Songcrafters.org

On The Media:

How AI and Algorithms Are Transforming Music (https://podcastaddict.com/on-the-media/episode/188997481)

The best segment is the last one:

Quote[28:39] Former OTM producer, and current composer and sound designer, Mark Henry Phillips, on how AI music generators could fundamentally upend the industry for good.

Phillips discusses how good AI music generation is, and how he uses it to revive his own unfinished ideas. And I have a lot of unfinished ideas.

to each their own but I don't ever plan to use it... for me there is too much joy in the actual instruments and the journey of "writing"....

but I realize most of modern music isn't very much human at all and to be fair I used alot of "AI" in my productions...
I suppose say auto tune is a sort of AI... so I guess I am sort of a cyborg? 

i agree with Stephen. much more joy to be found in writing and creating music with a human brain and your own hands than relying on some flashy computer to do it for you.

Quote from: StephenM on January 01, 2025, 07:44:43 PMI don't ever plan to use it.

Quote from: Pru on January 02, 2025, 01:24:16 PMi agree with Stephen.

I somehow suspect that neither of you listened to the podcast (particularly the segment by Mark Henry Phillips that begins at about 28:39) and you just gave your general takes on AI. That's okay.

I found Phillips' take really interesting. I'm not really a gung-ho AI guy. I approach it with the same way I approach any new complex gadget: looking for how to break it, and make it do unexpectedly interesting things. I'm more resistant to using AI in music in particular. But Phillips made me rethink my resistance – the idea that using AI is stealing or cheating (which it definitely can be).

Phillips has begun incorporating AI music generation into his workflow, and uses it as a partner and a muse. I can definitely identify with that. Back in the ancient days of search engines, I used to use bad search results as a way of rattling ideas loose from my own brain. This podcast has offered me a way to do something similar with AI: Not doing the work for me, but using it as a sounding board when I'm stuck.

Quote from: Mark Henry PhillipsAs murky as it is, it's the really appealing way to bring AI into my workflow. It'd be like having the best music writing partner ever. They're always awake. They're fast, enthusiastic and good.

...

It's easy to come up with the germ of something cool, but it's so hard to get it from 70% done to 100% finished, but now I have no excuse for leaving a song unfinished. I've never been more unsure of my future as a professional musician but as much as it pains me to say this, I haven't been so excited to make music in a long, long time. I have so many songs, so many projects that I feel like I can finish now, and that's really exciting.

...

This might be the last year I make money as a musician. If that's the case, it'll free up time for me to finish the half dozen unfinished albums I have. I'm excited to actually do them, using AI as a writing partner. Yes, that brings up all sorts of moral and legal issues, so I probably won't release them. I'll just make them because it's fun. Isn't that what making music is all about?

It's true that for the past 3 or 4 years, we've been served up AI "à toutes les sauces".
Not a minute goes by on a TV program without us being given new applications... a recent example heard in a news report this morning:: AI has revolutionized academic writing, offering powerful tools for creating and refining thesis statements
Teachers have even created AI content detection tools that use machine learning and natural language processing to determine whether a human created the content.

Here are the best AI detection tools
https://kinsta.com/fr/blog/detection-contenu-ia/

Getting back to music, I've updated BAND IN A BOX and it offers two AI-assisted composition tools, which I haven't tested yet
- a stem separator, which lets you separate the tracks that make up a song (at 8:20 in the video)
- a song-writing function (at 10:20 in the video)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAMF5l8YzOM



 

The kids I work with use ChatGPT to write lyrics for songs, but they are pretty crap. Writing very lazy lyrics , you know the moon in June trite stuff. I really hate rhyming couplets which I avoid like the plague. One of the kids even sang his song into an online app that turned it into a complete song with music and even a different voice. It sounded like everything you hear on pop radio..............,.. dire.
I'm sure in a few years time it will outdo cohen and Dylan.

I got a new practice amp for Xmas a spark 2 which uses AI to generate guitar tones. Though at present it seems to be just a search engine for tones created by users of the amp and shared to a database. The app also has a thing where you can play and it creates a drums and bass backing track to go with your playing. Not tried it yet but it's not something I have an urge to use either.
The app is currently in beta stage so who knows what it will be able to do.
I have always used preset virtual effects rather than pedals but this app is now teaching me about pedals and the chains in setting them up. Noise gate has been a revelation as my noisy fender can be tamed a bit. All the other stuff is still a mystery to me.

Quote from: Ted on January 03, 2025, 09:50:48 AM

Quote from: StephenM on January 01, 2025, 07:44:43 PMI don't ever plan to use it.

Quote from: Pru on January 02, 2025, 01:24:16 PMi agree with Stephen.

I somehow suspect that neither of you listened to the podcast (particularly the segment by Mark Henry Phillips that begins at about 28:39) and you just gave your general takes on AI. That's okay.

