Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[Flash Harry]

One thing that I am struck by and delighted with throughout this thread is how passionately people feel about this place, everyone has invested so much of themselves in this site that it is quite humbling.
I know that the guys on the admin team care about how we run the site but to see that this care and love of the place extends to the contributors to this degree is fantastic.

This has been an eye opener for me.  I'm so glad I'm here. I want this place to work for the people who use it. I want people who contribute to feel that they can continue to contribute and have fun, learn as they go, get support and nurture and feel good about the music that they have made. I don't want to make it awkward to use or irritating getting to the bits you want to get at.

It may be worth pointing out that 64Guitars has enhanced the site remarkably over the past year or so, member jukeboxes, on this day, festivals, not to mention the stuff he has done for the Picasso project, Jemima's Kite and Geir Sings the Beatles. All of these have to my mind at least, improved access to the stuff I want to hear or reminded me of stuff that I have forgotten about for example that wonderful track that Osckilo and OldRottenHead did, Back to earth, which still stops me dead in my tracks.

So argue your points passionately my friends, it's your place. And mine; I want it to be here until I care for music no longer.   

[64Guitars]

I can see how reorganization of the site would be beneficial but I'm not sure the word 'General' is best

I'm not sure that General is the best word either. It's already been used quite a bit here. We have a General Discussion category, a General Discussion board, a General board in Songwriting, and a General board in Home Recording. So if anyone can think of a better name, I welcome your suggestions.

as it suggests it is the normal or main body of the board

It is the normal or main board. The DIY boards are the specialised ones with restrictions on what can be posted. The General board has no restrictions other than the basic ones that apply to all of the boards.

it is afterall a sort of 'everything else allowed' board.

Not "everything else", but "everything". As I said, the general board will be the main board and members can post anything they like there within the basic restrictions that apply to all of the boards (must be legal; must have member content; must be finished, except for the Work in Progress board). They can even post their DIY songs in General if they really want to. Although, I would hope that most members will want to use the DIY boards instead for any songs they've created themselves or with other members. But we won't insist on that. It's up to the poster. So the General board really is the main board for posting songs. The DIY boards are optional, specialised boards for those members who believe in the spirit of Songcrafters and want to create their music themselves or with other members.

[Saijinn Maas]

My point Bluesy is that you cannot force people to work together. For various reasons, some people play guitar and only play guitar. Not all that is created by a member is gold for the sole reason that it is member created. Maybe one finds that the backer created professionally for guitarists to download is much more technically involving than those created by a member. It could be that that member created backer makes one feel orange, while the other one makes one feel pink, it doesn't really matter. If you specifically don't think it is interesting enough to listen to someone just because the backer they used was not member created then that is your choice. You cannot then force that preference on others; which is essentially what you are doing when you relegate those to a known black hole. "Either learn to play more instruments, use a backer made by the 'union', or find yourself posting your stuff into oblivion.

Hell, I don't particularly think rap is nearly as musically interesting as most other types of music, so maybe we should make them post in another board so that their posts don't affect my, much more technically proficient and better, music. Hell, lets make sure we separate everything that I feel is less interesting. I don't particularly care for country music...

My issue with backers is that somebody else did 90% of the music.

How is that different than doing a collab? I got one person doing a bass line, some else does the rhythm guitar (2 two tracks, another lays down a killer keyboard track, yet another uses their gr-55 to lay down some violin and horns, then her I come to lay down my solo... The ONLY thing different in my scenario is that although my contribution is the same in both, only one of them used members to do it all. Guess which one isn't allowed to post with the others?

To take a backer off the internet, add a guitar solo over the top and post it is kind of like cheating in my opinion.  If a person wants to do a guitar based instrumental, then make the backer yourself.

Come on Bluesy! So now you are the music police? Now, YOU get to decide what is worthy or not? Use union workers or stay away. Nice... (my example scenario above applies)

Reading 64g's newest post it seems to me that I was not the only one who thought that the "general" board was not intended to be the main board. Though, after reading 64g's answer, greatly clearing it up, I am left wondering why the DIY boards are even necessary then? It just adds a new division I hadn't thought of... Those who agree with the "spirit of songcrafters", and those who do not. After all... The goal is that everyone here would go along with the "spirit of songcrafters". This is the goal that the powers that be wish to achieve for the site. It is this ideal that would cause the DIY board to then be the main board. It is clear that it is the hope of the elite that everyone should think this way.

