Songcrafters.org

Note: This topic has been renamed from "Weird Optimizing outcome"

To jump to the take-away lesson, click here (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br/weird-optimizing-outcome/msg41607/#msg41607).

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I think I get what Optimizing (Utility > TRK > OPT) is all about.  Saving space, yadda yadda...

Yesterday I had just bounced four tracks to TR34V8.  I had lots of v-tracks in use, so I thought I might optimize.

When I was done, TR3V8 was out of sync from TR4V8 by about two measures.

Fortunately, all of my volume, panning, and effects settings were saved so it was easy to just re-bounce.  Unfortunately, I had already begun working on a copy of the same song, so I ended up exporting TR34V8 from the original song to a WAV file, and importing it into TR34V8 to the new copy.  That made everything better--except for twice having to watch that slow progress bar while wondering if it was going to work.

Any thoughts, MBR geeks?

That's a puzzler.  Did you save/store the tune before you optimized?

I found another 2 GB card for less than $10.00 (American) the other day.  I think I will just store on computer hard drive or cards.  Little technical glitches like the one you mentioned drive me batty.

Blooby

Back it up, format the card, restore it.

danger! danger!

Sounds like a bug, Ted. There have been similar bugs with Song Optimize in earlier BRs, including the BR-864. Roland eventually released firmware updates to fix the problem. I still don't know what version 1.04 fixes in the Micro BR, so it's possible that it could fix a Song Optimize bug.

You'd probably be doing all Micro BR users a favour by reporting this to Roland Tech Support. The more people who report such problems, the better the chances of seeing a fix. While you're at it, you could ask them what fixes are included in 1.04. Of course, Roland U.S. might not even know that 1.04 exists. It's surprising how out-of-touch the different divisions of an international company can be. But it's worthwhile asking. If nothing else, it might prompt them to find out about 1.04 and get it on their website (with English instructions).

Meanwhile, I think all BR users could learn a lesson from this and try to remember to backup the memory card before doing a Song Optimize.

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 24, 2009, 05:43:08 PMMeanwhile, I think all BR users could learn a lesson from this and try to remember to backup the memory card before doing a Song Optimize.

Now that's what I meant to say....

I just got a bit panicky!

I have had my recorder shut off a few times while on AC power, no other electric devices were effected.

Also a few times I was sure I hit record, but nothing was recorded when I played it back.

Probably just me being a goof.

Every time I tried to work on the song, I got Card Read Errors, and Disk Busy messages.  I even tried a different SD card.

Conclusion: Nothing is wrong with the SD card, but one of the song files in this copy was corrupted and the Micro BR doesn't know the difference.

I won't ever optimize a song again unless I'm desperate and have no other options (at least until there's new firmware that explicitly fixes these problems).

I've had weird things happen on mine too. Takes not recorded when they should have, and it's always the one that you NAILED!!!!!! :( Retakes not overwriting the take before which was really confusing! Not had that one tho...

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 24, 2009, 05:43:08 PMYou'd probably be doing all Micro BR users a favour by reporting this to Roland Tech Support. The more people who report such problems, the better the chances of seeing a fix. While you're at it, you could ask them what fixes are included in 1.04. Of course, Roland U.S. might not even know that 1.04 exists. It's surprising how out-of-touch the different divisions of an international company can be. But it's worthwhile asking. If nothing else, it might prompt them to find out about 1.04 and get it on their website (with English instructions).

I posted both to Roland US support today.

Response from Roland:

QuoteIt's possible some data in that song became corrupted. This could be due to an error in the memory card, fragmentation, or a fluke thing. It would be a good idea to backup your songs and initialize the memory card to clear any remaining bad data, just to be safe.

"A fluke thing..."  Don't you hate it when they use all that technical jargon?

I'll let them know that I copied the song to another unfragmented, formatted, and initialized memory card and still got the errors. Stay tuned.

