Making first BR-80 recording

[Voodoo Chile]

Picked up a used BR-80 and I now want to dive right in.  I've decided to record a song I wrote recently and which my band performs.  Below is my basic plan using the BR-80.  I would appreciate any comments as to my approach etc.

1.  Using a basic rock beat throughout, I plan to first record rhythm guitar.  I will allow two measures as a count-in and then come in with guitar (I always have recorded a two-measure count-in to songs I record).  Question: Can I later go back and redo the drums to "fit" the song better?  Either replacing everything, or just certain measures?  This is my most important question.

2.  Recording bass and another rhythm guitar.  My plan with the rhythm guitars is to pan somewhat left/right for fuller sound.

3.  Begin with vocals - lead (maybe doubled for fullness) and background...

4.  Finish with leads/fills on guitar.

5.  Master.  I have to read up on this process.  I imagine you do a Final mix down to stereo, THEN do the Master.  Correct?

Other questions:

1.  Can you retard the ending as you would live?  That would be a cool thing if so, especially for this particular song.

2.  Since you can't "ride faders" with this unit, if you need, say, a guitar rhythm to drop in volume (during solos, for example), do you just have to know that need to be the case and play/record accordingly?

I do not want to complicate matters with this first time.  Using a song I know will make the playing go much more quickly and I can also use it as a demo for gigs etc.

Thank you for any input.  If you have a tip, please feel free!

-James

[64Guitars]

I will allow two measures as a count-in and then come in with guitar (I always have recorded a two-measure count-in to songs I record).

I do that too. I find that the first measure gives be time to prepare physically. That is, I can press PLAY, then bring my hand back to the guitar and get comfortable and ready to play. Then the second measure allows me to prepare mentally and get a feel for the rhythm so that I can come in at the right place and play in time.

Can I later go back and redo the drums to "fit" the song better?  Either replacing everything, or just certain measures?  This is my most important question.

Sure, as long as you record to a fixed tempo and you don't change that tempo later. I think most of us here do that all the time. We record to a simple drum beat at the desired tempo. Then later, we create a better drum arrangement at the same tempo.

Internally, the drum machine in a BR is essentially MIDI. So the Rhythm track isn't an audio track like tracks 1 through 8. Rather, it's like a MIDI sequencer track. It doesn't record the sound of the drums; it records a sequence of the drum performance so that the sound can be re-created. This allows you to change the drum arrangement any time you like. As long as you don't change the tempo, the drums will be in perfect sync with the audio tracks you've recorded.

My plan with the rhythm guitars is to pan somewhat left/right for fuller sound.

That's fine, but the panned signal is only recorded in bounce mode and mastering mode. In normal record mode while you're recording your individual tracks, you can set the pan anywhere you like. I usually just leave it in the centre. But the BR manual suggests that you can pan previously-recorded tracks to one side so you can better hear the track you're recording. I've never found that very helpful though. I just turn down the levels of the previously-recorded tracks if I want to hear what I'm recording better.

5.  Master.  I have to read up on this process.  I imagine you do a Final mix down to stereo, THEN do the Master.  Correct?

No, not on the BR-80. Roland has changed the way that mastering works. On earlier BR recorders such as my BR-864, it was necessary to bounce everything down to a stereo pair first. That stereo pair would then be the source for mastering. But the Micro BR, BR-800, and BR-80 take a different approach. Instead of specifying a track pair to use as the source when mastering, it just takes the stereo output of the mixer section. So you don't need to use bounce mode to make a stereo mix prior to mastering. Just set all of your track levels, panning, etc. as desired, then enter mastering mode to pass that stereo mix through the mastering effects and record it to a stereo WAV file.

I should also point out that mastering is optional. All it does is pass the stereo mix through the mastering effects before recording it to a stereo WAV file. The mastering effects apply EQ and compression to the stereo mix. Personally, I seldom find that desirable. If I feel that EQ or compression is needed, I would rather apply it to just the tracks that need it, rather than to the entire mix. But that's just me. Most people love the BR's mastering effects, so you should at least give them a try. If you later decide you'd like to make a mix without mastering effects, you can do that using bounce mode. In bounce mode, you specify a destination track pair for the mix rather than a stereo WAV file. You would then use the free BR Wave Converter software to transfer that track pair to the computer as a stereo WAV file.

