How to approach BeatlesFest 2?

[kenny mac]

I REST MY CASE MILUD

[64Guitars]

john cale, nick cave, johnny cash among others are acts i like to see covering songs because the put their own spin on it and in johnny cash's case the song generally becomes his.

would you rather have

a cover like this

(John Cale covering Heartbreak Hotel)

Actually, I'd like John Cale's song a lot better if he'd written his own words and given it a different title. By making it a cover of Heartbreak Hotel, the song is ruined for me. A cover should sound like the original song, in my opinion. If you're going to do something completely different, then write your own words and don't call it a cover.

I don't generally like listening to covers at all unless they're by one of my heroes (eg. Jimi Hendrix's cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band or Jeff Beck's cover of A Day in the Life). But I love doing my own covers. It's a great challenge to work out how to play all the parts of a song and so rewarding when I feel that I've come pretty close. Plus, it's very educational and improves my own playing. Most pro guitarists will readily admit that they learned their chops by copying solos off records.

I enjoy most of the covers posted here (though, admittedly, not all). But the ones that impress me the most are the ones that come closest to the original (Geir's, Sundbo's, and hooper's Beatles covers are great examples). Yes, they've put their own spin on them to some degree, but they've obviously worked out all the important parts of the song and played them pretty accurately. I find that quite impressive because I know how hard it is to do. I also find those covers far more enjoyable to listen to than the really "creative" ones. But that's just me. I'm sure I'm in the minority, as usual.

I guess the lesson to be learned from this is that there are two sides to the "exact copy vs. creative copy" issue and we shouldn't stick to one side all of the time. No matter which side you prefer, try the other side once in a while. It has its benefits too.

[Oldrottenhead]

naw
best this is cover ever


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ChE4c_g4B0

[Hilary]

I understand what you are saying 64G and I read somewhere that the best way to learn how to write/produce songs is to replicate some of the greats and I can appreciate that but you would be surprised just how difficult it is to take a standard and rework it as it's so firmly implanted in the brain. You are saying try both from time to time - that would be assuming you have done so too and have therefore tried reinventing a classic. I have got a couple of covers that come close, at least vocally, but I haven't posted them on here yet.

I say each to their own and do what feels right - variety, as they say, is the spice of life.

btw - Cuthbert's done some awesome Beatles covers too.

[Gritter]

I like to find analogies in sports.

Take football (soccer). Just because I'm not as good as Messi, Ronaldo or Rooney doesn't mean I'm not going to kick the ball around the field with my buddies.

*actually, this is a football analogy for hockey and I'm not (quite) as good as Crosby, Datsyuk or the Sedins.

bottom line: Play your best game.

[64Guitars]

bottom line: Play your best game.

Absolutely! But also try to improve your game. In music, we do that by copying from other musicians who have better skills than we currently possess. That could mean copying what your guitar teacher shows you. It could mean copying what some other musician has transcribed to tablature or sheet music. Or it could mean copying from recordings. Without copying other musicians, we're just drawing from the same old techniques (chords, scales, licks, etc.) that we're comfortable with. To expand and improve our range of techniques, we need to copy from other musicians in one way or another. Some people like learning from sheet music or tablature. Others like to take music lessons. But in rock and blues music especially, many of the best learned by copying from records. It's a great way to improve your game, especially today with so many tools and resources available to make the task easier.

[AndyR]

I very much hear what 64's saying (I've not been on here over the weekend because I've just spent the whole time figuring out how to replicate the backing for a song with someone else - not The Beatles in this case, though).

Like Haylie, I'd read somewhere that doing this does wonders for your arranging/production skills... it's the first time I've really bothered doing it and, folks, it is TRUE!!

I've already found in the past that the same applies with copying paintings, so I always suspected it would be the same with recordings (I've never been one to learn parts off a record, the song yes, but not the parts).

When you try to copy a piece of creativity as accurately as you can, you get right inside the original creator's head. You face all the same little challenges and niggles that they did in the first place. I find it a quite liberating and sometimes mind-blowing experience (try copying Degas, for example, and realising suddenly "OH! That's what he was thinking, that's what he could see..." as you're trying to get something happening - it's amazing "getting in touch" with other creative people like this).

It teaches you stuff and affirms what you thought were your stumbling thought-processes - it turns out that the folk you look up to were doing exactly the same thing as you.

BUT!!! For me, although I get a kick out of hearing when someone has done a very good "copy", and I do get a kick out of creating one, I don't get a kick out of the idea of posting one myself for some reason. No idea why, really.

I do actually have a reason for the "copying" I'm involved in at the moment. Originally I was going to do a stripped-down version of this song and sing it myself (the original is a male-only lead-vocal song). But during collaboration discussions with someone I pointed them at this song as something I liked and was learning, and we both realised you could do something rather interesting with boy/girl vocals instead.