I've posted their response to my question about the firmware update here (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br/firmware-update-(version-1-04)-for-micro-br/msg41468/#msg41468).

I've only used optimise once (after backing up), it had exactly the same effect you described. I restored my backup and have never used optimise since - I don't really need it, I tend to have only one song on the card at a time and I backup a LOT anyway :D!

From Roland:

QuoteOptimizing does not corrupt the data.  We optimize all the time.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

Quote from: Flash Harry on July 24, 2009, 05:23:27 PMBack it up, format the card, restore it.

danger! danger!

I believe this should be done periodically whether you need to or not. I do it after every couple of songs - Used to have problems on occasion, but never after this strategy.

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 24, 2009, 05:43:08 PMMeanwhile, I think all BR users could learn a lesson from this and try to remember to backup the memory card before doing a Song Optimize.

Quote from: AndyR on July 30, 2009, 11:06:13 AMI've only used optimise once (after backing up), it had exactly the same effect you described. I restored my backup and have never used optimise since - I don't really need it, I tend to have only one song on the card at a time and I backup a LOT anyway :D!

The best way to do it in my opinion, Andrew and 64G's!!

I think everybody needs to get burnt once. Part of what I do for a living is disaster recovery - guess who the most common customer is? When someone loses the best song they ever wrote, it will then become important to back their shit up.

I can see this has happened to me, AndyR, Ted(Who has written a tutorial (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br/lessons-learned-from-a-fried-micro-br-(don%27t-fry-your-micro-br-and-backup)/0/) on why we should back up) and BB from what I know firsthand.

I definitely believe our technology should be brought up to snuff. A little experience needs to go with it, though.

To the non-backeruppers:

Please record and master a wonderful song on your BR. Something that you could never reproduce in a million years. Listen to it once and savor. Then use the SD card as a level for your coffee table. Feel the pain.

Yes, optimize your 3 minute redo's, but back your shit up...


Mark

Quote from: launched on July 30, 2009, 12:27:45 PMTo the non-backeruppers:

Please record and master a wonderful song on your BR. Something that you could never reproduce in a million years. Listen to it once and savor. Then use the SD card as a level for your coffee table. Feel the pain.

Beautiful.  I just added a new word to the glossary: DUMB (https://songcrafters.org/community/general-discussion-b8/bossbr-net-glossary/msg41510/#msg41510)

Quote from: Ted on July 30, 2009, 01:07:08 PMBeautiful.  I just added a new word to the glossary: DUMB (https://songcrafters.org/community/general-discussion-b8/bossbr-net-glossary/msg41510/#msg41510)

Just caught it - well put.

Quote from: Ted on July 30, 2009, 11:53:24 AM

Quote from: RolandOptimizing does not corrupt the data.  We optimize all the time.

It doesn't corrupt the song data (the actual chunks of audio that you've recorded). However, if the song optimize routine is buggy, it can corrupt the event table which points to all those chunks of song data and tells the BR which chunks to play and in what order. If the event table gets corrupted, the song will no longer play correctly even though all of the song data is still there and intact, and any further recording will make matters worse. If you backup at this point, format the card, then restore the backup, you'll probably be no further ahead because the backup includes the corrupt event table. That's why it's important to backup before you do a song optimize, while the event table is still intact.

Quote from: Ted on July 30, 2009, 11:54:46 AM

Quote from: RolandThe update improves how data is written to some types of SD memory cards that would otherwise give a write error.

If write errors occur during the song optimization process, the event table will very likely be corrupted and the song will play back scrambled. It's possible that the song optimize routine does not detect and/or correctly handle write errors. Since error-free writing cannot be guaranteed with any and all memory cards, Roland should ensure that the song optimize routine checks for errors and validates written data on every write, and can fully recover from any errors that might occur.

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 30, 2009, 04:01:20 PM...it's important to backup before you do a song optimize, while the event table is still intact.

And that's what I didn't do. 

So I declare...

There's no point to optimizing. It's so unpredictable that you always need to prepare in advance for the likelihood that it will fail.  And when it does fail you'll need to restore immediately afterward.

There's so little to gain, and it's so easy to avoid.  I would recommend against ever using optimize, unless there's some bizarre situation where there is no other alternative. (Would you agree, 64G?)

Here's a scenario:

"My opus is taking up most of my SD card, and I can't master unless I can free up X MB."

Yeah.  Right.  My experience is that the Micro BR likes to have at least 6x the available space on the SD card than you'll need for the WAV file you think you'll be creating.  I doubt that optimizing could ever create enough space if your song is already that bloated with song data you actually need.  You could instead free up space by backing up the song, and erasing any v-tracks you won't be needing for your bounce or master.  You can only master or bounce up to four v-tracks a once--which means you can erase up to 28 v-tracks in this scenario.

If your song is so bloated that even four v-tracks are taking up the majority of your SD card, you've got a problem.  And your problem is called "The Boss Micro BR."

How about this scenario:

"A madman has taken my family hostage and is going to kill them one-by-one unless I optimize my song."

Okay. Maybe then.

I can't think of another scenario where there's no way around optimizing.  I'd like to know if anyone can.

If not, launched (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br/weird-optimizing-outcome/msg41498/#msg41498), and AndyR (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br/weird-optimizing-outcome/msg41473/#msg41473), have got it right.  And, as they say, it's easy enough to avoid ever needing to do it: One song at at time.

(I keep lots of little sketches on the Micro BR.  But when I settle down and start to produce a finished product, I put all those sketches on my computer for safekeeping.)

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End of take-away lesson.  What follows is more chatter on posts in this topic.

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Quote from: 64Guitars on July 30, 2009, 04:01:20 PMIf write errors occur during the song optimization process, the event table will very likely be corrupted and the song will play back scrambled.

That's not a symptom I've encountered. Nor have I heard of others encountering that problem. You? Although I did get a "radio static" (scrambled?) issue when trying to import a WAV file (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br-b65/%27vitameatavegamin%27-original-by-ted/msg41024/#msg41024).

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 30, 2009, 04:01:20 PMSince error-free writing cannot be guaranteed with any and all memory cards, Roland should ensure that the song optimize routine checks for errors and validates written data on every write, and can fully recover from any errors that might occur.

Well, maybe I'll pass that along to my new friends at Roland.

Allow me to quote an old Micro BR user who has learned from the School of Hard Knocks:

Quote from: Ted on July 28, 2009, 12:18:11 PMI won't ever optimize a song again unless I'm desperate and have no other options (at least until there's new firmware that explicitly fixes these problems).

I had so many problems with Drive busy.  Someone said optimize  I have done that and it made no difference one way or the other. But I think I did figure out my drive busy problem.  I always just recorded over the track.  Now If I goof up I erase the track and then start over on that track. I hven't had a drive busy since.  Unless I have to many songs I am working on  LOL

Quote from: Ted on July 30, 2009, 05:32:35 PMThere's no point to optimizing. It's so unpredictable that you always need to prepare in advance for the likelihood that it will fail.  And when it does fail you'll need to restore immediately afterward.

There's so little to gain, and it's so easy to avoid.  I would recommend against ever using optimize, unless there's some bizarre situation where there is no other alternative. (Would you agree, 64G?)

I think each user has to make his own risk assessment for each situation. If you've worked all day on a song that's really going well, then you should be backing up often anyway, regardless of whether you plan to optimize the song or not (especially if you've had card errors or song optimize problems before). Backups are easy to do and you can't afford to lose all that work. On the other hand, if you've been using the same memory card for a long time without ever seeing a card error and you've used song optimize several times before without any trouble, then the risk probably isn't very high, especially if the song you're working on isn't that important to you or you already have a fairly recent backup of it.