Can you retard the ending as you would live?  That would be a cool thing if so, especially for this particular song.

I assume you're talking about a gradual slowing of the tempo during the last bar or two of the song. You can do that on the audio tracks. However, the drum track will be a bit of a problem. Each measure in a drum arrangement has a fixed tempo. There's no way to change the tempo within a measure. But you could have the drum arrangement end before the ending and just have a drumless ending, or add drums to the ending manually some other way.

2.  Since you can't "ride faders" with this unit, if you need, say, a guitar rhythm to drop in volume (during solos, for example), do you just have to know that need to be the case and play/record accordingly?

On all previous BRs, you could adjust levels while mixing, even on the original Micro BR which has no faders. Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible on the BR-80. Unless I'm mistaken, you can't get to the track level screen while the BR-80 is in bounce mode or mastering mode because pressing the EXIT button will cancel bounce/mastering mode.

But there is another way. You could do your final mixing on the computer instead of the BR. Just export all of your individual tracks as WAV files using the free BR Wave Converter software. Then import those WAV files into SONAR LE, Audacity, or any other DAW to do your final mixing. This has a lot of advantages besides allowing you to change levels while mixing. For one thing, it allows you to mix an unlimited number of tracks at one time. For example, suppose you've used the BR's bounce mode to create a song containing a total of 20 tracks. To achieve that, you'd have to do two bounces on the BR. But those mixes from the bounces are only used for monitoring while you record more tracks. You don't need to use those mixes in your final mix. Instead, you'd just export the 20 individual tracks and mix them all on the computer.

Another option is to duplicate the rhythm guitar track on the BR and edit it so that it only contains the portion needed for the lead guitar solo. You'd also edit the original rhythm guitar track to silence the part corresponding to the lead guitar solo. Now you can set the levels of those two tracks independently before mastering so you can have a lower level on the track that will play during the lead guitar solo. It's a fair bit of work though. I think it's better to do it on the computer.

[Voodoo Chile]

Can I later go back and redo the drums to "fit" the song better?  Either replacing everything, or just certain measures?  This is my most important question.

Sure, as long as you record to a fixed tempo and you don't change that tempo later.

That's what I thought.  Bummer, but no big deal overall.

My plan with the rhythm guitars is to pan somewhat left/right for fuller sound.

That's fine, but the panned signal is only recorded in bounce mode and mastering mode. In normal record mode while you're recording your individual tracks, you can set the pan anywhere you like. I usually just leave it in the centre. But the BR manual suggests that you can pan previously-recorded tracks to one side so you can better hear the track you're recording. I've never found that very helpful though. I just turn down the levels of the previously-recorded tracks if I want to hear what I'm recording better.

Cool

5.  Master.  I have to read up on this process.  I imagine you do a Final mix down to stereo, THEN do the Master.  Correct?

No, not on the BR-80. Roland has changed the way that mastering works. On earlier BR recorders such as my BR-864, it was necessary to bounce everything down to a stereo pair first. That stereo pair would then be the source for mastering. But the Micro BR, BR-800, and BR-80 take a different approach. Instead of specifying a track pair to use as the source when mastering, it just takes the stereo output of the mixer section. So you don't need to use bounce mode to make a stereo mix prior to mastering. Just set all of your track levels, panning, etc. as desired, then enter mastering mode to pass that stereo mix through the mastering effects and record it to a stereo WAV file.

I should also point out that mastering is optional. All it does is pass the stereo mix through the mastering effects before recording it to a stereo WAV file. The mastering effects apply EQ and compression to the stereo mix. Personally, I seldom find that desirable. If I feel that EQ or compression is needed, I would rather apply it to just the tracks that need it, rather than to the entire mix. But that's just me. Most people love the BR's mastering effects, so you should at least give them a try. If you later decide you'd like to make a mix without mastering effects, you can do that using bounce mode. In bounce mode, you specify a destination track pair for the mix rather than a stereo WAV file. You would then use the free BR Wave Converter software to transfer that track pair to the computer as a stereo WAV file.

