when you begin recording a song, do you have any idea as to what it'll be like?

[Greeny]

there is no 'well it sounds good, so it must be a good song'

In other words, you can't polish a turd!

Even if you roll it in glitter, it's still a turd!

Seriously though, this is what it all comes down to. No matter what genre or era, it's all about the strength of the song. And as history has shown, it's not always the artist / songwriter who can hear the difference between an album track and a chart topping single.

[Greeny]

A very, very long time ago, I used to get totally focused on 'tone'

I still do to an extent with guitar tones, purely for the pleasure of 'auditioning' lots of different sounds and choosing the one that sounds right to me. Somethimes that even extends to what guitar it's played on, although I'll often have an idea of whether it's a Telecaster / Les Paul / Hofner / Danelectro that's required in advance. That's one of the fun jobs (for me) of performing a song though. Guitar tones are so wonderful.

You have a great ear for them, henny. The one you put on 'Bona Fide But Blue' was leftfield yet utterly perfect.

[Greeny]

This thread is starting to feel like a circle of 1970's comfy chairs in a community centre support / addict group!

In a good way!

And if it gets Nigel recording and posting, even better ;-)

[Geir]

And if it gets Nigel recording and posting, even better ;-)

Ditto that!!!!

[AndyR]

I'm with you Henny.

Personally, I don't focus so much on "tone", more on the effect that the sound of a thing has on the overall recording... That does mean I'm having to think about tone sometimes, but most of the time I'm going "is that scrunchy enough?" or "is it to scrunchy?".

The whole thing driving me is the song, and all my decisions are based on me wanting NOTHING to get in the way of the listener's appreciation of it (or, more accurately, how I want to listen to it).

That pretty much means I want everything in place, each as big or as little as seems pleasing, and I don't want anything making the (non-musician) listener go "oh what was that?" - I don't want them seeing the joins, or having to pause to stop their enjoyment because they're wondering whether it's meant to "be like that".

The things I'm fretting over are:
- Can I hear the vocals? Or are they too loud (and therefore removing the rockin vibe)?
- Is the drums rockin? Are they too loud/quiet for the vibe I'm trying to create? Can I get them louder/quieter (as necessary) by fiddling with their EQ or whatever
- Does the bass do it without making itself too obvious? (And does it get lost or, worse, make the speakers go WWWWWWuh on Mr/Ms Bloggs's stereo)
- Does any part suddenly do something that makes you go "what was that?" rather than keep listening to the lovely song (or does a combination of parts cause an artifact that makes you hear something like that)?

etc, etc...

And all this at low listening volumes, or "let's have a decent listen to some music" volumes, or "I'm pissed, f*ck the neighbours" volumes.

The thing I'm most interested in is not creating any (unintentional) unpleasant noises, and making it so everything that should be heard is vaguely hearable.

That's as far as I go on tone, really. I do like the fact I've been gradually learning what the EQ and stuff actually do, and why, because it lets me get to the solutions faster. But that's the end of my interest, it's just tools to me. I'll even happily use the wrong screw-driver (both literally and metaphorically)... For example, I've recently learnt that the fundamental freq of the bass guitar changes with the key we're in... I had a moment of worry, but... really... ummm... yeah... whatever... 50hz still seems to do the job I want when I need to tame the thing, I'll keep using that for the moment (I did try sweeping about a bit, but I couldn't spot a difference. No cut = yuk. Any cut in that ballpark = ok, fixed, let's move on now)

============

No, although we talk about EQ and stuff on here...

The time spent by me on a recording is something actually entirely different, nothing to do with tones... tones come later and without too much care and attention.

What I spend time on is the arrangement, writing parts, trying out different parts, learning to play the things, selecting sounds if the instrument has options (eg different guitars and guitar sounds - distorted, hairy, or clean, etc - I actually regard that as part of the instrument choice, sorted in the rehearsals, rather than part of the recording process).

Some songs seem to arrange themselves easily. The one I'm working on (for me) doesn't. I was planning on a nice bass/drums, one or two guitars, a nice bed of acoustic strummery, and away we go.

I thought that "band" would produce the vibe I wanted. I can hear what I want the song/performance to feel like, but the early ways I was doing it did not produce that vibe at all. A very nice vibe it was, Mrs R liked it like that, but that doesn't matter - I don't. Emotionally it doesn't complement the song I wrote, the song loses it's impact played like that. If the song I was singing over it was different, it would have sounded fantastic, but it's this song, not a different song... Now, if I didn't know I could change this somehow, I might have gone with that vibe and posted it over a year ago. But it sounded like some easy-listening thing with no dynamic punch. All smooth and cute musicianship. I hated it, it had no bite or edge. So I stopped and did something else.

Anyway, I opened the project up again a week or two ago. After much "jamming" with the other "musos" involved (all me, obviously), several sets of "how about this?" guitar and bass parts have come and gone, and I'm finally getting into the right ballpark now (the original guide vox is still there, haven't changed it, not even it's playback settings - and he suddenly sounds like he means it now). It's even possible that some of yesterday's guitars will actually stay on the recording - they hum and scratch a bit, but if the parts turn out to be the right ones, then I tend to sit in the "it all adds to the vibe" camp about guitarist noise, and I don't usually bother cleaning them up

Basically, what I think it is, for my "band recordings" anyway, most of the time I spend is really "band-rehearsals". The musicians (me) listening to each other, bouncing off of each other, and fighting to get their part into the arrangement.

I also have a band-leader, or producer, role - I make the decisions on what goes in. I go to Git1, hey! I like your part, but let's keep it until verse 2 maybe? We need some evolution in the track, and I think that riff has a lot of impact that we can save til 2nd time round - try listening to the lyrics. Then I can go to Git2, yep, your tinkly bit is well-cool, you're in the intro and verse!! I'll record him all the way, but I shan't tell him that he might have his verse 2 performance dumped to let Git1's fab riff in... (and he might have his verse 1 contribution docked as well, if it gets in the way of the singer!)

When it comes to actual recording of parts (if I haven't decided to keep the "dirty" rehearsal takes, I often do), the selection of tones and levels is really quick. In fact, selecting a track to arm for recording probably takes longer!!!

When it comes to bouncing the sub-mixes of, say, guitars to make one guitar track, that's pretty quick too. It's "uh-oh... hmm... all getting a bit thick" - solution: take the bottom off... "hmm, that one sounds too spikey" - solution: squash it with a compressor... things like that.

And, if I can't make a part fit... I throw it away. That's where all the time has gone - playing all the stuff you never get to hear on the record . But that's the same with the records we buy - we don't get to hear the rehearsals, the cute but inappropriate try-outs, the song-writing session itself.

I watched a program about Jeff Lynne a while back. Although I'm possibly a bit like him on the arrangements front, I'm not on the mixing and tone-shaping. I do the parts, quick as poss, make them fit together, then make them fit with the rest of the track - I know they should fit, I've "heard them doing it". But if they won't squeeze in, I tend to think it's not gonna get fixed with tone, I tend to decide the parts were a good idea but on reflection not right for the song, so I give up on them and try something else instead (and sometimes the act of going through all that is enough to show nothing extra was needed anyway - the "boring" thing I was enhancing is actually OK on its own).

[IanR]

I'm the same. Nothing I've ever recorded felt finished. There's always something about it that I think I could improve if I spent a bit more time on it. All of my recordings give me mixed feelings of pride and embarrassment. I think all musicians feel that way to varying degrees. But we reach a point where we get tired of working on the same song and want to start a new song instead. So we convince ourselves that the song is good enough as it is and we release it. I guess that point is reached sooner with some people than with others. I need to work on my songs for quite a long time before I'm reasonably comfortable releasing them. And even then I feel a bit of trepidation because I'm still embarrassed about some aspects of the recording. I want to fix it but I'm tired of working on the same song so I let it go.

I agree with this because it pretty much describes what I do.  I have a good recording set up that I'm still learning how to use.  I have good instruments that I am still learning how to play.  I have lots of songs that I'd like to cover but I can't play them very well.  I write some songs that sometimes sound OK.  And when I record things, sometimes I'll really try to get them as perfect as I can.  But I always run out of patience and I get sick of the song and after a while I have draw the line and move on.  About half of the time I'll post the results but quite often I don't think I have met the standard required to release a song as finished enough so they stay "in the can".

To answer the original question: If I'm recording an original I usually have a song structure worked out and I have to record that before I forget the melody or rhythm (because I have a bad musical memory and can't write in musical notation).  After that I'll experiment with layering etc and if I don't have lyrics I'll sing gobbledegook until I work out the lyric structure and then if I am blessed I'll find some great lyrics in my head and spit them out in tune.  The last thing I usually do is work out a bridge or middle eight and then that leads to recording the final takes.  By then, hopefully I can play the song well enough to sound OK.

cheers

Ian

[AndyR]

I had an epiphany while out getting my lunchtime sandwich.

With all the stuff I've written in this thread so far, I might be concealing this:

I control sound/emotion in recordings through the arrangements, not the "tones". I use the notes, harmonies, and rhythms played by different voices in different parts. Obviously, tone is involved in selecting the instruments, and how you mix them eventually. But it's secondary to the notes played, and how they're played or sung.

