still available I don't know and there are some good songwriting videos on Youtube, I also analysed quite a lot of songs when I first started, I think it's good to know as a background but not entirely necessary.

[AndyR]

Sorry... this has turned into a bit of an epic!!!

Go with what Hilary's saying.

BTW - I LOVE what you're doing at the moment Hilary - so I'm not at all surprised to hear what you say your approach at the moment is: "I'm trying to be more me". It's working, you're saying stuff that speaks to people.

That's how it's always worked for me. I'm 57 now, and I've been writing songs since I was 14. I actually picked up a guitar so I could accompany my voice, and for some reason I went into it with the idea that you're meant to be able to write your own songs... so that's what I did. My attitude has always been "so-and-so is human, I'm human, he/she can do it, I ought to be able to do it too..."

Before I got the guitar, I used to make up verses to songs I liked while I was playing with my toy soldiers. Remember "Billy Don't Be A Hero"? I sang that non-stop for hours one morning, making up stories of the soldiers coming up off the beach in my "d-day landing" scenario spread all over the living room... By the end it had a new tune and hundreds of verses. But I was just playing. The only reason I remember this is because my Nan (whose house I was in) made such a big thing of it to my Mum after she'd spent the morning cooking and listening to me.

Basically, I get moved by other people's songs (and books, and films, and paintings), sometimes very moved. And I want to create stuff that moves me like that. When I was younger, I used to regularly think "I want to hear a song, but it doesn't exist yet" so I'd write it. I don't tend to do that now, I just "do what I do" when the mood takes me.

I've always written about something that affects me. Sometimes it's something autobiographical, about me and my own experience, sometimes it's external to me. Sometimes, often actually, I'm actually writing to someone, a secret message that they may or may not hear or understand. But whatever form it is, it's always something that moves me in some way.

A few song posts back, I recorded and posted a version of the second song I ever wrote (Please Excuse Those Words That I Said) I'll use that as an example because I'm not at all concerned now about being open about how much of it is me or not. It was 1978, I was 15, songwriter-wise I was into The Beatles and (more so) the 60s version of The Bee Gees. I was broken-hearted because of meeting this 14 year-old girl on holiday and then she had to go back to the States. It was actually a requited-love: we got separated just as it dawned on both of us that "oh wow! this is what it's like!!". But for song purposes back then, I treated it as an unrequited-love. It contains a mixture of absolute truth about me and my feelings and some of what happened, and a whole bunch of "poetic license" - in other words, it's padded lyrically with whatever it took to fit it in somehow, make it rhyme, and to finish it. I didn't know what I was doing, I just squeezed it out as best I could. In fact, that's all I ever do.

Like Hilary says - go for being more "you". Be instinctive. Don't be afraid of putting something of yourself into what you create, it seems to make the created thing better.

Also, like you say - do a lot of it. Some people argue that if you write a song a day then you'll get 20-30 crap ones and a hit. I'm not sure I agree, but I do know that if you are "in practice" at completing lines and ideas, then it's a LOT easier when the idea is a good one. If you haven't written for months and you get a fantastic idea, the odds are you won't be able to finish it or finish it as well as you could have if you'd been in practice.

Also, this might sound odd at first, but "get arrogant" that what you have to say is worth hearing. That's the bit Paul Simon has that makes him different from those ordinary mortals who don't write songs... Whether we like his stuff or not, whether we rate him higher or lower than another songwriter, is all a matter of personal taste.

But the thing that Paul Simon has over you right at the moment is the "arrogance" to think that others might want to hear the "Paul Simon take" on a particular subject/emotion. I have the "arrogance" to think that folks might want to hear the "Andrew Russe take" on a particular subject/emotion. What we both have (hopefully) is the humility to accept that some folks will actively reject our take on it. And, after that, the confidence to bounce back from the rejection to accept that it's ok, because it's their choice and, besides, someone else has already liked it anyway... so, "I'm still ok".