All right, all that makes sense.

Can you retard the ending as you would live?  That would be a cool thing if so, especially for this particular song.

I assume you're talking about a gradual slowing of the tempo during the last bar or two of the song. You can do that on the audio tracks. However, the drum track will be a bit of a problem. Each measure in a drum arrangement has a fixed tempo. There's no way to change the tempo within a measure.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about.  Oh well ...

2.  Since you can't "ride faders" with this unit, if you need, say, a guitar rhythm to drop in volume (during solos, for example), do you just have to know that need to be the case and play/record accordingly?

On all previous BRs, you could adjust levels while mixing, even on the original Micro BR which has no faders. Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible on the BR-80. Unless I'm mistaken, you can't get to the track level screen while the BR-80 is in bounce mode or mastering mode because pressing the EXIT button will cancel bounce/mastering mode.

But there is another way. You could do your final mixing on the computer instead of the BR. Just export all of your individual tracks as WAV files using the free BR Wave Converter software. Then import those WAV files into SONAR LE, Audacity, or any other DAW to do your final mixing. [...]

Unfortunately (in this case, at least), I use a Mac, so the SONAR is moot.  I have Audacity, so that might be an option should I choose so.

Another option is to duplicate the rhythm guitar track on the BR and edit it so that it only contains the portion needed for the lead guitar solo [...] I think it's better to do it on the computer.

Yeah, I wish the software was Mac compatible.  I find it strange that they chose one which doesn't cover both platforms.  Oh well ...

Thank you VERY much, 64G, for the valuable input!  Much obliged!


-James

[64Guitars]

Unfortunately (in this case, at least), I use a Mac, so the SONAR is moot.  I have Audacity, so that might be an option should I choose so.

Yeah, I wish the software was Mac compatible.  I find it strange that they chose one which doesn't cover both platforms.  Oh well ...

I'm a Linux user myself, so I can relate to your disappointment at SONAR being a Windows-only DAW. Fortunately, there are plenty of other DAWs you can get for your Mac. A commercial DAW that's popular on the Mac is Logic. A lot of people like GarageBand too, though it's a bit limited by comparison. I'm not sure if GarageBand can import WAV files but it can definitely import AIFF files and, fortunately, the BR Wave Converter software can import and export AIFF files just as well as it does WAV files. So you can use it to export your BR tracks as AIFF files and import those into GarageBand or whatever Mac DAW you choose.

There's also a lot of excellent free audio software available. Audacity is great at what it does and is more than adequate for mixing your tracks. I've used it quite a lot for mixing. Lately, though, I've been using Ardour because I bought a MIDI keyboard controller and wanted to be able to record MIDI sequences (which Audacity currently can't do). There is an OS X version of Ardour available. Another one that looks quite good is Studio One Free from PreSonus. It's available for Windows and Mac.

If you want something that's adequate for mixing but not too difficult to learn, I'd recommend Audacity or GarageBand. If you're more interested in having lots of great features and don't mind putting in lots of time to learn how to use them, then check out Ardour, Studio One, Logic, or any of the other major DAWs available for Mac. A lot of the leading Windows DAWs (Reason, cubase, etc.) have a Mac version available too. A very popular DAW for Windows and Mac is REAPER. It's free to try and relatively inexpensive to buy. And one that looks promising but is not yet available is Bitwig. It's supposed to work with Windows, Mac and Linux!

By the way, I think all Mac and Linux users who buy a BR-80 or BR-800 should complain to Roland about the Windows-only SONAR LE. As much as they'd like us to believe that SONAR is included free, we all know that isn't true. It costs Roland to include it and that cost is factored into the price of the BR. So Mac and Linux users are forced to pay for software they can't use. Roland should ensure that all of the included software works on all three major operating systems. If they can't do that, then they should not include any software and lower the price of the BR accordingly.