If you have one or more 1GB memory cards, you'll probably never have a need to optimize your songs. Just check the available space before you start a new song and make sure you have at least 150MB free. That should be enough to record a song and export it. If the song is going to be very complex or long, then allow for more free space. If you don't have enough free space for a new song, then it's time to backup the card and initialize it.

But some people might still be using the 128MB card that came with their Micro BR. In that case, song optimize might be necessary to complete a complex song. Of course, they'd be better off getting a 1GB card but, if they can't rush out and buy one right away and they're anxious to complete their song, then an optimize might be needed. As long as they backup first, I think it's safe to optimize.

In theory, a song with lots of edits, deletions, overwrites, etc. could start getting Drive Busy errors, making it impossible to continue. A song optimize might solve that problem (probably not, but it might be worth a try if you backup the card first).

QuoteYou could instead free up space by backing up the song, and erasing any v-tracks you won't be needing for your bounce or master.  You can only master or bounce up to four v-tracks a once--which means you can erase up to 28 v-tracks in this scenario.

I don't have time to check right now but I suspect that erasing v-tracks won't free up any memory card space. If it did, you wouldn't be able to undo the erase. That's why the song optimize function exists. The BRs support "non-destructive editing" which means that nothing ever gets erased or over-written. For example, suppose you record a 3-minute track, then realize that you made a mistake in the middle. So you rewind to just before the mistake and punch-in to record over it, then punch out. Well, it would be reasonable to assume that the corrected recording overwrote the section containing the mistake. But what really happens is that you're making a completely separate recording in an empty area of the memory card. The BR then updates the event table so that it points to the first section of your original recording, then the new recording, then back to the original recording at the point where you punched out. When you press Play, it plays that sequence of song data as described in the event table and you don't hear the mistake. But the original data with the mistake is still there. If you press Undo, the BR just updates the event table again so that it points to the original data instead of the new data. If you press Undo again, it acts as a "Redo" instead by updating the event table once more to point to the new data for that section of the song. The actual data is never changed; just the pointers to it in the event table are changed. I believe the same thing happens when you erase a v-track. It just updates the event table so that it no longer points to that data. But the data is still on the card taking up space. If you press Undo, it updates the event table to once again point to that data so that the "erased" v-track will again be included in the song. All of this dead data accumulates until you optimize the song. After you optimize, you can no longer undo any previous edits; only your new edits from that point forward.

Quote

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 30, 2009, 04:01:20 PMIf write errors occur during the song optimization process, the event table will very likely be corrupted and the song will play back scrambled.

That's not a symptom I've encountered. Nor have I heard of others encountering that problem. You? Although I did get a "radio static" (scrambled?) issue when trying to import a WAV file (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br-b65/%27vitameatavegamin%27-original-by-ted/msg41024/#msg41024).

I think you misunderstood what I meant by scrambled. I didn't mean that the sound is distorted in any way or has static. What I meant is that the various chunks of data get played back in the wrong order or at the wrong times. I believe that is what happened to you since you said that the tracks played backed out of sync by a couple of measures. Most likely, the event table was corrupted and no longer able to play back the song data chunks at the right times or in the right sequence on all tracks.


So, yes, I agree that you shouldn't use song optimize unless you need to. With a 1GB card, you should never need to optimize unless you start getting Drive Busy errors due to a lot of editing* (the resulting complexity of the event table slows down memory card access in a way that's somewhat like a badly-fragmented hard disk in your computer). With a 128MB card, you might need to optimize in order to complete your song.

* Actually, a song optimize probably won't solve the Drive Busy problem anyway since most of the event table complexity will probably still exist. The only sure way to solve this problem is to export each track of the song to a separate WAV file, then create a new song and import the WAV files back in to their individual tracks. That way, each track is stored as a single contiguous chunk of data instead of multiple small chunks, greatly simplifying the event table and speeding up card access.