Sorry if I am being an ass, but I am frustrated that no one else sees it.

Member made backer + my guitar solo = worthy
Professional, and legal, backer + my guitar solo = unworthy
(though, MY contribution was the same for either case)
"Sure, I can just ignore the posts of those I deem unworthy, but I cannot abide by having their one instrument playing backers, on the same board as my music! What if they knock my post off the main page?? *gasp*"

Okay... I guess I wasn't done.

[64Guitars]

I do not disagree with your proposed structure or philosophy.

But I have to ask "What if we just left it as is?"

It's a fair question, and leaving it as-is is certainly a possibility. But I think the proposed changes will make the site better for everyone. Obviously, we can't please everyone and there will always be a few people who want something different. But the proposed changes are pretty minor and I find it hard to believe that anyone would think the current board structure is better than what we've proposed and we should just leave it as it is. Certainly the fans of backing tracks wouldn't want to leave it as is. With the current board structure, the Backing Track Jams board is seldom visited by anyone. But with the new structure, backing track jams can be posted in the main board where they'll get more attention. Why would any backing track fan be opposed to that? Sure, a few may want more. But they have to admit that the proposed structure is much better for them than the current structure.

Is there something that is not working well or otherwise interfering with the functioning of the site?

Yes. There are a number of minor issues that we felt needed improvement.

1) We've always believed that the spirit of Songcrafters is about creating our own music or collaborating with other members. And we've always felt that that was the purpose of the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards. But there has been an increasing number of posts in those boards which included non-member performances. We'd like to move those posts to another board but currently there is no suitable board for them. Creating the General board gives us a place for anything that includes non-member performances. Also, although it has always been our feeling that the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards are for member-only recordings, we've never actually stated that. So I thought I'd take this opportunity to clearly state what the philosophy and direction of Songcrafters is, and rename the Original Songs and Cover Songs boards so that everyone knows they are only for member performances.

2) The Backing Track Jams board has always been a problem because nobody visits it and the backing track fans feel like outcasts. That was never the intention and in hindsight I think that creating a separate board just for backing track jams was a mistake. But we still don't want backing track jams in the same board as the songs that are performed entirely by members. So I thought, why not treat the DIY boards as the exception rather than the backing tracks. That way, they're separate from everything else and they can truly reflect the spirit of Songcrafters. And at the same time, the backing track jams are no longer alone. They're in the main board with lots of other types of posts, so they'll get a lot more attention.

3) I think that a lot of people (especially new members) don't really get what the Collaborations board is for, and it's not getting a great deal of activity (only 10 new topics last month, and 7 so far this month). So I thought that renaming it to Work in Progress might make its purpose clearer. At the same time, it gives us a place to move the lyrics posts and 'pre-release' mixes of songs (see next two points).

4) A lot of topics are getting multiple posts due to remixes, etc. Unfortunately, all of these versions of the song get included in all of the jukeboxes, which makes them messy and confusing. Ultimately, the song database feature I'm working on will solve this problem but I don't know when that will be finished. So, in the meantime, I thought that putting some of the alternate mixes in the Work in Progress board (particularly those where it's known that the song's not finished) would reduce the number of song repetitions in the jukeboxes.

5) The Lyrics board and the Songcrafter Tributes board have had very little activity, so we thought we should merge them into other boards.

Will re-organizing improve our Songcrafters experience?

For most members, yes. Certainly, it will be improved for people who use backing tracks because their posts will now be allowed in the main board where they'll get more attention. It will also be improved for the vast majority of members who share our view of the spirit of Songcrafters since the DIY boards will only include songs that reflect that spirit. But you can't please all of the people all of the time, so there are bound to be a few who will resist the changes. That's unfortunate but inevitable.

You know, when Pedro proposed changes to the site a couple of years ago, a lot of us resisted, including me to some extent. I thought some of his ideas were wrong for the site and I wanted him to leave it as it was. But, looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I think he did the right thing and Songcrafters is a much better site now because of his changes. Sometimes you just have to go with changes and hope that they work out for the best. Quite often they do, despite our reservations.

[64Guitars]

What real reason is there to separate Originals from Covers?

Years ago, there was a very lengthy discussion about how best to organise the boards and it became clear that many of our members aren't big fans of covers and would rather listen to original songs most of the time. It also became clear that, due to the site's increasing popularity, it was becoming impossible for most members to read all of the posts. There are just too many. So it was suggested that song posts be divided into several boards so that members could just listen to the ones that interested them most and for which time allowed. I think it has worked out great for the separate Original Songs and Cover Songs boards. They each have a great deal of activity.

Meaning no offense to anyone... But I do think that making the Originals and Covers for "Member Performed Only" is quite frankly pretentious and a tad "Big Brother". Now I can't post stuff I've worked on with other musicians unless they are members here?

Of course you can still post songs you've worked on with non-members! It's not a question of what you can post. It's a question of where to post it.

How can we seclude members who only play one instrument?

No one is being secluded. All members are welcome to post in the General board.

The vast majority of our members are primarily guitarists. If guitar is the only instrument you play, you're in luck because the BR series recorders were designed with you in mind. They include a programmable drum machine so that you can easily add drums to your songs. Most of them include a bass simulator effect so that you can record a bass track using your regular 6-string guitar. If your BR doesn't have a bass simulator, you can use Audacity to achieve the same thing. I've described how to do this in the past but would be happy to repeat it for anyone who wants help. So, you've got bass, drums, rhythm guitar and lead guitar. The only thing missing for most rock music is vocals. If you're not a singer, there are at least two excellent ways to solve that. You can ask one of our members to add vocals for you, or you can make your song an instrumental. I've posted several instrumentals here. FenderBender has posted some excellent instrumentals. So has antisocialworker and several other members. There's nothing wrong with an instrumental, so not being able to sing needn't be an excuse to use backing tracks. Any guitarist can create interesting rock music using only his guitar and his BR.

Of course, not everyone wants to play rock music. If you want to play big band jazz, for example, then bass, drums, and guitar is not enough. But if you wanted to play big band jazz, I'd think you'd have taken up trumpet or trombone instead of the guitar.

Also, modern keyboards can emulate almost any instrument, can be inexpensive, and don't require a great deal of skill to play simple melodies or chord progressions. So anyone can use a keyboard to make layered, multi-instrument recordings on their BR. Backing tracks are not required to accomplish this.

Though I would hope members get comfortable enough to collab with other members, we cannot force them to work with others.

We're not trying to force anyone to do anything. We'd like to encourage all of our members to create their own music or collaborate with other members. But we're not insisting on it. Members are still welcome to use backing tracks, loops, and midi files in their recordings and post them in the General board.

Perhaps some new Message Icons:
OG = Original
CV = Covers
BT = Backing Track

Naa. That assumes that all song posts would go in a single board and we don't want that. Besides, nobody would set their message icon and that job would fall to the admin team. We've got enough to do already, thank you very much.

Perhaps Challenges can have it's own board. It used to be pretty popular here until the boards were changed to relegate those to the ether.

It seems to me that the initial challenge would be a text message, so it should go in the General Discussion board. The song post responses to that challenge would then go in whichever board is most suitable. If a member's response to the challenge is a recording he made himself or with other members, then he can post it in one of the DIY boards. If he chooses to use a backing track, loop, or midi file, or collaborates with a non-member, then he can post his response in the General board. I don't see a need for a separate Challenges board but it's a possibility we can consider. What we've learned from past experience is that making a separate board for something that's not very popular can be a failure because nobody wants to visit that board. So maybe handling challenges the way I've described above would be best.

As for Collaborations. I too believe it is an important part of this community. However, "Work In Progress" just doesn't sound right. I think it is too vague. It sounds like a place you would post to get feedback on something you are currently working on, not where you would go to find collabs. I would like to suggest something like "Help Wanted". It's short and clear and obvious that you wouldn't post the final result in this location.

If people don't like the name "Work in Progress", we'll consider alternative suggestions that anyone would like to make. "Help Wanted" isn't bad, but I have a fear that newbies will think that's the place to post tech questions, etc. Yes, I know it's under Post Your Work but newbies might not understand the significance of that. Also, I'd like a name that's general enough to allow us to move lyrics there and 'pre-release' mixes of songs.