All people that have become songwriters had to have woken up one day and gone, for some reason, "hey! you know what, I can write some songs so that other people can hear them" ... After that when you've actually written one, it always seems really presumptuous to say "er, I got a song I wrote, would you like to hear it?" ... that NEVER goes away... or, at least, not in my experience. And then the self-critic inside is always ready to take over, condemn us, and we stop because we think everything we've made is rubbish...

So yeah, don't actually be arrogant, but do tell yourself "I'm worth listening to". Start assuming that everything you think is finished is ready for others to hear. They can make their own mind up, you don't have to deprive them of the choice before they've even heard it!

One other thing, I firmly believe a song isn't finished until it's in the listener's head. Unlike a painting, which I also do sometimes, the listener finishes a song for you, you will NEVER hear your song completed, only the listener does - and it's slightly different for each listener, sometimes even each listen.

With a painting, there it is on the wall, we can all see it and react to it.

Songs are different beasts. They are amazing magical triggers and manipulators of emotion and intellect inside us. And their very substance changes with the life-experiences and moods that the listener brings.

You can spend as much effort as you want trying to get the clever, concise, whatever, lyric... and then a listener can quite legitimately hear a completely different story - you wrote sad, they hear happy and hopeful, etc, etc. So don't get TOO stressed over getting it "right" - if it's finished and has no howling clunkers that trip the listener up and make him or her pause, then it's often right enough.

AND, if a listener does "misinterpret" your song - NEVER EVER correct them... If you do, you make the song smaller for them. They liked it for one reason, and you've taken that reason away and also proved to them that, in their mind, you didn't write it clearly enough in the first place (I learnt this at a Jethro Tull gig when Ian Anderson insisted on correcting the bassist's interpretation of one of the songs on the new album at the time... I suspect that everyone in the audience who knew the song thought the same as me... "oh" ... and then he repeats it in the tour program! Way to kill a song, Ian!)

Sorry, I've been waffling... to finish, here's my take on external resources/help, what you actually asked(!):

Mentors: On songwriting, I've only ever found one. I was friends with a music teacher years ago (I was bass in a church worship band, he was one of the pianists). He was moved, by something I did when playing the bass or improvising a vocal, to change something in one of his songs. That possibly unlocked the ability to critique each other's stuff. He had far more music theory than I did at the time. But I was further ahead than him on other stuff such as performance. I could play him a song and he'd go "nice, but it's all a bit same-y, why don't you put the middle 8 in a different key... no, an unrelated key, no modulation, just plonk and then plonk back after it, no warning, you'll just have to learn to pitch it ok in the vocal..." - he was SO right.

I have no idea how you'd find such a person. For me it would need to be someone you can spend time with and learn to trust. Especially lyrics... Songwriting's such a personal thing.

Courses: I've never been on one myself. A good one would be VERY useful if you're in the right place for it. For me, the "right place" is knowing BOTH of the following: A) really it's about self-expression and therefore trust your own instincts, don't do/change something just cos someone else says so, and B) there are a lot of established tricks/rules/conventions, those are good too, it's worth hearing the established wisdom and giving it a go sometimes.

I did consider a residential songwriting weekend a year or two ago (with Dean Friedman, remember "Lucky Stars"?) we were still wondering when this covid stuff came along... who knows, maybe if we all live to tell the tale? I still might be tempted.

I have run a songwriting workshop for 14-18 year-olds at a music camp in the late 90s. I did it with my bassist at the time. That was an eye-opener. Turned out the bass-player understood more than he'd been letting on, even to himself... and the eager teenagers proved to us how easy it was to write songs and then perform them a day or so later... actually, that was stunning, I'd forgotten that.

Books: I have some books about songwriting that helped me a few years ago when I started making music again. They helped me improve and get going again faster. But again, you need to be in the right place - aware that it's you and your stuff, but that other folks have some good suggestions too.

Actually, for me, for lyrics, a book is probably the best way - I can ignore it or use it!

