Is it me ...

[Vaisvil]

Dear All,

What Haylie said about having to be mindful of such things IS a shame.

If you had someone gaming the system then that IS a problem. But there are no charts. Saying thanks or responding or discussing comments are a nice way to build a friendship I think.

And Haylie - love you back - you are one of the nicest people on SC.

I don't feel much like a songcrafter tonight. Actually, I don't have nearly as much invested in this site as most of the people who have posted in this thread. But when I came, at first I thought the tent was big enough for everyone.

But I'm not here to abuse you folks. I sort of run experiments if you will (in a good way) of posting off the wall stuff to a place I consider pretty mainstream. And occasionally a cover in normal tuning. As I said, I don't expect much because I don't put much into here.

I like this community and I hate to see it get bent out of shape over what I think is a non-issue.

Can't we just not sweat the little stuff?

Sincerely,

Chris

[phantasm777]

quite honestly IF the subject stayed on what Bruno talked about. we wouldn't have had all this.
but when you feel a need to point out some only post comments to others after posting their own song, so? did it ever occur to some that IF they have the time, they will listen and maybe comment and that time might just be when they are posting their song??? do we need to come in at a separate time?
isn't it better that, even if they do some listening, commenting after they post their work, that's better than nothing right? and why do these people need to feel being pressured to post, yes, they are being pressured by being indirectly called out, especially when Bruno's topic had nothing to do with this!

everyone knows any forum slows in activity during the summer months. does it really matter when someone is going to listen and comment just as long as they do? it is not a very open, free feeling being belittled as to when to comment or not, even if it is BS comments said just to take the pressure off, just to comment to shut people up, is that what you'd rather have?!

the complaint works both ways, but I won't even bother even indirectly, mentioning who never comments on anything I do, isn't that the same thing? I came to accept this for the same reason I had hoped people would respect my pickiness in musical tastes.

if you are a true music lover of all styles, bravo, congrats to you, that shouldn't stop you from commenting all over the place. if you are not, such a person with such a broad array of genres and styles, likes, then you can only do what you can and be true to yourself. and not have to fear, geee, I guess I better do some comments before I post another song or it will work against me. why should anything work against anyone here if they are not causing outrageous problems?

as some have already said in this topic and others before this, it all still evens itself out. if you chose to be vengeful and not comment on someone who doesn't comment on you, go for it, unsportsmanlike or not, it is your right! if you chose just to focus on listening and commenting no matter who it is or isn't, classy! go for it too! but as for me, I don't care, what choice do I or anyone have about that anyways?

to make someone feel ashamed or belittled for saying thanks! wow, weren't we all brought up that way NOT to just let it be implied? now, others and I are very hesitant to even say thanks or be accused of trying to boost our comments total as if it was all about the one who has the most comments, and don't get me started on that topic!

to make people here feel uncomfortable, merely for being who they are, and I for one from day one, expressed how picky I was, so it is no secret, but some just want to continue to put such people out as scape goats or something. so now, some of us come in here, are afraid to post a song lest some think we are doing individual platforming, some are afraid to say thanks for fear of boosting our comments, some are afraid to comment while posting their new song to be singled out, if even indirectly, as someone who only comments when they post their own stuff, because of one or a few people's interpretation of what was done. does it really matter when or how someone comments as long as they do, isn't that the point being made ? so what the hell? damned if you do, damned if you don't!

let people post when they want as often or not, as they want. if their return comments diminish cause of lack of comments, that's on them isn't it?? if they are ok with it, what's the big deal?
I personally would like to post my songs anywhere I can and I do not care what the replies are, though, nice comments are nice, of course! shit, even against huge odds my only wish is the right person hears it and I move on to bigger better things!
sure the odds are against me, BIG time, but if you do not have any dreams for your goals them why bother? yes, i do do this for myself, screw what others think if they don't like it, but there is always that underlying hope of something more, if it never comes to be, so!! onward I go regardless!!

not just members come to this site you know, many come here who never even join nor comment and come to listen or maybe even steal ideas, I don't know! maybe some are looking for talent, who knows, but a lot of non members visit this site.

but to indirectly single out people, making them feel very uncomfortable to post or not to post, to comment or else.... be singled out indirectly, you cannot say thanks even if infrequently. or as a grouped thanks. as if these are HUGE problems on this site? really?!

