Stacked Loop Effect BR-800

[Picker]

Hey Guys,

I've spent the last hour or so trying to search out this subject and I learned some good stuff, but I have a question about the "Loop Effects".  I think I know the answer but was curious about how you guys deal with this.  So to be clear, I'm talking about the Reverb in the "Track" menu, i.e., press select "Track" and scroll through Pan, EQ, to get to Reverb, as opposed to selecting the COSM effects and editing reverb. 

If I record a guitar part, the "Loop Effect" Reverb is NOT recorded along with the guitar, right?.  But when I bounce......or "Master" on the BR-800, the "Loop Effect" Reverb IS recorded to the new track right?  So I have 2 questions based on this:

1) When I do the final mastering, I would get reverb on reverb on reverb (depending on how many times I have bounced a track), unless I turn down the reverb send for the channel at some point.......is this correct?  Is this something that you all deal with on a regular basis?

2) Does this apply to all the other loop effects, like Chorus/Delay?

Typically I run out of tracks on the BR800 because I physically record (typically) Guitar Left and Right, Vocal, Vocal copy for thickening, Harmony Vocal, Bass, Drums.  So that requires 7 tracks, but in actual fact there are only 6 physical tracks or "faders" on the BR800.   So typically I will bounce guitar L/R on tracks 1&2 over to Track 7/8, with the Pan set to take advantage of the stereo track.  This then frees up 1&2 to record the harmony or double the lead vocal or whatever........but I only just realized that if I don't turn down the reverb on 7&8, I am now applying the effect to the guitars a second time........I think.

Thoughts and comments on your procedures this would be awesome!

[64Guitars]

So to be clear, I'm talking about the Reverb in the "Track" menu, i.e., press select "Track" and scroll through Pan, EQ, to get to Reverb, as opposed to selecting the COSM effects and editing reverb.

I don't think the COSM insert effects include reverb anyway. It's only available as a loop effect.

If I record a guitar part, the "Loop Effect" Reverb is NOT recorded along with the guitar, right?.  But when I bounce......or "Master" on the BR-800, the "Loop Effect" Reverb IS recorded to the new track right?

That's correct. It's due to the position of the effects in the signal chain.

Normal record mode:

     Input ---> Insert effects ---> Record Track ---> Mixer (loop effects) ---> output

Mastering/Bounce mode:
          
      Input -----------> |
      Track 1 ---------> |
      Track 2 ---------> |
      Track 3 ---------> |
      Track 4 ---------> |
      Track 5 ---------> | -----------> Mixer (loop effects) -------> record track pair
      Track 6 ---------> |
      Track 7 ---------> |
      Track 8 ---------> |
      Rhythm left -----> |
      Rhythm right ----> |


In normal record mode, the insert effects are placed before the record track, so they are recorded to the track. But the loop effects are placed after the record track. So you hear the loop effect in your headphones or monitor speakers, but the loop effect is not recorded because the signal has already been recorded before it even gets to the loop effect.

But in Mastering/Bounce mode, you're basically recording the stereo output of the BR's mixer section. This is the same signal that is passed to the headphone jack and the line outputs. So everything you hear is being recorded, including any loop effects.

1) When I do the final mastering, I would get reverb on reverb on reverb (depending on how many times I have bounced a track), unless I turn down the reverb send for the channel at some point.......is this correct?  Is this something that you all deal with on a regular basis?

That's correct. Before you bounce, you should either turn down all of the sends to minimum or set the reverb's Effect Level to minimum.

2) Does this apply to all the other loop effects, like Chorus/Delay?

Yes. However, I believe the send levels for Chorus and Delay default to 0, whereas the reverb defaults to 10%. So, unless you've changed the sends from their default levels, you shouldn't have to worry about chorus and delay. It's only the reverb you'd normally have to worry about since it defaults to 10% and you should reduce it to zero before bouncing.

In most of the BR manuals, Roland includes a Parameter List in the Appendix which lists all of the parameter ranges and their default values. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have included that list in the BR-800 manual. The default loop effect sends for my BR-864 are as follows:

Chorus/Delay/Doubling:  All sends default to 0. Effect levels default to 100%.
Reverb:  All sends default to 10%. Effect level defaults to 50%.