[Tony W]

2) The Backing Track Jams board has always been a problem because nobody visits it and the backing track fans feel like outcasts. That was never the intention and in hindsight I think that creating a separate board just for backing track jams was a mistake. But we still don't want backing track jams in the same board as the songs that are performed entirely by members. So I thought, why not treat the DIY boards as the exception rather than the backing tracks. That way, they're separate from everything else and they can truly reflect the spirit of Songcrafters. And at the same time, the backing track jams are no longer alone. They're in the main board with lots of other types of posts, so they'll get a lot more attention.

I really don't think it was a mistake, and certainly nothing for you or the rest of the staff to feel guilty about. Backers are clearly frowned upon by the moral majority, the comments (or lack of) don't lie.

With that said, I think there's too much debate regarding backing tracks, as they are not the focus of the minor changes. It's quite clear that backers and DIY will not mix, therefore Dave should be happy, he won't get bumped off the main page. Backers will still have a place to be posted, and may actually receive a comment that wasn't sought after via PM (that's how I got my comments, and yes I'm ashamed I had to resort to it).

I had a really long dissertation type out, which may have contained some pointed comments, but I let it ride for an hour or 2 and decided that it wasn't necessary.

In a nutshell the proposed changes are clearly advantageous or have no ill effect. 

[Tony W]

on a side note, I don't even think the google spiders go to the backing track boards... LOL

[Oldrottenhead]

i love singing karaoke over backing tracks and feel a bit left out,instead of a backing track board can we not call it karaoke.

one section for singers
and one for guitars.

[T.C. Elliott]

To take a backer off the internet, add a guitar solo over the top and post it is kind of like cheating in my opinion.  If a person wants to do a guitar based instrumental, then make the backer yourself.  We have all the technology and tools we need to make our own backers, why use backers at all when you are trying to create a piece of music.  I love hearing instrumental music, especially guitar based.  I am less interested in listening to somebody soloing over a backer, the same backer that i have heard 100's of times before.  Why use a backer at all in these cases, create something from scratch.

I think that Bluesberry has hit the point square on the head (in a round about kind of way.) There are a lot more people out there that make their living as a musician playing an instrument than writing songs. Most musicians do both to some degree or other. A well crafted guitar line in a song can be as valuable or more valuable as the song itself. All those classic rock riffs that let us remember an average song otherwise would be an example.

BUT, it seems that the point of this site is to be primarily songwriting. Yes it's a home recording site and a everything else you can think of dealing with music site to some degree. But by emphasizing MEMBER ONLY submissions, and segregating backing tracks and songs not made 100% by members, there is a change.

I am not sure I like that idea. But that being said, I do think the new organization, if it had been here when I joined, would be preferable to the organization we have now. So if the choice is stay the same or go to the submitted changes, I vote (not that we need votes or anything) to make the changes. As I've implied, I'd like to see a few changes to the changes being implemented, but I'm pretty confident that with the community here we will work through any problems. I am more than sure that, if problems arise, the admin staff will address issues in the future.

-- As far as board names. The only thing I don't like about the current board is clicking on general and then clicking on general again. A board name like 'free for all' or 'open submission' or 'players lounge' or 'The songcrafters lounge' or any one of many other names would work much better than general discussion or general songs or whatever. 
    And while I kind of poked fun of the MEMBERS ONLY idea, spelling it out in the forums might not be a bad idea. (maybe remove the 'only.') I like DIY as well.

oh and while I'm at it (RAMBLE ON! (drums)) - I know it's been mentioned that songs drop off the list faster if it is on one board. But I generally read, or at lest peruse, the entire list. So instead of having 10 or 15 headings make it 25 or 30 or even 50 and I will much more likely see everything on the front page. Yes at 50 I might not hit the bottom few, but if you had 50 and the top 40 were commented on in the past 2 days I would scan and or click on most of them. My suggestion at being able to sort songs would be a handy way to implement it as well.

okay, done rambling (drum solo ends)

[Burtog]

I think it's fair to say members personal tastes will set the trends to what is most viewed or listened to overall. While some guys on here try and listen and comment on everything I would say I'm a bit lazy and pick out the originals or covers that might appeal to me. Backing tracks might not be my thing so I havent even checked them out yet...sorry.

Could an extra festival topic run alongside the other two which might promote the lesser visited boards? Not sure exactly how that would work, twas just an idea?

I like the term 'free for all' as a general board name too!