Songcrafters.org

Here's a new one. Still acoustic, no drums or rockin'... and this time it's all acoustic guitar... quite a few of them... and every single one tuned to DADGAD! :o

Actually, it's quite an old song. According to my records, I wrote it on the 22nd June 1994... I'm getting old - I have songs older than my nephews and nieces :D

It's about the only good thing that came out of an aborted novel I was trying to write. The novel had the same title, but when the song appeared I lost interest and it kind of fizzled out.

I wrote it in a standard tuning, but I was experimenting with DADGAD at the time. My drummer wanted us to do it like that, but I couldn't play it. Also the way they were approaching it wasn't quite what I was hearing, so I quietly withdrew it from consideration.

Anyway, I've just spent the last two months learning how to use DADGAD so that I could record it.

And now I've spent a fraught and extremely tiring three days recording it. Mrs R suggested that I post the guitars on their own two days ago, because it sounded quite Christmassy, but it didn't feel quite right.

I've really enjoyed recording it, but I'm so relieved it's over. I'm quite pleased with the result, but it's not quite what I was expecting :D.

Absolute sheer class, there is something really special about this song.

Top drawer acoustic work, stunning lead vocals and those backing vocals/harmonies really just are the icing on the cake for me.

All of your songs strike me as being meticulously prepared and performed, leaving no stone unturned...I am so jealous ;).

Just fantastic!

FMGWABP

stunning andy


 one for the piepod

Perfect as always, Andy! There are a lot of great musicians here whose songs I really love and play a lot, but yours are the best IMO. Post some more please! :)

Regards,
  Steffen

Oh , this is so Roy Harper , but very definately AndyR , what a terrific song , and flawless production , open tunings just sound so good when played this well .
first of many listens today , thanks Andy , merry xmas mate

Rob

What a great Christmas presant too us all!!

This is just brilliant !! And what a fabulous arrangement. Just guitars and voice and you make it sound like an orchestra !!!

QuoteI've just spent the last two months learning how to use DADGAD so that I could record it.

that's what I call determination !!!

(I'd probably use two hours  (including recording the song ;D). note to self: 2011 shall be the year of determination !!!)

I was a bit worried after I'd posted it - I did a bit of an "orh" (by my standards :D) on the final mix and mastering. I was so keen on getting it finished and posted before christmas that I just banged it together and whacked it up here while we were watching Scrooge (Albert Finney version :)).

I used the "Pop Mix" mastering preset on the BR1600. The other candidate was the "Orchestral Mix" preset. "Orchestral" gave more clarity and breath across everything. The backing vocals and some of the nuances in the guitar parts seemed to benefit from it, but it also seemed slightly soul-less in comparison.

I listened to this one ("Pop Mix") on here yesterday, on the Missus's PC speakers and thought "Oh dear ???, I need to redo that on boxing day...".

But I've just listened to it again prior to our "boxing day walk", to decide on what to do later, and I think I might leave it. The mastering is OK as is, I think. The only way I could improve would be to go back and remix the guitars so that some of the "strummers" quieten down in the pauses at the end/begining of verses (I needed these for time-keeping during vocals). However, to do that, and get it back to the same vibe, would be a VERY difficult job to do. It might even take another whole day to track down the parts and remember what I did with them...

I shall think it over while we're road-testing our new wooly hats and fleeces etc... :D

Anyway, thanks for the comments so far folks... glad you likes it. I'm very very fond of this song, it has certain resonances and memories about the "younger Andrew R" and at least two ladies who were very important in his emotional life.

Roy Harper - interesting... I supported him once in the early/mid 80s and, yes, I remember all the lush guitar sounds he was making on stage from just one guitar and a huge effects rack sat next to him. That kind of thing didn't grab me then, but I do remember thinking he was getting some very cool sounds.

While I was recording this I was actually thinking John Martyn's Solid Air. Unfortunately my double-bass hasn't arrived yet (and I'll have to learn how to play it first!), so yes, I think the guitar approach has ended up more like what I remember of Roy Harper instead :D.

EDIT: Geir, you posted while I was typing, DADGAD is actually really easy (and really effective) when you get to grips with it. The main problems I was having were a) learning not to press so hard or apply so much vibrato to the down-tuned 1st and 2nd, and b) trying to stop fingers getting it the way of ringing open strings.

For the second point, I think a guitar with wider string spacing would be invaluable! :D

It's beautiful. Well played and sung very well. Also the choir singing is very good. I didnt listen to much to the lyrics and I did get the feel of a scottish or Irish song. Am I correct in that?

Anyway two thumbs up!

Really good song Andy, saying "really good" does not cover my true feelings about this song...there are really no words...it feels exquisite, so polished and full, like some long lost gem of a song from the early 70's...I see the Roy Harper comparison...I think it sounds very good using the "pop" setting...sounds deep and full and very well balanced. 

Quote from: stoman on December 25, 2010, 02:02:28 AMThere are a lot of great musicians here whose songs I really love and play a lot, but yours are the best IMO. Post some more please! :)

I would tend to agree with this too.

Quote from: Bluesberry on December 26, 2010, 07:35:45 AMI think it sounds very good using the "pop" setting...sounds deep and full and very well balanced. 

Oops! I have remastered and am in the process of transferring and checking on various devices even as I type this :D

Expect a replacement in the next 30 mins or so!!

OK, I've replaced it with the remaster now.

I used the "Orchestra" preset with a few tweaks. I also added some subtle dynamics to make the song travel a bit better from start to finsish.

It's not a remix, but it's amazing the difference that the mastering makes. The lead vocal is not so upfront and in-yer-face now, it's a lot nearer to the original intention. I'm afraid I was lured and enticed by the thick sound I heard on friday night after hours of mixing and tracking! :D

The big improvement for me, is that the acoustic guitars actually sound more acoustic now, like they do on the tracks, and the backing vocals have taken the place that they do in the actual mix I made... the whole thing breathes better... (It's less "deep and full" now, but is better "balanced"... sorry if you still prefer the "inferior" product BB! :D ;))

its subtle, without the two together to do a A/B I can't really say what all is different here, it really sounds good thats for sure, I guess you tamed down your main vocal down a bit, it was jumping out of the speakers more, I did like that...but this also sounds really good.  I guess that this one feels less live, more polished.  Maybe taming down the vocals did that, the guitar sounds fantastic...can't really remember the last one enough to say what improvements were made, but I can't imaging getting a better acoustic sound than this right here, so you must have improved them...I'll take your word for that one...they do sound fantastic now.  Backing vox seems a little more present or fills in the empty spaces better...something like that I guess.  Whatever you have done...I say it is subtle...and this sounds fantastic...and you are happy with the results...so it is success all around...good job Andy.   And such a great song, that I will play for a long time for my own listening pleasure.

That's AndyR quality right from beginning to the last notes. You are a perfectionist and this sounds so pro from a home recording system. Couldn't have sounded better if you used a huge studio.
Great Post.
Geoff

Andy, the new version sounds very clean. Actually too clean for my taste - I prefer the first version you posted (I just listened to both on headphones). That one was perfect. I'll keep both, but I'll probably only listen to version 1. :)

However, if you had not posted the other version before, I'd love this one just as much! :)

Regards,
  Steffen

:D I'm hearing the same thing now Steffen! (::)) It's just a bit too polite, isn't it...

What do think? - if I could get some of the push of the first version, but keep the clarity of the cleaner one, might that be an improvement over both?

The problem I have with the original is that a) the guitars sound a little unnatural and b) the backing vocals are too rich/soft and don't cut...

The problem with the new one is that it loses some of the punch/power...

I'll sleep on it and see what I think tomorrow... (I can see me putting the original back :D).

EDIT: 27/12/2010 Removed the extra version from this post when the finished master was linked to the OP.

Listened to both and like the cleaned original myself.  The remaster had me thinking "there's an opera in your future".  Maybe mix the remastered harmonies in with the originals for fullness (if possible?  Feels the original is at a slower speed maybe?)

Either way a very nice composition and production!

:D I must admit I get the speed thing every time I finish listening to one version and start listening to another! There's a definite rallentando at the end, so immediately hearing the start again is a bit confusing, for me especially, because I wrote it and always used to play it a lot slower (the early demos last week, same arrangement, weighed in at 4.30 instead of 3.30 ... it was a bit of a dirge!). Added to that, there's no click track on here, so I assume it varies anyway. All the various masters should be the same speed though!

I like both versions, but the clearer one is a bit "weak" in places. Just before she went to bed, my wife listened to both. She seemed to see what I was fretting about, but she personally preferred the original as well... so I've been fiddling...

I've got three more versions I'm sat on now, all are fuller than the remaster, but all have more of the clarity I was after. I'm convinced one of these is the one.

I think I know which one I'll post at the moment, but I'm going to go and sleep on it and see how they all compare tomorrow...

I'm utterly amazed at how much difference the mastering settings make - I'm using exactly the same mix every time, and I can produce a clear but slightly weak performance or a powerful/emotional performance but some of the parts seem to disappear... Weird, I knew mastering was important, and all the knobs must mean something, but I've pretty much been using it just to make things sound BIGGER most of the time.

Quote from: AndyR on December 26, 2010, 05:09:36 PMJust before she went to bed, my wife listened to both. She seemed to see what I was fretting about, but she personally preferred the original as well... so I've been fiddling...

You sound like you have a very patient and wonderfully supportive wife there...thats gold.  

Brilliant - reminds me of Traffic's folkier stuff. And those guitars ... I'm gonna try that tuning myself. Your vocal is commanding. A great, great song.

Quote from: AndyR on December 26, 2010, 02:18:36 PMThe problem I have with the original is that a) the guitars sound a little unnatural and b) the backing vocals are too rich/soft and don't cut...

I can't hear any problems with the guitar sound, Andy. I'll listen again with head phones and over my Genelecs later, but when I first listened to the original version, I thought it was perfect.

I don't think you should aim for clarity. Your music has that nice analog retro vibe. I like that much more than the clean, if not to say clinical, modern way of mixing, and I always try to get that sound for my own mixes too. That's why I use a lot of tape saturation and other means to distort and warm clean digital sounds.

Regards,
  Steffen

I saw you post this before Christmas and was saving it as a late Xmas pressie as I knew it would be a treasure. It's a wonderful song, I have to say quite redolent of Roy Harper, definitely more Roy than John Martyn for me. The vocals are really the centrepiece here and they are wonderful, great expression and feeling. You have wonderful vocal control and get great expression and tremolo into your vox without going over the top. The acoustic guitars create a wonderful lush pillow for the arrangement and really complement the story telling of the lyrics. As always, it's beautifully recorded and a pleasure to listen to.

Regarding the mixes, I've only listened on my M-Audios rather than headphones so that I got a cleaner and mpre realistic interpretation of each mix - headphones always colour the playback I find. I think both mixes work well and you could happily take either. I think the second mix has less body and presence but is a tad clearer and the guitars sound more like 12 strings, while on the first mix they sound more nylon-ish. I agree with Steffen that the first mix is warmer and I personally prefer it, but it is a little heavy on some of the mid ranges. You could always try remastering it with some cutting to the mids and some high end boost just to add some presence at the top end.

But it really doesn't need much tweaking. Both mixes are clear, balanced and sound great and the let the power of the song and the performance shine through. Fantastic work, a real pleasure to listen to!

Cheers,

Nigel

Many thanks for your help and comments guys.

Final remaster now attached to the original post - I likes it :)

Ferryman - you saved me a lot of effort with your post. I'd already figured out what I wanted to happen from steffen's and hardlock's input. But, to do it, I was getting all geared up to do a re-mix after tweaking and mastering the various submixes first - this probably would have worked (maybe even better) but it was going to take ages and could easily have been somewhat hit and miss. I had the machine warmed up I was calculating bounces and mastering phases and sipping my coffee thinking "oh...  :-\ here we go...".

And then your post arrived and it was all so OBVIOUS :D. All I had to do was use the same mix, go back to the "Pop" mastering preset and do some serious investigation into why and how it did what it did. With some fiddling I got the backing vox breathing how I wanted.

Steffen, I have a feeling you'll still prefer the original you have - but that's fine :D. Actually, eventually, I had no issue with the guitars on the original, you guys converted me! In fact, much of the time on the final one was spent taming the guitar top-end back nearer to this (without losing what I wanted from the bv's)... in the end I got a compromise I'm pleased with. The only way I could better it is with a complete remix, and even then I think something else might go astray.

Anyway, out of all of the versions I've heard now (and this is one of 3 since ferryman's post), this is my favourite and is closest to what I was aiming at during the mixing.

I'm not going to mess with it anymore (hence me removing the other two versions) until... err... well, when my double-bass arrives things might change again (after all, this was the song I was buying the bluddy thing for in the first place! :D)

If anyone feels like boosting Elizabeth's chart stats on soundclick, she's here (http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10041971). But it don't sound as good though (with whatever encoding/compression they do, the original would probably sound a lot better!).

It works perfectly for me. You've got a bit more presence and sharpness to the vox without losing the warmth on the guitars. Also, you've tamed the crescendo towards the end (I think about 3:20, the timer thing isn't working for me), which was clipping very slightly on the previous versions.  Just listened to it on headphones and I love the intimate sound you've created.

There's also a bit of Scott Walker in this for me - the strong vocals reminded me of some of his solo work. But it's definitely AndyR all over. Several thumbs up.

Cheers,

Nigel

Great song  so inspired !

and DADGAD give many atmosphere. Bravo !

What a great song and ingenious titile elizabeths room loved the guitar
vocals etc. well executed and superbly preformed. tc NEIL.............

QuoteIf anyone feels like boosting Elizabeth's chart stats on soundclick

Done! :)

Haven't listened to the latest version thoroughly yet - but will do later, when I'm in bed.

Regards,
  Steffen

Wow!  I'm late to the party on this one but what a treat to find this morning. Quality, quality, quality!  So expertly done all the way... great song, performance and production with a really nice rendering of acoustic guitar sounds and compelling vocals.  The backing vocals and harmony are so fine too... wish they were more up in the mix in some places.  It shows that a lot of thought and work went into planning and pulling this off.  Great job. Congratulations!  :)

Yes, it can be maddening... trying to decide which is the best mastered version. And ultimately there is still the problem of reference and the fact that it's going to sound a bit different on every different system it gets played on, speakers vs cans, etc.  Hard to find the perfect solution when there IS no perfect solution.   :-\


 

This is brilliant! Pure class all the way - and the production is oh so polished - magic!

i heard the first post i think i missed the second post and am now on the third post.

i should have downloaded when i heard as i cant compare now, however its still a bloody great song and performance, and at the end of the day that is the most important thing.

i dont think the average listener is gonna notice the differences in mixes and if the song wasnt any good they wouldnt listen to it at all.

on boxing day/night (there must be a song in that line) i let my friends hear this song about 4 or 5 of us , not sure which version was on.but anyway i said hey listen to this guy. we let it play three or four times before we got back to drinking and eating, but my friends told me to give up and leave the music to guys like you.

anyway i will be emailing them the link to your song player as mrs orh enforced a pc ban when visitors are here.

I think your choice was right, Andy. I like version 3 better than version 2, and I think I also like it better than version 1. Adding just a little bit(!) of clarity was indeed an improvement. It sounds more open now, has more air, but still does not lack coherence.

Well done! :)

I need some fresh air, so I'll put it on my mp3 player now and listen to it (and other songs of yours) while walking through the snow.

Regards,
  Steffen

Phew! I was waiting for that post Steffen :D

All this work has made me seriously wonder (again) about going back to Sleeping With The Ghost (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=6908) to sort out the mix and mastering, though.

SWTG could definitely benefit from rectifying the mistakes I knew I'd made when I posted it. Especially now that I know how to fix them. The two songs (and others) are kind of related, they are from the same period and box of scribbles - in fact, Elizabeth's Room was principle among the "other" songs I referred to in SWTG's thread, it was one of the ones I was always aiming at and scared of doing (there's at least one more).

ER and SWTG are also related in content, but I didn't realise it at the time, I was just banging out as many songs as I could.

The song Elizabeth's Room isn't a ghost story itself, but the aborted novel of the same name is. In the novel, the guy here is actually sat in "Elizabeth's Room" - it's the room that he lives in - but he hasn't met her yet. The readers have met her already in the prologue, where she, confused and disorientated, is aware of the initially angry neighbours who have been woken by the radio-alarm-clock that she didn't think to switch off.

All this was going through my head when I was writing the song, and I carry that baggage with me when I play, sing, and arrange it... That's probably why the backing vocals were SO important to me. I didn't want them too obvious, which is why I didn't want to remix, but I didn't want you to miss them either, which was why I couldn't live with the first master...

Not sure I should have explained this, because I'm a great believer in people making up their own stories when they listen to a song... but... oh well :D

Anyway, thanks for everyone's comments, much appreciated :)

And, orh - don't you worry none about the other masters, you're not missing nowt, this be the one :D

QuoteNot sure I should have explained this, because I'm a great believer in people making up their own stories when they listen to a song... but... oh well

One thing I like about you - besides your great music - is the elaborate and informative descriptions you give. Don't stop that! :)

Regards,
  Steffen

For me, every AndyR song that is posted becomes a whirlwind of emotion. I waited for days, until the time was right to give this a listen. I've found that as  I evolve musically, I make time for quality listening. If I'm anticipating phone calls, etc. I just won't do it anymore.

So, from the 2nd chord, I'm in the groove, and ready for the audible ride. The lyrics kick in, and there it is. The table is set, I'm all in. I smile, my eyes close and I enjoy the journey. When the last harmonic is struck, and the music is fading into the past, I realize it is going to be far too long before I hear another AndyR song. Such is life.

Here's another one that I've just moved over to alonetone.

I'm actually thinking of adding to it at the moment. I bought the electric double bass for this one, but I finished before it had arrived... I jammed along with it a few weeks back, but didn't feel I could improve on what's here already. But listening to it to test the link has made me think that a bass part could tie some of the guitars together. Could be a serious piece of remixing and mastering work though!  ::) :D

today I was doing my exercise routine using the treadmill and elliptical machine for cardio.  As usual I was listening to my 3000 song playlist on random play and this song popped up.  Of course i knew right away it was you although I didn't remember the song that well.  I thought as I listened what a fantastic recording you have here (good song too and I really love the guitar s.)
The very next song was Taylor Swift's "I Almost Do".... I got thinking that there wasn't much difference to me in the quality of the recordings and the songs fit together well also...
I just needed to mention that as I know you are a big fan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1AV_35zVwU