And there's something else - When I say I know what a song is going to be like before I've recorded it, and I say I can "hear" the band accompanying me... I can't hear the actual parts, or even know what type of bass part or snare sound is producing it.

What I can "hear" or, more accurately, FEEL and IMAGINE, while I'm writing and singing the thing is this overall vibe of what it would be like to do it live. I can feel the emotions it arouses in me, and I can tell how I want to conduct that power around the room.

For example,I can kind of sense drums augmenting what I'm playing on my acoustic. I can feel what this riff played on the acoustic actually represents - electric guitar and bass and drums. I can feel where I want the band to go kerrangg... I can imagine the drum fill into it - but I can't hear the fill itself, it's like a dream after you've woken up, I couldn't actually tap the fill out, it's more "imaginary" than that, it's there but when you focus on it it disappears.

So "knowing what it's going to be like" before recording isn't strictly true. I know what I want the audience to feel... or, at least, I know what I want to feel like when I listen to it. I want to be able hear the "band" I've been feeling, so I can imagine I'm actually leading it when I listen to it. But I don't know what it's actually going to be "like".

I spend the time looking for the band and arrangement that will give me that feeling to support the song I've written and the way I want to perform it. Selecting and mixing up the sounds for each voice I choose is kind of "oh that'll do" most times. Only if first choice doesn't work do I spend much time looking for a sound. And quite often, what it really means is that the part is wrong, not the sound.

Does that make sense?

I've done it often enough now that I do have several fixed sets of "personnel" to use on a song. A blues-rock band (drums, bass, guitars and maybe some piano and organ) is one of them. In fact, you can probably do anything I want to do with that line-up. I've also got the acoustic guitars and "bass" (stand-up, electric, or an organ) combo. And recently a piano led combo with bass and overdubs as necessary.

When I write, in my usual way, anyway, I'm kind of writing for one of these sets of guys.

When I'm rehearsing the chosen combo and arranging the thing, I'm shaping the sound and the dynamics with the parts that we come up with. I'm kinda assuming the tones and EQ will sort themselves out (they usually do, with a little prod here and there)....

==========

Just before I posted, I realised that this also leads into some thoughts on what IanR and 64G have posted:

I know when I've finished on a recording because I was setting out to do something quite specific in the first place. When I've done that, to whatever degree of success, I have finished.

And I accept it like that.

I know I've said earlier in the thread about old stuff I'd change, but that's just talking about it. I don't feel any need to go back unless I thought it was suddenly going to hit a wider audience. Those songs are as finished as they need to be at the moment. I feel no regrets, I just have a list of stuff I don't want to get wrong again in the same way next time...

On "finishing", I'm wondering whether you guys might be able to find something like that as well? Maybe set a definable goal of what you're trying to achieve with each recording project as you start it, if you're not doing so already. And I mean a goal that's concrete for you, not "as good a recording as I can make of whatever instruments I'm going to record"... (that's going to work really well for some people, but I suspect not for you guys... I'm suspecting you guys veer towards "arrangements" same as I do... and it seems that an "arrangement" approach without a defined emotional goal or set of guidelines is likely to take the thing over)

When I switched from that nebulous goal a few years ago, to more concrete things like "OK, it's a melodic rocker with loud bits and quiet bits, nice edge to it but tuneful, and I'm going to use bass, drums, guitars, and an organ to provide the meat of the thing", I found things got a lot easier. Still time-consuming but easier.

I was no longer going "hey, I don't feel anything with this recording yet, I wonder what I can add to make it better". Instead, I was thinking all I had to do was get the guys licked into shape, according to the vibe I wanted, and record their parts. And then suddenly I was able to know when I'd finished a recording.

I'm sure I'm missing something I ought to be adding to this - but that's all I've got. You don't visualise the actual sounds, you visual what you want to achieve with the finished recording...

(This doesn't apply to guys like orh who have a natural minimalist approach to the ingredients - he's automatically going to put just enough on, grab a vibe off that, and create something beautiful... but us tinkerers and builders of edifices need a little more focus mebbe! )

[Geir]

Does that make sense?

it does. This sounds very much like what I try to do. I too have a "picture" of what the end product will sound like, ..........




......., but where you get your brushes out to paint it, I just get my crayons and fingerpaint


I do have a lot of colours tho

[Oldrottenhead]

i like that analogy geir  . maybe i am like an action painter, cause i have no idea, so i just through the paint and see where it lands  .

[Greeny]

so i just through the paint and see where it lands  .

Pollocks!