On the (very) few occasions when the 'Drive Busy' message has reared it's ugly head, I've re-recorded to last offending track, or pressed 'undo', or re-corded a little snippet somewhere and it seems to fix the problem. It's a bit hit and miss, but I haven't had to export everything or lose anything for a very long time....

Quote from: 64Guitars on July 31, 2009, 12:47:26 AM

QuoteYou could instead free up space by backing up the song, and erasing any v-tracks you won't be needing for your bounce or master.  You can only master or bounce up to four v-tracks a once--which means you can erase up to 28 v-tracks in this scenario.

I don't have time to check right now but I suspect that erasing v-tracks won't free up any memory card space. If it did, you wouldn't be able to undo the erase. That's why the song optimize function exists. The BRs support "non-destructive editing" which means that nothing ever gets erased or over-written.

Okay, but after you erased all of v-tracks you don't need any more, you could free up space by... optimizing.  D'oh!

Quote from: Ted on August 13, 2009, 12:20:44 PMOkay, but after you erased all of v-tracks you don't need any more, you could free up space by... optimizing.  D'oh!

Well, I almost had the urge to optimize the other day because my card was getting full (Less than 45mb left - Scaaaary!!), but I got nervous - dumped off four songs and kept going instead... I am fully jinxed!

Quote from: Greeny on July 31, 2009, 06:10:34 AMOn the (very) few occasions when the 'Drive Busy' message has reared it's ugly head, I've re-recorded to last offending track, or pressed 'undo', or re-corded a little snippet somewhere and it seems to fix the problem. It's a bit hit and miss, but I haven't had to export everything or lose anything for a very long time....

This will get a laugh:

Because my brain overflows with astuteness and wisdom, when I get the "Drive Busy" error (Which I get a lot), I just hit the stop button and undo. The error comes again and I undo. The error comes again and I undo. The error comes again and I undo. I like shoveling shit uphill  :D  Then I initialize the card...

Quote from: launched on August 13, 2009, 02:41:25 PM

Quote from: Greeny on July 31, 2009, 06:10:34 AMOn the (very) few occasions when the 'Drive Busy' message has reared it's ugly head, I've re-recorded to last offending track, or pressed 'undo', or re-corded a little snippet somewhere and it seems to fix the problem. It's a bit hit and miss, but I haven't had to export everything or lose anything for a very long time....

This will get a laugh:

Because my brain overflows with astuteness and wisdom, when I get the "Drive Busy" error (Which I get a lot), I just hit the stop button and undo. The error comes again and I undo. The error comes again and I undo. The error comes again and I undo. I like shoveling shit uphill  :D  Then I initialize the card...

I will have to remember Greeny's method, which seems a little superstitious to me, but in those situations I'll try anything.

Your method seems a bit like Einstein's definition of insanity (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html).

Alright - I have a soft spot for the "If at first you don't succeed" thing!! :D

Quote from: launched on August 13, 2009, 06:48:44 PMAlright - I have a soft spot for the "If at first you don't succeed" thing!! :D

It's more like:

"I will NOT be defeated... and definitely not by a f*cking inanimate piece of plastic"

Sheer willpower, lol.

Of course, all of this is usually accompanied by me cursing the Micro as if it could listen and understand the severity of my threats, lol

Quote from: Greeny on August 14, 2009, 03:19:32 AM

Quote from: launched on August 13, 2009, 06:48:44 PMAlright - I have a soft spot for the "If at first you don't succeed" thing!! :D

It's more like:

"I will NOT be defeated... and definitely not by a f*cking inanimate piece of plastic"

Sheer willpower, lol.

Of course, all of this is usually accompanied by me cursing the Micro as if it could listen and understand the severity of my threats, lol

I'm beside myself right now!! ;D

It can hear you, just like a plant!! Speak soft tones into the onboard mic and your SD card will be fine... "Little Micro, I looooove you!!" :D

:D Nah, if he's like me, he won't speak tenderly or encouragingly to an inanimate object... I mean, it's just a "thing", isn't it?...