The impression I got was that I accepted the advice if it was speaking about an area where I already had experience of getting stuck. I also accepted advice on obvious things that I'd never even considered (eg when you've finished, find every occurence of the word "just"...wtf, how many?! Remove them all LOL). But any advice that involved a bunch of effort (practice) for unknown return of dubious value (to me)... er... the book's still on the shelf if I ever need it!!

Films: Now don't laugh at this, this is possibly the most important thing in this post... NO! Seriously, I mean it... There's a romcom called "Music and Lyrics" starring Hugh Grant and Drew Barrymore.

For a lesson in songwriting it is utterly utterly BRILLIANT. My wife bought the dvd years ago having seen it in the cinema. I thought YUKK!!! But I was SO wrong. It's very entertaining anyway, but the more I watch it, the more I realise how much songwriting wisdom there is in the story of "Way Back Into Love" (which is a gorgeous GORGEOUS song, possibly one of my favourites).

[Hilary]

Music and Lyrics is on Netflix. There are some good documentaries about artists too - Ian Drury, Lady Gaga 5fr 2, and Taylor Swift - they all show their songwriting processes - Ian Drury had a book of phrases and ideas that came to him which I've been doing "share a breath" in Stronger - I've got one that isn't finished yet with "pussyfooting around".

[T.C. Elliott]

Here are a few thoughts to start.

Mentors: The nice young lady who leads our local NSAI song circle is a mentor, but she probably doesn't know it. She's someone that I can bounce ideas off of. If I share a song she'll bring up what she thinks about it in a positive light. She'll be critical but she will never be demeaning. She'll say things like, 'If you want to.... then I would...." For instance, 'If you want to pitch this song then I would probably change structure so it is more radio friendly. And I would get to the chorus more quickly. I would try to find a way to say this that's new, unique or at least doesn't use the same cliche we've all used many times."

Books: I've read many books. I have a few that I've never gotten around to reading. They can be awesome.
Videos: Tons of good ones. Tons of bad ones, too.

Writing lots of songs:  I also write quite a few songs a year. So the lesson is. Just writing songs, even lots of songs, by itself won't make you a great songwriter. You will improve (at least a little), but (as with most things in life) you get out what you put in. So the key is (1) writing lots of songs WHILE experimenting, learning, trying things out, testing things, implementing things you've watched or read. The more you push the boundaries the better. You literally need to try new things. A lot.

(2) Give yourself restrictions. Start a song with the bass line. If you normally write music and then fit words to it then start with a lyric and put it to music. (Or vice versa.)  Write a melody using only three notes. Write a melody that uses at least two passing tones or borrowed notes (outside the scale.) Find a painting and write a song that makes you feel the same as the painting. Use an instrument you've never played before. Use an instrument in a way it was not intended to be used. Try a new structure (start with a chorus etc.,)

(3) Collaborate.. a lot. The more you write with others the more you learn. Everyone is unique and has their own perspective. Borrow theirs.

(4) Don't be afraid to suck. Give yourself permission to suck. Literally give yourself the freedom to write a bad song. Sometimes we learn more from writing a bad one than a good one. With a good one you end up chasing your tail trying to do it again. With a bad one you can learn from it.  As an exercise, take a bad song (yours or someone else's) and see if you can make it better. Figure out what it is about the song that you don't like and change it. This can be wonderfully enlightening and it can also be pretty gut wrenching (especially if you use your own songs.)

(5) Finish what you start. You ever have that idea and jot it down or record a few seconds of it only to come back later and wonder what you were so excited about? Finish what you start. At least get a working version of it that you can work on later. If you don't you just might lose that spark of inspiration.  This is especially true about bad songs. FINISH IT. You don't have to share if you don't want to.

(6) "You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club." - Jack London    Find a writing spot. Find a writing time. Be consistent, as consistent as you can. Make it a habit. Train yourself to open the spigot with less effort. You do this by being nice to yourself. Treat yourself as if you were someone you had to take care of. That means being stern sometimes. Being loving sometimes. But always be supportive.