[Hook]

1st I should say, Frank I certainly was not implying that your music all sounds the same, I was actually thinking of Trey Anastasio & the band Phish when I made that comment, whom I think are all incredible musicians however there music (to me) seems to grounded in one direction. I've enjoyed most of your tracks Frank and defiantly see the improvements you have made over the year. I've been using the latest song jukeboxes lately to listen & since yours don't show up on those I probably miss some of your posts.
I do think 64's comments on posting habits are completely relevant to the topic and i applaud all he does for us(me). I think that the encouragement from admin to listen and post is and should be welcome, once again, that is what this site is and was created to be, a support community.

I'm a songcrafter....

and I am a songcrafter 

I am a Songcrafter

Yes my friends you most certainly are...damn good ones at that!

The only other thing I'm thinking is that it is a shame discussions like this would make someone feel uncomfortable to post. Hey as far as I know there are no rules as to what you can bump or comment & as much as I like the positive nature of our little place here, I, like Haylie, certainly don't mind a little constructive criticism. I have never noticed any "revenge posting" and personally have never felt any pressure to post anyway in particular. I do see the encouragement to be an active member and that's what we (as a site) want from all members. I want to hear your tunes and would love to know what you think of mine. 
Rock On Songcrafters!

[phantasm777]

hook, I didn't really think you meant my work, but, there is a fine line between all ones work sounding the same, and it merely just being their - style!
but I do agree with you about phish! also even the music, genre's, styles I do not like, I do respect the talent and artistry, it just doesn't grab me!

support should not be measured by how many posts posted, I see a lot of BS posts here that I will not elaborate on!

there might not be any rules about bumping, but I did see a complaint made about it, by merely saying thank you, you bump, that's the point that was made! I have never bumped anything of mine once it is off the first page!

if some wants to imply that a thanks is there and is not needed as a reply, that's on them, they can do it however they see fit, but making people feel wrong about it is a joke and disrespectful, especially compared to some BS posts I have seen here that often have nothing to do with the site!

I never said anything about revenge posting, I said, in revenge for not commenting enough or enough per an individual, they might think, well screw you, then I am never commenting on anything you do! it happens, I expect that. and I even  know who never comments on me yet make many comments to others and that's their right, yet I do not have that same right?

I have said so, since day one, when I arrived here, that i am very picky and do not have as broad of likes of music styles as most everyone else! so it is no new news or a surprise!

you do not have to feel pressured about how many comments you make, you make a ton, but you are not in the unnamed ones who are being referred to!

when you ask people to participate more and comment more, you cannot assume everyone likes a broad arrangement of music as yourself! you cannot put that on everyone and have to respect they have their own tastes and likes on what grabs them! musical tastes are very very personal, which is why I never say anyone or any style sucks cause it implies their fans do to!

nor can one assume they know enough on the other topics to participate enough in! for example I never owned or used a boss and such! nor am I a pro at anything but I do voice in there and feel far more comfortable even in my lack of experience, to comment there, than be prodded to comment more about songs that just don't grab me! there is no pressure about commenting on the non songs topics!

I've listened to a lot, but I would never get credit for that cause it seems you also have to comment to, and i'm not going to put up some BS like - good job, good mix, just to satisfy some expected comment quota, and that I need to comment more!

one cannot force their broad range of tastes on others and expect them to be the same way. I was very FRANK about my tastes in the topic where you introduce yourself on this site. a few even appreciated my candor during those initial comments. i was brutally honest and i mentioned i would not expect many comments, cause i could not promise i would like everything i heard and thus could not comment on styles, genre's I am not into! I made no excuse, I was upfront about my pickiness as far as musical tastes and likings from the very beginning!

overall I think it is much ado about nothing as everything evens out in the end. IF you decide, well, this one never comments on my stuff, so I won't comment on his, that's fine! it happens, if you decide, well, I am gonna comment anyways, even if this person never comments on mine, well groovy!

honestly speaking, there is NO one here I will not listen to their music cause of who they are, I do not have any personal grudges against anyone. but if they basically stay in the same styles that do not grab me, I am sorry, if it were the radio I would change the channel or turn it off.