I assume the BR-800 is similar but I have no way to verify it since I don't have a BR-800 and the manual doesn't include a Parameter List.

[Picker]

Thanks 64!  I'm 100% now on the whole concept.  I guess it makes sense the way that have set it up. 

Regarding no Reverb on the insert effect.  I think you are right.  I remember going in to add some reverb and ended up having to add delay instead, didn't have time to question why, I just thought it was not part of that particular patch.

The BR800 defaults the reverb send to 30 (max is 100).  It is also set to 30 on the input, so I guess this means that what you hear as you are recording will be the same as what is played back.  And, yes the chorus/delay (i don't think there is a specific double loop effect) is defaulted to zero.  Looking deeper into the reverb effect, it is defaulted to 50% mix.

Thanks again 64, that was very helpful.

[jp68]

Okay, this is a great post.

It straightened out a misconception that I had. I was under the impression that the "Track" effects (Pan, Reverb, Chorus/Delay) were loop effects and were in front of the recorder, which now I see this is not correct.

However, I believe, that the COSM effects, which are insert effects, i.e., recorded with the instrument, can be used as a loop effect by changing the location of the insert using the (LOCATION) menu.

Am I correct?

[cuthbert]

Insert effects have a Location attribute in most BR recorders (including the BR-800). Location defaults to input source, but can also be applied to individual tracks as well.

Not positive of how that charts in the signal flow, but I think it's similar to 64Guitars' normal record mode illustration. Technically, still different than the loop effects, but a similar ultimate outcome (you can record with insert effects applied to the track).

[64Guitars]

However, I believe, that the COSM effects, which are insert effects, i.e., recorded with the instrument, can be used as a loop effect by changing the location of the insert using the (LOCATION) menu.

Am I correct?

You can change the location of the insert effects, but that's not quite the same thing as a loop effect. If you set the insert effect location to MASTER, for example, the entire mix is routed through the insert effects. But the amount of effect applied to each track is the same. There's no way to control the wet/dry ratio on a per track basis. In fact, there's no dry signal at all since the entire mixed signal is processed by the effects.

But with loop effects, you send only a portion of the signal from each track through the loop effect and control the amount of the effect for each track by adjusting its Send level. The higher the Send level, the wetter (more effected) the signal. This wet signal is then returned to the main signal path for the track where it is combined with the dry signal and sent to the output. This send/return path forms a loop in the signal path, hence the name "loop effect".

Insert effects are "inserted" into the signal path, disrupting it completely so that the entire signal goes through the effect. But with loop effects, the signal is split with one branch going straight through uneffected and the other going through a send level control, then the effect, then returning to rejoin the other branch at the output. Thus, the loop effect signal path combines the dry signal with the effected signal and the wet/dry ratio is controlled by the track's send level.

[jp68]

It straightened out a misconception that I had. I was under the impression that the "Track" effects (Pan, Reverb, Chorus/Delay) were loop effects and were in front of the recorder, which now I see this is not correct.

I mis-spoke here I ment to say that the "Track" (Pan, Reverb, Chorus/Delay) were insert effects, and you guys straighted me out convincing me that they are actually loop effects...  My Bad..

The BR-800 manual says that you can set the COSM effects to occur post record, I believe.. So isn't that the definition of a loop effect?

[jp68]

Thanks 64Guitars...

I believe I understand now...

[64Guitars]

Here's a video that might help. It's not specific to the BR series recorder but it shows the general principal of insert effects versus loop effects and how a single loop effect can be applied to multiple tracks in varying amounts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmTVJRsBU74

[jp68]

Ok Riddle me this;

I have recorded a vocal track "dry" on my BR-800. I now want to apply a loop effect to that track alone. The BR-800 allows you to set the "LOCATION", ie, either "NORMAL", "INPUT", "TRACK", "RHYTHM"  or pre "MASTER" which applies the effect to all tracks just ahead of the mastering effects.

I haven't tried this yet but was wondering if this might work:  Could you select the vocal effect to be used and then set the effect "LOCATION" to "MASTER" then lower all the faders on my other tracks except for my vocal track, then  from the main menu turn "MASTERING" "ON", then making sure that the "Mastering FX" button is turned off master my vocal track down to another free virtual track.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree...