New (to me) BR-1600 - Tips and tricks?

[T.C. Elliott]

Any tips and/or tricks to this behemoth? I thought I could get started fairly easily, but....
I might have to buy one of those cd learning things like I did for the 900. I know it wasn't *that* much help, but it surely got me started using the darn thing.

I might just break down and start reading the manual *sigh*


p.s. Wasn't there a poll or something where we listed what recorders we have?

[64Guitars]

Any tips and/or tricks to this behemoth?

It is rather big and heavy, isn't it? I've never used one but I saw it in the local music store once and was surprised by its size and weight. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any tips or tricks. Maybe Blooby or another BR-1600 user will have some. If you need help interpreting the manual, post your specific questions and I'll see if I can help.

I might have to buy one of those cd learning things like I did for the 900. I know it wasn't *that* much help, but it surely got me started using the darn thing.

Not a bad idea. It is pretty good and only costs $29.95, so worth getting.

http://proaudiodvds.com/store/multitrack-recorders/roland-boss-br-1600-dvd-tutorial/

I might just break down and start reading the manual *sigh*

That's also a good idea. Even if you get the video, it's very useful to get familiar with the manual because you can't remember everything, especially with a feature-packed machine like the BR-1600, so you'll probably be referring to the manual often.

p.s. Wasn't there a poll or something where we listed what recorders we have?

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=3107.0

According to the poll results, we currently have 9 other BR-1600 users.

Let me know if you want me to update your signature with a BR-1600 icon. And do you still have the BR-900?

[T.C. Elliott]

Yes, I currently have the 900. I'll be keeping it at least until I'm comfortable with the 1600. It is  *possible* the 1600 becomes too much of a headache and I return it in the next 45 days (although that is highly unlikely.)  It's also possible I"ll keep both machines, but that depends entirely on how well accustomed I become to using the 1600.

I just looked at the .WAV converting process and it will be a change. But with v.2 it looks like you can do all the WAV files at once so it might not be a problem.

Thank you for your kind offer of help. I'm going to TRY and not get frustrated and think things through for myself before running over here. Just so I'm not taking up too much of everyones time with things that should be easy to figure out. But if I get stuck, I know I can come over here for help. That's a huge feeling of comfort and to everyone here I give a big thank you.

[T.C. Elliott]

Quick update on the 1600 (more for my me than any of you so don't feel bad if it's three years from now when you read this.)

The 1600 is different. Very different. I haven't really done much recording on it yet. I've done some one mic, room recordings and I've played with some stuff (no real recordings.) A few things stand out already, though. The WAV conversion is a little iffy. It's not as bad with version 2.0 as it was without it (mine was already upgraded) but you have to manually name the files after they have been converted. It's a different process and I've already had a problem with a track only having audio on the first half of the track with the second half (or so) being blank. I re-converted and it worked fine once I figured out I wasn't going crazy on which track I was trying to convert.  With Version 2.0 you can also do all the tracks in one run, which is what I'm use to but i can't imagine trying to do it one at a time after a marathon vocal recording session of 20 tracks trying to get one good spliced track out of the bunch or mixing in a lot of bgvox.

The same mic I was using on the BR900 is not hitting the peak on the 1600. In other words, when I up the trim knob it won't hit 0 db (which is actually a good thing) but makes me wonder about the A/D converter in the thing. I've not tried all the tracks and I haven't really used the large diaphragm condenser, just the small diaphragm pencil mic. Well, not in regard to levels.

The guitar/bass insert in the front is awesome. As I went through several cheaper cables (leads) on the BR900 because I didn't buy any with the 90 Degree connector. It tends to loosen the connector and get static in the line. I also just bought two brand new cables  that cost a bit more as well as two new more expensive mic cables. I doubt I hear much difference, but I can rest a bit better knowing I've got a better connection and hopefully a longer life in the cables.

The preset list circles around. So I can't just scroll fairly fast (not too fast to protect the wheel) to the end and then back up a few to a preset. It just scrolls from preset to user back to preset. Not a biggie, I guess, but different. I like the User list being easily available. I'm betting that I end up saving more of my presents instead of saving them in a notebook that I can never find.

Well that's most of it for now. I'll try to do another update after I've done more multi track recording and used some more features.

[AndyR]

TC, what do you mean by WAV conversion? Do you mean the "getting the tracks out of the thing for use elsewhere"?

Off the top-of-my-head:

Yep, you do need to specify the tracks, AND the start and stop time. I mix and master everything on the BR, so I'm only ever exporting one final stereo track - it doesn't really bother me so much. But if I was mixing elsewhere, then yeah, it'll take ages. Someone wrote a program to speed it up, can't find the link, though (can't remember how much they charge either, or whether it's bug free).

I don't use the USB and haven't done ever since I first tried it - in fact, I can't even remember how to do it!!. It's USB 1.0 - it takes FOREVER (we're talking several hours if you're backing up a hefty project).

Instead, I use read-write CDs as transport disks (and read-only for backing up a project when the song is finally finished). It's much faster. For the "transport disk" job, I'm only on my second RW CD since I started doing it this way a couple of years ago. I just use the same one over and over again.

Btw, related to this - song projects can get awfully big with a lot of takes and overdubs. Use Song optimise regularly (and save immediately after, before doing anything else that could tempt you into an undo - I understand there's a little glitch around there somewhere, that could corrupt the song, not hit it myself, though). Optimising speeds up things like saving and locating markers, and it seriously reduces the number of disks needed for a song backup.

....

Not sure what you mean about the mic not hitting the peak (and you don't say what the source is - vocal, acoustic guitar, whatever). Especially when you say you "haven't tried all the tracks"?

You've got several levels of gain open to you. The options depend on what input type you've selected:

Vocal
If you're recording having selected "Vocal", you're using Input 2 (you can't use any of the others for input mode "Vocal"), and you can arm any of the tracks for recording. Typically, for a vocal, I have the Vocal/Input2/Mic2 knob (what you call trim?) on about 50% (I'm setting it as high as it will go before I light the peak light on loud passages - you will get clipping when that lights), and I usually have the big Input Level knob set to Max (that controls the amount going to "tape" - I always think it should be called "Record Level", but really it's like the Fader at the bottom of the desk channel after the "Gain" of that input/trim knob at the top, and any Inserts/EQ that you're using between the two).

With my mics (a large condenser and a couple of 57s), I always have to watch for that little peak light on the input gain. Not sure I've ever had the trim knob up to Max.

There is actually another gain stage or two available between the trim and the Input Level knob - when you select Vocal as the input, it automatically switches on an effects patch from the Vocal banks (Vocal Comp 1 by default). It all depends what you switch on/off in this patch. Note that by default, Location is set to "normal", which is NOT "record dry" on a BR1600. Treat this effect patch (and all of them on any input type) as the "insert" effects and EQ strip on the desk channel before sending the signal to the multi-track recorder using the Input Level "fader". On the vocal patches, for more level, you have a Compressor, you can get the signal very hot using this (even with the compression disabled by setting Ratio to 1:1 or Threshold to 100), you also have four-band EQ with an output level if you want (after the compressor).

Guitar/Bass
Similar, but you're using Input 1 only, and the effects patch is from the guitars banks.

DO NOT select this type and put a Mic in Input1 - you will not get enough signal. With Guitar/Bass engaged, this is a Hi-Z instrument input.

"Simul" Guitar/bass and Vocal selected
I've only ever tried this once, and I can't remember what gets recorded. It looks like you can arm different tracks. It's expecting to use two tracks (a stereo pair - I assume it's separating them left/right), but you can force it to use one - not sure what happens then!
Anyway, in this mode, it offers you an effects patch that has an appropriate algorithm on each input. Input 1 is the Hi-Z for a guitar/bass, Input 2 is a mic-level input. Plug them in round the wrong way and you won't like it!

...

The final two input types give you another level of gain - "Level Calibration" which amount to a Level control on every input (after the input trim, but before the Input Level knob which now becomes a "master fader" for all of the inputs). There's a BIG difference between the two though:

Stereo Tracks
Personally I use Inputs 7 and 8 with this - any stereo signal (amp simulator, keyboards, etc) comes in here via a mixing desk for me. But it does appear that Inputs 1 - 6 are live as well, so I have to make sure their input levels are down, especially if I have anything attached to them (using Level Calibration).

The thing about "Stereo Tracks" is you can arm any track for recording this input type. Either a stereo pair, or you can force it to go mono by selecting one of the armed pair.

I think, but I'm not sure, that you can use this mode to record a stereo mix of all 8 inputs at once, but you have no EQ/compression options on individual inputs, just on the entire mix. But I'm a one-man band, so I don't really see me ever using it like this. And even if I wasn't, I reckon I'd use the the next option and then do a stereo mix afterwards with a bounce.

Multi-Tracks
The thing about this one, Input 1 goes to Track 1, Input 2 to Track 2, and so on. It's for recording multiple sources live. Eg a mic'd drumkit, or a whole band.

You have the Level Calibration across the 8 inputs. And the effects patch is a special 8 channel one - each channel has it's own hi-pass filter, compressor, and EQ.

I use this mode when recording a live acoustic/vocal performance. I find it a bit hairy and frustrating, though, being both the artist and the engineer... I only do this now if I notice that the vocal and guitar performances really benefit from me playing them both simultaneously - eg it's a song I got used to doing live and the tempo needs to breathe a lot at the whim of the vocals... Even then I'm more likely to rehearse it extensively so that I can track the vocals and guitar separately with a reasonable performance.

WARNING: With Multi-tracks, un-arm any tracks you're not recording to!! Eg, if you have mics in 1 and 2 to record an acoustic in stereo, and in 3 to record a vocal, these will go to tracks 1, 2, and 3, no choice... make sure there's nothing on those tracks already (move the content to another track, or move the mics to different inputs). ALSO, make sure that the red lights are off on tracks 4-8, where the rest of the song is!! Otherwise you'll record silence over them! (You'll only do this once... and Undo is your friend).

.....

Finally, I'm wondering whether you've hit something I did early on. It took me hours to figure out, and I thought the machine had a problem...

The dedicated play-back compressors on each track have an output level. Once, after doing "band stuff" and bouncing a rough mix to one of the stereo tracks, I had awful trouble getting decent levels on the 8 backing vocals I was sticking on tracks 1-8. It was the same part, using the same input settings each time, but the recorded signal on play back seemed to vary wildly... I even thought one of the channels/tracks was buggered... Early on I realised the input Channel was ok, it was the same one everytime, so perhaps the circuitry to get it to the track was buggered? So I swapped the contents of a loud and a quiet track. The loud take became quiet on the "naff" track and vice versa. So then I thought the play-back channel for that track was buggered somehow...

Eventually, I worked out that I'd been setting the play-back compressors thresholds to 0db to disable them but, of course, their output level settings are still obeyed if the compressors are on. The apparently louder tracks had several db each applied to them from the earlier rough mix bounce. When I zeroed them all, all the tracks were consistent. Btw I take advantage of the compressors output levels if a recorded track is not as loud as it could be in relation to others (rather than normalising every track after recording it).


Sorry, that was so long... hopefully there's something useful in there!!

I love my BR1600, but I am beginning to feel some limitations. Most of them were originally things that helped my creativity. These were things that happened to me when I moved from a DAW to the MBR - suddenly losing ways (or easy ways) of editing audio, or of automating mixes, SERIOUSLY improved the recordings I was making. It forced me to go back to doing things "the old way", accepting and working with the limitations, and the sounds I made were so much better.

On a DAW, I was using every trick I could think of or find, without understanding why it perhaps wasn't necessary!! Now I'm more experienced, I could probably handle it, so I'm beginning to find the limitations restrictive in a less-than-good way (and I'm beginning to worry about what's going to happen when it dies... and it will).

I have to admit, I would NOT choose a BR1600 for tracking and then mixing on a DAW. The "getting the tracks onto the PC" part would kill me. It's also a bit of a pain for anyone who wants to collaborate with others because of this...

I would recommend a BR1600 to a home-recordist who does it all themselves, who thinks old-skool (mixing desks and tape machines, sound not MIDI) and who wants to do the whole thing on one box and not use the PC. It absolutely rocks for that application.

[T.C. Elliott]

Thanks for your response. I truly appreciate it.

As for the trim knob, I was referring to the "input sens" knob at the top near the back of the machine. With this mic I turned it nearly all the way up before the light started coming on even on the loudest syllables. I was using it as a vocal mic on input 2 as you mentioned. I've not tried it on a solo track in multi recording.

Yeah, the WAV converting I'm doing is to mix in a DAW. I actually don't think it's that slow. This machine is upgraded to Version 2.0 which allows for converting ALL of the recorded tracks of a song at one time. It does take a little bit of time, but so far Ive not noticed it being much worse than the BR900 with the Wav Converter software. (Btw, our very own 64guitars wrote the BR WAV converter software. I assumed that it won't work with the 1600 but haven't actually checked.)

I try not to record with too much compression. Although I've found I like the BR900 compression more than some of the plugins. And I don't like the idea of using compression to even out levels during recording. But I know I've done it before, too so....

The main reason I looked at the BR1600 was for the 8 track simultaneous recording, but I'll be honest and say that I'm not sure I"ll use it much. I was just thinking this morning of trying a three mic set up for recording guitar/vox simultaneously. Line in on the gtr, plus a condenser on the guitar and another on the vox. I'll play a little bit and see how it works. Although, come to think of it, doing live recording with four room mics would be pretty sweet, too. Although this is fairly bulky and maybe not suited to live music recording as much as the 900 or even a hand held recorder, I bet I can get better results with it.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and will be working through some more recording scenarios in the near future. I have a lot to learn yet, even though I'm pretty familiar with the 900. This 1600 is definitely a different beast.

[T.C. Elliott]

A question. How do you turn off stereo tracks when multi-tracking? I recorded a performance to tracks one, two and three, then after that I recorded to track four. When I wav converted it made 1 and 2 a stereo track and 3 and 4 a stereo track. I actually have a work around in Reaper, but can't see anything in the manual about stopping that in the conversion or recording process.

[64Guitars]

(Btw, our very own 64guitars wrote the BR WAV converter software. I assumed that it won't work with the 1600 but haven't actually checked.)

I don't know where you got that idea but the BR Wave Converter software was created by Roland. I had nothing to do with it. And it doesn't work with the BR-1600.

There is a commercial program ($40) by Gene Cookmeyer that's designed for the BR-1600.

http://www.topsoundproductions.com/products/wav-maker-1600/index.htm

[SteveB]

I have the Wav-Maker program and it works with the BR1200. I ordered it from the U.S. and it took about a week to arrive. Price was about £39 incl postage etc. The individual cd is inscribed with my name, so I presume the firm make-as-needed, and I can't sell, re-let etc the disc. But, it works flawlessly. I can transfer the whole caboodle 'full hard drive' if I wish, or just the .wav tracks of an individual song into the compute for DAW editing.

On the mic thing. I use dynamic and condensers, and use a pre-amp on both. You can hear a fly fart in the next street via the mics if you wish. 

[T.C. Elliott]

Thanks, SteveB. I just (re)found that wav maker program. It's going for about 50 U.S. although I see an expired ebay listing of 39.99. It might be worth the money, but I'm awaiting an email response from Roland on doing a *.* conversion of all mono tracks. It'll be interesting to hear their response on Monday.