I am very convicted in my tastes, and even that being the case in some of my originals, I notice genre's I do not like, like the blues, subtley in some of my songs from time to time. it happens, and also shows I am not as pigeon holed as some might think. what goes in (styles I like) is never the same as what comes out (my finished song).

the funny thing is there is a lot of styles I like, but really do not even want to play! in some cases I like to do this to have some music to get away from and listen to, as oppose to doing!

but I digress!
anyways, if these few things are the biggest problems of this site, I say we're all doing damn well here if those are the biggest complaints coming to the forefront.

have you see how many sites people are just flat out rude and disrespectful to it's own members? and the cliques here aren't as bad as some other forums on whatever topics.

I know for a fact some people comment even less than I do! and why should I care or even subtley address it to them even indirectly?

every site like this or other subjects are going to have those who post a ridiculous amount, and some who post a lot,
and some who post about half as much as those who post a lot,
and some who post a bit, and some who post barely, or not at all.

they're all here too and some people's huge number of comments, more than make up for those who comment far less! no one says anything to them to lessen how often they comment, nor should pressure be made on anyone's lesser comment amounts.

people participate at their own paces according to their own tastes and knowledge! we are not all robots with the same tastes and capability to even comment knowledgeably, equally to all posts.

if I hate the blues or rap, how can I give a honest positive comment or constructive cause if I don't like it, how could I be a good critic of the genre? you do not hire a country music hater to be a country music critic! at least I wouldn't think so?

[bruno]

Holy Moly, I don't want to be the bad guy! This was an innocent question, and I wasn't criticising anyone. I am a creature of habit, so usually try to listen to 3 or so pieces a day. If I listen, I will comment 99% of the time, unless I really don't have anything to say. Given that I comment at a regular pace, and normally not on the top 5 posters board - I was a little dismayed at finding myself at number 3. Also when looking for tracks to listen to, found that I'd commented on most on page 1. So something is different. Being an engineer, I wanted to understand - simple as that.

I feel that I know many of you on this site, through your music and your writings - and would like to share a beer  and have a laugh over a table of food. I would like to say that there is no criticism of anyone personally, actual or implies - just a simple question.

I am a songcrafter.

Peace and love

B

[phantasm777]

already mentioned that Bruno, that the topic went far off how you started it, and that's where this discussion came about.
it is only june 10th, you cannot judge a month on only 10 days, and add to that is is summer for many, then add life gets in the way, whether you want it to or not.

much of what is addressed here, was not about anything you said but more about replies thereafter!

[Greeny]

I'm not getting most of this. There is absolutely no criticism of this community that I will ever accept as being valid. It's a free site, and it's been run wonderfully by 64guitars who continues to gives up huge amounts of his own time for FREE to maintain all the things we see and interact with - plus reply in technical, helpful detail to all manner of queries and questions. Even an indirect criticism of this place comes across (to me) as extremely ungrateful to 64 and the moderators for the considerable time and effort they put in here.

People should only be here if they want to be here. It's as simple as that. If it's making anyone paranoid, unhappy, or unfulfilled, then it's not the right community for them.

Having been around Songcrafters for a long time, it's rare that discussions like this come up. I think that's because it's a friendly, supportive community that encourages people to 'do the right thing' through example. We shouldn't need to reaffirm rules or call people out on their posting/commenting ratio, because it should be obvious to all of us whether we're conducting ourselves in the spirit of this community and treating others in the way that we would want to be treated. 

It's supposed to be enjoyable , folks. If it's a chore, or you spend more time wondering who has / hasn't commented on your song, then it's probably time to take a short or permanent break.

I have got so many positive things from Songcrafters. Friendships, collaborations, and inspiration. My songwriting and playing have both improved enormously, and I've learned production tips and even taken on new instruments because of the example of all the talented people on here. 

I comment when I can, and am conscious not to post too many of my own songs. That means almost three quarters of my songs never get heard, but I don't mind that. I don't need my ego constantly massaged, thanks. I just love music in each and every form, and enjoy listing to and trying new things. I also never thank people on my posts because I don't want to 'bump' my songs up the page. However, I don't care or get upset if other people do it to their own songs. I do reply to specific questions that are asked re: instruments or production etc though. My only 'rules' are that I try to be supportive and considerate to those around me. 

Love to you all.

[kenny mac]

Yeh,   What he said  .  Spread the love.

[phantasm777]

still no one says how you supportively comment on music that doesn't touch you or is in a style you just cannot stand! it gets brushed aside like that doesn't exist. also it is easy for the people who have the most posts to say what they say, try letting the lesser posters give their opinion about it!?

no one said anything about "If it's a chore, or you spend more time wondering who has / hasn't commented on your song, then it's probably time to take a short or permanent break. "

the fact that directing comments to people, if someone thinks they do not post enough is the same thing, they're worrying about who is commenting and how much! my point was I do not worry because many people, some I can even name, NEVER post on my stuff, so what's the big deal? yet that point also seems to escape people!

ain't no wondering here, ain't no chore, it was soley brought up cause after a while you notice and it becomes quite obvious who never posts on my stuff, just as one could figure out who does not post enough overall, BUT I do not care! I figure they're like me, they do not like my style, genre's I do, so they cannot comment honestly or positively! that's fine, it goes back to it all evening out in the end. if you do not comment a lot, you prob won't get commented back much, if I am OK with that, why isn't anyone else?

and this is NOT the first time this all was brought up since I have been here. it is about the second or 3rd and even ian mentioned that.

so is it being said that haylie, chris, ian who mentioned about being afraid to say thanks anymore, and or about perhaps not listening to the complaint of not posting enough comments, should leave? as per -

"People should only be here if they want to be here. It's as simple as that. If it's making anyone paranoid, unhappy, or unfulfilled, then it's not the right community for them."

that doesn't seem very friendly now does it, the inference?! is that the best solution a friendly forum can come up with?

i really do not see how those who post less, are hurting the site any more than those complaining about it and making the lesser posters uncomfortable, and especially any more than those who post a lot and some aren't even valid comments.

haylie posts a lot, but she has to feel uncomfortable in thanking people?? because some will think it's just a bump? well then, make it a rule, to never say thanks, put up a way to click a thumbs up for the song poster, without it being counted as a bump! problem solved.

just cause some love music in each and every form doesn't mean we all do! do not we deserve still, the same respect for liking what we like? music is very personal and subjective to the ear and heart of the beholder!
it took all my life to find out what I like and do not like and I am content in it! more power to you if you like all type of music. should those who do not, be looked down upon?

and again, if some are not posting enough and thanking people too many times, and nothing else "bad" is going on, my god that seems pretty good! look around at other forums and compare, this one will even disagree, with civil words, even when some feeled singled out! even in disagreements, this site shows more respect to each other more than hundreds of other forum type sites combined! seems like this is just rocking the boat.

I've got a song up that is going to disappear soon with NO comments, so damn what!!!!!!!
my point in saying that is, shouldn't I join the  - you people are not commenting enough - bandwagon because it happens to me too! hell no!
if you do not comment you either choose not to for whatever reason including you just never got around to hearing it, or you plain are NOT into it! what we are NOT allowed to NOT be into what our own personal taste is in music?

that's life and I expect little to no comments and never say anything about it till this subject comes up!!!! i am ready to PAY for being a picky person! I am not going to call anyone out indirectly cause, wahhh .... they won't comment on my song! come on!!!!!!!

to get someone to listen, that's the hard part, cause often even people who do like what they hear do not even comment, for whatever reason. so?
I am glad they would bother to even listen. I do not want to be the only one listening to what I make, how they feel about it, good or bad is their opinion, and I respect that, whether they comment or not!

explaining my stance is not in itself a complaint, especially since I made it clear from day one, so why then, didn't someone say, this is not the place for you, then?  I got a few comments then, appreciating my honesty and bluntness and no negative comments about where I was coming from.
when I comment it is going to be in honesty and truth, I will not lie, or give a half assed compliment, just to boost my comment count! i cannot possibly comment on every single post, plus I've a feeling if I did and ran up my post count, then that would be a complaint about people running up their posts counts! go figure!

[64Guitars]

I'm not getting most of this. There is absolutely no criticism of this community that I will ever accept as being valid. It's a free site, and it's been run wonderfully by 64guitars who continues to gives up huge amounts of his own time for FREE to maintain all the things we see and interact with - plus reply in technical, helpful detail to all manner of queries and questions. Even an indirect criticism of this place comes across (to me) as extremely ungrateful to 64 and the moderators for the considerable time and effort they put in here.

People should only be here if they want to be here. It's as simple as that. If it's making anyone paranoid, unhappy, or unfulfilled, then it's not the right community for them.

Having been around Songcrafters for a long time, it's rare that discussions like this come up. I think that's because it's a friendly, supportive community that encourages people to 'do the right thing' through example. We shouldn't need to reaffirm rules or call people out on their posting/commenting ratio, because it should be obvious to all of us whether we're conducting ourselves in the spirit of this community and treating others in the way that we would want to be treated. 

It's supposed to be enjoyable , folks. If it's a chore, or you spend more time wondering who has / hasn't commented on your song, then it's probably time to take a short or permanent break.

I have got so many positive things from Songcrafters. Friendships, collaborations, and inspiration. My songwriting and playing have both improved enormously, and I've learned production tips and even taken on new instruments because of the example of all the talented people on here. 

I comment when I can, and am conscious not to post too many of my own songs. That means almost three quarters of my songs never get heard, but I don't mind that. I don't need my ego constantly massaged, thanks. I just love music in each and every form, and enjoy listing to and trying new things. I also never thank people on my posts because I don't want to 'bump' my songs up the page. However, I don't care or get upset if other people do it to their own songs. I do reply to specific questions that are asked re: instruments or production etc though. My only 'rules' are that I try to be supportive and considerate to those around me. 

Love to you all.

An excellent post, Greeny. Thank you for that. I especially like your point about doing the right thing by example. That has always been the way at Songcrafters since the site was created in 2007. Which leaves me a bit puzzled about these "rules" that a few people are complaining about. What rules? Could someone please post a link to this list of rules? In 5½ years at Songcrafters, I've not seen any such list. I certainly haven't created one. The only rules I recall seeing posted were these:

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=2.0

"No SPAM
No Offences
Be Humble
Be Kind"

Songcrafters has always been a friendly, helpful, and supportive community. There were never any rules that made this community what it is. It's really a reflection of the character, kindness, and values of the original members that defined the nature and values of the site and the etiquette of posting. When other members joined, they mostly followed the example of the earlier members. So no list of rules has ever been needed.

Occasionally, new members join and don't notice or pay enough attention to the example set by the veteran members. When that happens, we try to help these new members adjust by pointing out where they've strayed from the accepted norm in a way that could be negative or disruptive to the site. Most people accept this guidance in the helpful, friendly way it was intended. But, inevitably, a small percentage choose to see our guidance as enforcement of some imagined rules. That's unfortunate.

The admin team firmly believes in the values established by the early members of Songcrafters (or microrecorders.org, as it was known then) and we're committed to maintaining those values. Though we have no strict rules, we'll not allow anyone to jeopardize the site's values or change the site in ways that we feel are negative. So, occasionally, we'll post comments about trends we see that could have a negative impact on the site. A few people will balk at these comments and resent the admin team for them. So be it. We know that the majority of our members respect what we do and want us to protect the values of the site that they've come to know and love.