But when there's an issue, there'll be plenty of "you f**ing useless piece of sh*t..."

That's one of my favourites - it can be applied to computers, cookers, MBRs, crackly guitar leads, anything!

Of course, the MBR is itself quite intelligent... when addressed in this fashion, it might seem inanimate but, like all computers, it's thinking away quietly...

"I only did what you asked me to do, you utter plonker... you just wait, the next button you press better be the right one, cos there'll be no going back... I'm gonna do just exactly what it says in the guide, and then we'll see what you make of that, thank you very much, you sausage fingered lump of... let's just hope you've done a backup that I can read this time, haha...."

::)

Quote from: AndyR on August 14, 2009, 10:11:57 AM"I only did what you asked me to do, you utter plonker... you just wait, the next button you press better be the right one, cos there'll be no going back... I'm gonna do just exactly what it says in the guide, and then we'll see what you make of that, thank you very much, you sausage fingered lump of... let's just hope you've done a backup that I can read this time, haha...."

I always wondered what the Micro BR would display if it weren't limited to 14 characters.  Now I know.

Quote from: AndyR on August 14, 2009, 10:11:57 AMBut when there's an issue, there'll be plenty of "you f**ing useless piece of sh*t..."

:D  I believe a song was made about this! (https://songcrafters.org/community/micro-br-b65/3845/0/)

i always optomize a song before the final master, to stop that busy driver message coming up.

Quote from: oldrottenhead on March 03, 2010, 03:15:44 PMi always optomize a song before the final master, to stop that busy driver message coming up.

I think the lesson learned is: If you see a benefit to optimizing, then backup before you do it.  If everything goes well with the optimizing, you win!

back up back up back up did i say back up

In my experience the card read errors usually is created when recording/bouncing with low battery voltage. To check for possible card read errors, use the wave converter and copy ALL the tracks to the computer (backup of the *.BR* files won't reveal it). If any track fails to be read: DELETE them !!! THEN you can optimize !

Quote from: Geir on April 26, 2011, 07:52:00 AMIn my experience the card read errors usually is created when recording/bouncing with low battery voltage.

Recently I have abandoned using batteries on my mBR and have only used the wall-wart power adaptor for the last 6 months or so, and guess what , no card read errors or any funny business at all.  That low battery power thing is a cause for a lot of the card issues it would seem.  Change out your batteries, put in fresh ones before each session, and recharge the old ones, or use the power adaptor if practicle.  Thats my advice.

you gotta optimize it must be done gotta gotta gotta


aaaaaaaaaaaaa card read error

gotta optimize

had my microbr a wee while now and i usually optimize before i master, especially if i have a used up a lot of the cards memory.and i always replace battery before the get too low, optimizing is almost a habit and i rarely see card read error or driver busy messages.

except when i forget to optimize. then there is usually drink involved.

Or you can just get the br-80. I no longer have this problem.  :-*

where did ye get the pic o ma auld da?

Quote from: oldrottenhead on May 09, 2012, 05:49:33 PMwhere did ye get the pic o ma auld da?

Connections!! And i got his ashes too! :D

ya rocket! lmfao.

I think I finally figured out why/when I get the drive busy on the br. It seems to only happen when I'm doing an excessive amount of punching in, mostly on my bass tracks. If I'm having trouble with a part every now and then I just erase the track I've been punching in on a lot and start that track from scratch. Seems to work. I optimize somewhat often also. I upgraded my firmware on my tascam 004 and that solved the i/f error on that machine.  Error's suck!

errors don't suck, you need to make em to learn. if i am not mistaken. hic burp fart. i better get to my bed.



coming honey?

coming...

a bloody punctuation errors that ? should have been an ! lmao. ooh my head hertz.

(http://www.comicartcollective.com/artImages/68294390-3048-77F0-11CC0FB7AB96A24F.jpg)