In my mind, taking that approach already made it a huge departure from and reinterpretation of the original (which is one of my favourite songs ever). So I then felt that "copying" (or attempting to copy ) the rest of it was artistically a good idea to help keep the whole thing grounded. No idea whether this will actually work out in the long run, but we're having a laugh digging the parts out of it - and I'm learning that I didn't know as much as I thought I did .

When we start recording the actual takes and putting it together, we'll figure out how much of the original stuff we actually want to use and how far to push off in another direction. But the rough stuff we're listening to is starting to sound very much like the band we're copying - and like 64 says, there's a real feeling of achievement that comes with that.


At heart, however, I am a great "do your own thing" advocate. Sod what instrumentation they put on the record - that was just their ideas. Nice, we all bought it and loved it, but that's not where the song is at. And, unless the original songwriter(s) are completely  up themselves and believe that theirs was THE interpretation and all others are blasphemy, they will always be interested in hearing how other people hear and feel the song...

And remember that quite a lot of artists feel stuck because they feel that they have to recreate a recording that they made X years ago, probably in a rushed "oh that'll do" fashion. They have to play the guitar lick or whatever as it was in the sessions, even though they know there's a better way now, because otherwise they might have the punters going "you suck" too!!

So my advice is still "do your own thing as best you can - we'll all listen to it for what it is, not what it was".

But if you've never tried to recreate a favourite recording - DO give it a go, you'll learn so much (not least being the discovery that you can already do stuff you didn't think you could!! )

[Geir]

I do find real pleasure in trying to replicate the originals of my heroes. There is so much to be learned from listening to and trying to figure out what they did to get it to sound like that. Both the ZappaFest and BeatlesFest was a great experience for me. It was the first time I had to dig deep and try to figure out ALL parts of the songs, not just the vocals and maybe one guitarpart. And not only did I get better in figuring out what to play/sing (I listened for hours on some of those songs just to get the harmony vocals) I also learned a lot about mixing/arrangements. So I can really recommend to give it a shot! That said, I've done my fair share of re-interpretations as well and that is really fun too, and some times the results can bring out new aspects of a song.

One thing I've discovered from trying to figure out the Beatles harmonies is that on some of their songs I didn't even have the main vocals right. Some of their harmonies are so tight and so melodic on their own, that Ive actually sang a mix of the main and harmony !!! That has been the case of the one I'm working on now. I think I've got the main vocals right now tho

bottom line: Play your best game.

I think that sums it up nicely !

[64Guitars]

So my advice is still "do your own thing as best you can - we'll all listen to it for what it is, not what it was".

But if you've never tried to recreate a favourite recording - DO give it a go, you'll learn so much (not least being the discovery that you can already do stuff you didn't think you could!! )

Exactly. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should do every cover as an exact copy. I'm just saying that people who have never done an exact cover should give it a try once in a while. It's really very rewarding and educational. It helps you to improve and expand your skills. And you can use those new skills the next time you do your own thing.

Both the ZappaFest and BeatlesFest was a great experience for me. It was the first time I had to dig deep and try to figure out ALL parts of the songs, not just the vocals and maybe one guitarpart.

Yes, that's something I've found too. Before I got my BR-864, I was only concerned with learning the guitar parts. I used to play in bands with a bass player, drummer, and singer so I didn't care about those parts. But when I got my BR-864 and started making my own multitrack recordings, I had to figure out the bass, drums, and keys too and I really enjoy it. I'm finding the bass especially enjoyable, particularly on Beatles songs. McCartney is an excellent bass player and it's so much fun copying his stuff.

Although the drum programming can be a bit of a chore, it's also very educational. For example, the verse of a song might have the same drum pattern for the first, second, and fourth measures but the drummer changes it slightly in the third measure, perhaps adding a crash cymbal or an extra snare hit. I could play all four measures the same and it would probably sound fine. But I like the challenge of figuring out how to get that third measure right. It forces me to learn new things about Hydrogen. Then the next song I do will be slightly less of a chore because I know that much more about Hydrogen. So it's worth the effort to try and get it right and I enjoy the challenge.

[Burtog]

Although the drum programming can be a bit of a chore, it's also very educational. For example, the verse of a song might have the same drum pattern for the first, second, and fourth measures but the drummer changes it slightly in the third measure, perhaps adding a crash cymbal or an extra snare hit. I could play all four measures the same and it would probably sound fine. But I like the challenge of figuring out how to get that third measure right. It forces me to learn new things about Hydrogen. Then the next song I do will be slightly less of a chore because I know that much more about Hydrogen. So it's worth the effort to try and get it right and I enjoy the challenge.

I agree that trying to copy an original is a very worth while idea, especially when you are learning the basics but trying to copy drums is a real PITA, I have the BR800 and drum editor software which I use but its slow - never understood why you can't paste and copy on that software to speed up the process.

So Hydrogen then - is this free software 64??