[WarpCanada]

Wow this is great!  SO Much to digest.

First, the thought of being more myself, that's exactly it. 

Secondly:

> AND, if a listener does "misinterpret" your song - NEVER EVER correct them...

Exactly.  One of the things that I love for example in U2's songs is that I can put myself into the song. There is space for that.

I read a book about Andrei Rublev, a writer (what they call them instead of painters) of Icons, and it said that in one of his most important works, the subject of which was the Trinity, a theological and mystical part of many parts of the Christian tradition, there was an empty space, represented as a hole in the side of a table which might be said to be "room for us".

I like the idea that a great song makes room for us.  Leonard Cohen left a little space in his work.  So did Tom Petty. So does Bruce Springsteen.
So shall I.

Thanks everyone. There's enough here to think about and mull for days.

[Mike_S]

I think the best thing about this site is everyone is on here to be a part of the community, listening, commenting and sharing music and ideas. It's not like most other sites that a lot will try and fool you into thinking you can make it big by signing up. Most of these sites don't have anything like the friendly atmosphere that you get here. It's just full of people thinking or hoping to become famous. Nothing really wrong with that per se but it's nice to really give people some time along the way.

The cool thing here too is that nobody is too judgemental. We are all on different musical journeys and getting enjoyment out of sharing our songs and giving and receiving feedback. How proficient somebody is is kind of not the point to a degree, although if you listen to a selection of songs (I guess you must have already) it's obvious there is a ton of talent on here. In fact for me I can honestly say it is the number one place on the web for musical creativity. Nobody is constrained by obligations to sound like this or that. We wake up in the morning and simply just put our ideas out there in so far as each of us is comfortable doing.

Speaking for myself I have no idea how good or bad I am at writing songs. It is too subjective. I mean in comparision to some my efforts are probably not very good at all, but sometimes I am happy with the results. But if you think about the true meaning and spirit of "music" I think it is supposed to be inclusive, so the act of getting something down on the page and putting it out there has to be commended.

Through the years I suppose most of us must get better and learn stuff along the way. I am self taught, have zero musical training and that's not going to change now. I think/hope I have a good ear and enjoy tinkering around with songs. Sometimes I think a lack of being schooled formally can be an advantage as really you end up experimenting almost all of the time as you have no embedded reference points that you might be tempted to fall back on, but I also admit this could be wishful thinking on my part!

But I guess my main point is don't be shy, don't talk yourself out of putting a song out there if you think it's not perfect. We are not looking for perfection, just to hear what ideas are going on in other songcrafters heads!

Hey... that could be one of my longest posts... hope it's not too off topic!!

[alfstone]

Amen to everything you say, Mike!

Unfortunately due to the actual situation and my job, I haven't been able to put online anything new, and honestly I don't know if and when I will be able again...hopefully with the end of this nightmare, that is more and more scary...but I come here everyday to listen to what's new, and this helps me a lot!

Alfredo

[Hilary]

I can't say I'm an expert in anything but if anyone wants to send me any songs I am happy to listen to bounce ideas off.

I just watching Music and Lyrics 

[WarpCanada]

Yeah.  The thing is I'm not looking to build a giant audience.  But I do think that what this site does is exactly what I want to do: I want to hear other people's songs and I want to share some of mine.

I hope that if I offer a critique it's taken as a helpfully meant thing, as I don't mean to say anything I say is especially objective or valid.  For example, I listened to a song posted yesterday and said "I like everything except the various percussion hits in here".   I thought, that's what I would like to hear from other people; "I liked your lyrics, but your vocals were off, maybe re-record that".

Even if it sounds harsh I would be HAPPY to hear someone say, "you really do need to breathe more when you sing", and stuff like that.
Or, you repeated that guitar lick 80 times, maybe vary that up.

That kind of gentle and kindly meant critique is EXACTLY what I hope we can do for each other.

I am also open to attempting collaborations with folks.