Few track copy/save questions...

[dragonshade]

Hello everyone. I am new here, and just got my Micro BR a week ago. A pleasure to have a group like this to learn and share from/with. I have been playing guitar for many years (way more off than on), and had no idea such a powerful multi-track recorder was available so cheaply, and so small.

Anyway I have had a blast over the last week and am working on a song now with many tracks already done, and have finally figured most of this "magic little chrome box".

My questions are...

1) If you master to a v-track (let's say 3-4/V-5) is that track later re-recordable? When I go back to it and try to record over the V-track I still here the master (overboosted) and with a loud buzz. This only happens on a track I recently mastered. (this track "plays" fine) Of course I can re-record on any on my other V-tracks with no problem.

2) How exactly do you copy tracks and more importantly can I record a mono "track 3" guitar harmony, and then copy it to "track 4" so I have both on the same piece?

3) What is the benefit to mono recording mixed with stereo... in other words I have 2 guitars together on tracks 1 & 2 (in stereo), I want to add some harmonies. Would it be better to do a harmony in stereo on 3 & 4, and bounce it panned heavy left, and then repeat panned to left.   ........OR  add 2 mono harmony tracks (left and right). What is the benefit of either/both in regard to the other? Doi I get more separation adding mono?

4) Lastly, (for now lol), can I make an exact copy of my song as it is (with all virtual tracks and all) to save. This way I could continue and get more complicated without worry of damaging what I have to this point by having a current backup. (also I can have more V-tracks to work with... now I am saving each instrument's part on separate V-tracks so I can remix all again later if I want to, and am running out of room)


Thanks everyone and a pleasure to meet you all.

Ray

[Glenn Mitchell]

Probably too many questions on on post to get all the answers.
You can record over any track and it will work unless that is "protected".
It is most likely some setting was not right when you tried. It can be confusing at first.

 You need to consider bouncing and how to plan it.
don't worry about degrading the sound. this doesn't happen with digital.
EG do 4 different guitar trax t1,t2,t3,t4 all on v1
Then mix the levels and positions.
Then bounce to 2 other V trax. say T1&2 V8 (I like to keep them apart for visual reference)
Now you can go into T1 thru 4 but V2 and do 4 more, mix and position and bounce to T3&4 V8
Now you have 8 trax on 4
Etc etc.
When you are done, mix the final bounced track pairs and master to say T1&2 V7 and it will ask to be exported to wav or mp3.

[dragonshade]

Cool, thanks. So you are recording each guitar track in mono? As in 4 separate tracks? How does that effect end "stereo" result?


(sorry I'm new to recording)

[64Guitars]

The Micro BR has a built-in 4-channel mixer.  Four tracks in -- 2-channel stereo out. The pan control on each track determines the panoramic position of the track in the mixer's stereo output.

[64Guitars]

1) If you master to a v-track (let's say 3-4/V-5) is that track later re-recordable? When I go back to it and try to record over the V-track I still here the master (overboosted) and with a loud buzz. This only happens on a track I recently mastered. (this track "plays" fine) Of course I can re-record on any on my other V-tracks with no problem.

There should be no problem recording to any track, whether it has previously been recorded or not. I have a hunch that you don't yet fully understand v-tracks, bouncing, and mastering. See this page for a full explanation:

http://www.geocities.com/sixtyfourguitars/BossBr/Tutorials/V-Tracks_and_Bouncing.html

Bounce mode and Mastering mode are similar. They both allow you to record the stereo output of the mixer (the current 4-track mix) to a pair of v-tracks. The difference is that mastering also allows you to apply effects from the Mastering Tool Kit and, optionally, export the result to an MP3 file or WAV file. Mastering is normally only done as the final step in creating a song, and even then it's optional. Bouncing might be done several times in the creation of a song if you record many tracks. It lets you record two more tracks while monitoring a stereo mix of all of the previously recorded tracks. For example, if you wanted to record a total of eight tracks for your song, the procedure would be like this:

 - Record 4 tracks
 - Bounce
 - Record 2 more tracks
 - Bounce
 - Record 2 more tracks
 - Master

2) How exactly do you copy tracks and more importantly can I record a mono "track 3" guitar harmony, and then copy it to "track 4" so I have both on the same piece?

Yes. See pages 53 to 55 of the Micro BR manual.

4) can I make an exact copy of my song as it is (with all virtual tracks and all) to save.

Yes. See pages 104 and 105 of the Micro BR manual. However, this backs up the entire card rather than a single song.

[dragonshade]

Hey thanks for the info. I'm going to that page to read through the tutorial, thanks again.

I guess what was confusing is that in the manual it said to record a guitar in 2 tracks in stereo for best result, and I was thinking if I did just one track for a guitar it would be lacking in sound when mixed down. (Being originally recorded in mono as opposed to stereo).

Let me explain what I have going on....

I am doing a cover of Metallica's Fade to Black. (first project on my MBR... trying to construct a known song).

I started with the bass and drums recorded on 1&2 in stereo.

Recorded 1st clean guitar parts in stereo on 3&4.

Bounced to tracks 1/2.

Recorded 2st clean guitar parts in stereo on 3/4.

Bounced to tracks 1/2.

Recorded 1st distorted guitar parts in stereo on 3/4.

Bounced to 1/2.

Recorded 2cd distorted guitar parts in stereo on 3/4.

Bounced to 1/2.


Now I am ready to lay in harmonies. I'll be panning these out more to the sides... should I follow the above process (mixing them in softer/lower volume of course). OR just record left harmony on 3 and right on 4 in mono? If I do this how will the mono sound blend with the stereo recorded guitar parts.

[64Guitars]

I guess what was confusing is that in the manual it said to record a guitar in 2 tracks in stereo for best result, and I was thinking if I did just one track for a guitar it would be lacking in sound when mixed down. (Being originally recorded in mono as opposed to stereo).

I can't find anything in the Micro BR manual that suggests you should record your guitar to two tracks. The output of an electric guitar is mono and you should normally record it to a single track. The exception is when you're using certain effects (tap delay or pan) which take the mono input from the guitar and produce a stereo output. In that case, you need to record to two tracks to preserve the stereo effect.

I started with the bass and drums recorded on 1&2 in stereo.

If you mean that you recorded the bass on track 1 and the drums on track 2, that's not recording in stereo. You might pan those tracks and listen to them in the stereo output of the mixer but, until you bounce your tracks, you don't have a stereo recording.

Are you recording an acoustic or electronic drum kit? If so, you should record it in stereo to two tracks. On the other hand, if you're saying that you recorded the BR's internal drum machine to track 2, there's no need to do that. When you create the 2-track master of your song, the drums will be included in stereo. Until then, you should not record the drums as it uses up tracks unnecessarily and prevents you from changing the arrangement or adjusting the drum levels relative to the other tracks.

I started with the bass and drums recorded on 1&2 in stereo.
Recorded 1st clean guitar parts in stereo on 3&4.
Bounced to tracks 1/2.
Recorded 2st clean guitar parts in stereo on 3/4.
Bounced to tracks 1/2.
Recorded 1st distorted guitar parts in stereo on 3/4.
Bounced to 1/2.
Recorded 2cd distorted guitar parts in stereo on 3/4.
Bounced to 1/2.

Now I am ready to lay in harmonies. I'll be panning these out more to the sides... should I follow the above process (mixing them in softer/lower volume of course). OR just record left harmony on 3 and right on 4 in mono? If I do this how will the mono sound blend with the stereo recorded guitar parts.

As I said, it depends on what effects (if any) you use with the guitar. If you're using the tap delay or pan effects, then you should record to two tracks. Otherwise, just record to a single track.

Mono tracks can be panned anywhere you like in the stereo mixer output. Stereo tracks should be panned with the odd-numbered track full left (L50) and the even-numbered track full right (R50).

[dragonshade]

64.... I really appreciate your time and info, thank you. Reading through what you wrote you actually answered some other questions I had.

<<<I can't find anything in the Micro BR manual that suggests you should record your guitar to two tracks. The output of an electric guitar is mono and you should normally record it to a single track. The exception is when you're using certain effects (tap delay or pan) which take the mono input from the guitar and produce a stereo output. In that case, you need to record to two tracks to preserve the stereo effect.>>>


            ......... I must not have read things correctly. I was thinking you'd get better guitar sound recording in stereo... so there is no difference in mono except overall sound level with a guitar track? I do like to lay a few guitar layers and pan them some towards one side or another. So what I am getting at is that I could have as good a sound if say track 1/2 was a stereo backing track, and I laid in 2 mono guitars... one panned some left on track 3... and one panned some right on track 4... then bounce. As opposed to making a stereo 3/4 guitar to add to the backing and then bouncing copies of this track (in stereo, one at a time to the backing track)??


<<<If you mean that you recorded the bass on track 1 and the drums on track 2, that's not recording in stereo. You might pan those tracks and listen to them in the stereo output of the mixer but, until you bounce your tracks, you don't have a stereo recording.>>>

     ....Thanks for the info. No, on this bass/drums were "line-in" recorded in stereo on 1/2. However I would have thought the drums (which I have yet to play with) on the MBR would have had to be recorded on 2 tracks in stereo... thanks, saves some time/hassle.


<<<As I said, it depends on what effects (if any) you use with the guitar. If you're using the tap delay or pan effects, then you should record to two tracks. Otherwise, just record to a single track.

Mono tracks can be panned anywhere you like in the stereo mixer output. Stereo tracks should be panned with the odd-numbered track full left (L50) and the even-numbered track full right (R50).>>>


Please clear this up for me. What and why do you mean by this. I will usually play with the "pan" setting in the MBR when bouncing. I am using no effects that are not in the MBR (plugging straight in). Of course most of what I have done so far is recorded in stereo so I using settings like L05/R50 (to give a heavy right feel to that guitar). Am I doing this wrong?


Do you know of any in-depth tutorial or detailed user guide for the MBR? The manual just does not seem to be enough.

Thanks

[Glenn Mitchell]

The result of putting in the same guitar part on 2 channels is often called "Big Mono". IOW unless you change something on one of them, EG the effect or re-record the track and play the same thing along, you might just as well put one channel to the middle.

The drums do not use a track but are inserted in stereo during a bounce if you have them on.

[64Guitars]

I must not have read things correctly. I was thinking you'd get better guitar sound recording in stereo... so there is no difference in mono except overall sound level with a guitar track? I do like to lay a few guitar layers and pan them some towards one side or another. So what I am getting at is that I could have as good a sound if say track 1/2 was a stereo backing track, and I laid in 2 mono guitars... one panned some left on track 3... and one panned some right on track 4... then bounce. As opposed to making a stereo 3/4 guitar to add to the backing and then bouncing copies of this track (in stereo, one at a time to the backing track)??

Recording a mono signal from a guitar to two tracks doesn't make it stereo. It just gives you two identical mono tracks, or "Big Mono" as M_Glenn_M suggested. Stereo is when you have two tracks containing the same performance (instrument, voice, etc.) but recorded from a different perspective, or altered in some way to make them slightly difference. For example, if you record an acoustic drum kit with two mics placed above the kit and spaced about 3 or 4 feet apart with each mike going to a separate track, the snare will be louder on one track and the floor tom will be louder on the other. Also, the sound being reflected off different surfaces in the room will be picked up differently by each mic due to their distance from the surfaces. This gives a sort of ambience to the recording which makes it more realistic than mono. But, if you recorded that same drum kit with a single mic instead of two, then the signal would be mono and recording it to two tracks wouldn't change that - it would just waste a track.

Like a single mic, the electric guitar produces a mono signal and should be recorded to a single track unless the signal is electronically altered by an effect to produce stereo. This can be done by the pan effect, for example (see page 73). If recorded to two tracks, it will cyclically move the mono signal between the two tracks. Likewise, the tap delay effect (page 69) will pan the delayed sound between the two tracks.

So, yes, a layered guitar sound can be achieved by recording two mono tracks separately and panning them as desired so that one is more to the left and the other more to the right. You might also want to experiment with recording your guitar through the tap delay to two tracks. This can produce somewhat of a layered sound without having to record the guitar a second time.

<<<Mono tracks can be panned anywhere you like in the stereo mixer output. Stereo tracks should be panned with the odd-numbered track full left (L50) and the even-numbered track full right (R50).>>>

Please clear this up for me. What and why do you mean by this. I will usually play with the "pan" setting in the MBR when bouncing. I am using no effects that are not in the MBR (plugging straight in). Of course most of what I have done so far is recorded in stereo so I using settings like L05/R50 (to give a heavy right feel to that guitar). Am I doing this wrong?

Stereo is all about the apparent position of different sounds between the left and right channels on playback. Consider the example above of the acoustic drum kit recorded with two mics. The snare will appear to be coming from the left side while the floor tom will appear to be coming from the right. One of the upper toms might appear to come from slightly left of center while the second upper tom appears to come from slightly right of center. Now, if you were to pan those two tracks to the right, the snare, upper toms, and floor tom would all appear to be coming from the same location on the right. The stereo separation of the snare and floor tom is lost. That's why you pan stereo tracks full left (L50) and full right (R50). You want the information that was recorded to the track for the left channel to stay in the left channel, and you want the information that was recorded to the track for the right channel to stay in the right channel.

Do you know of any in-depth tutorial or detailed user guide for the MBR? The manual just does not seem to be enough.

I haven't seen anything specifically for the Micro BR yet other than Pedro's excellent videos. You should also read everything you can find on the Micro BR, as well as other BR models (they are all very similar). Read through all of the past messages here at microrecorders.org, as well as in Yahoo!'s Boss BR group. There are also several tutorials here at microrecorders.org as well as on my own website. And the Library section of my website has links to many documents on recording, some of which are from Roland and aimed at BR users.