I found Phillips' take really interesting. I'm not really a gung-ho AI guy. I approach it with the same way I approach any new complex gadget: looking for how to break it, and make it do unexpectedly interesting things. I'm more resistant to using AI in music in particular. But Phillips made me rethink my resistance – the idea that using AI is stealing or cheating (which it definitely can be).

Phillips has begun incorporating AI music generation into his workflow, and uses it as a partner and a muse. I can definitely identify with that. Back in the ancient days of search engines, I used to use bad search results as a way of rattling ideas loose from my own brain. This podcast has offered me a way to do something similar with AI: Not doing the work for me, but using it as a sounding board when I'm stuck.

Quote from: Mark Henry PhillipsAs murky as it is, it's the really appealing way to bring AI into my workflow. It'd be like having the best music writing partner ever. They're always awake. They're fast, enthusiastic and good.

...

It's easy to come up with the germ of something cool, but it's so hard to get it from 70% done to 100% finished, but now I have no excuse for leaving a song unfinished. I've never been more unsure of my future as a professional musician but as much as it pains me to say this, I haven't been so excited to make music in a long, long time. I have so many songs, so many projects that I feel like I can finish now, and that's really exciting.

...

This might be the last year I make money as a musician. If that's the case, it'll free up time for me to finish the half dozen unfinished albums I have. I'm excited to actually do them, using AI as a writing partner. Yes, that brings up all sorts of moral and legal issues, so I probably won't release them. I'll just make them because it's fun. Isn't that what making music is all about?

in my case you are right and I will listen to this Ted because i learned a while back what you offer is always worth checking out.  thanks

Quote from: Oldrottenhead on January 04, 2025, 06:30:32 AMThe kids I work with use ChatGPT to write lyrics for songs, but they are pretty crap. Writing very lazy lyrics

...

The app also has a thing where you can play and it creates a drums and bass backing track to go with your playing. Not tried it yet but it's not something I have an urge to use either.

This is what I think some people think of when they have knee-jerk reactions against AI: The shitty, lazy, AI-does-everything-because-I'm-creatively-bankrupt uses of AI. I remember when I first discovered ChatGPT and I gave it some prompts to generate lyrics. They weren't bad. They were about as good as the mediocre lyrics written by a lot of mediocre songwriters. In fact, they were usable, if you consider how many songs are out there with mediocre lyrics. But they weren't good or great. I wouldn't use them. I'd rather write mediocre lyrics all by myself, thank you. I never tried using it again for that purpose.

I use ChatGPT a lot – but not for music. I use it to generate programming code that I'm not knowledgeable enough to create. I use it to generate first drafts of tedious things I need to write. It's very much a "garbage in: garbage out" proposition. It's not like using a search engine. It's called chat for a reason. The back-and-forth with it – which can be phenomenally frustrating – is what moves the task forward. If I'm satisfied with the outcome, it's usually because I've put a lot of my own time and thought into the conversation. (And I sometimes wonder if I've ended up putting more effort into the task than had I just done it without ChatGPT.)

So what intrigues me about this particular podcast episode is that Mark Henry Phillips is using an AI music system in similar ways that I use ChatGPT – seeding it with his own ideas, arguing with it, and making creative decisions based on what the system spits back.

This is very different from prompting the system to write a song about something, and then taking what it shits out as the final product.

I just listened to the podcast and get where the guy is coming from. Just not for me.

I finished listening...so much to think about...at the end of the day if someone is moved to use AI to make them excited about music cool..
And if a person wants to and garners a following, groovy!
I like hearing about your adventures Ted...whether it be in Madagascar or using AI to help you code! 
Spotify i still don't have... i do like audio though..

Interesting stuff, but i'm sure the whole Ai thing is so wide ranging that it will be part of so many things (and already is) without people even noticing. Meaning that at this point in time saying "i won't use Ai" is comparable to saying "i won't be using electricity".

Perhaps it's the word Ai that's scaring people so much.

Even if we zoom down to Vst plugins. The stuff they're doing behind the scenes is bordering on Ai and some of them actually do use Ai as such. Making it faster, easier to make changes. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that someone / something is doing all the work for you, or devaluing your art.

I tend to agree with Zoltan, before it was called AI, it was probably already being used as a tool, without knowing it, as Zoltan says about certain VST plug-ins
...just as Mr Jourdan, in Molière's Le bourgeois gentilhomme, wrote prose without knowing it :)

I've tried to translate for you the text from "Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme".

QuoteFrom Le Bourgeois gentilhomme by Molière, scene VI, act II.

Monsieur Jourdain

[...] I must confide in you. I'm in love with someone of great quality, and I'd like you to help me write her something in a little bill that I want to drop at her feet.

The Master of Philosophy

Very well.

Monsieur Jourdain

That will be gallant, yes.

The Master of Philosophy

I'm sure it will. Are these verses you want to write him?

Monsieur Jourdain

No, no; no verses.

The Master of Philosophy

You only want prose?

Mr Jourdain

No, I don't want prose or verse.

The Master of Philosophy

It has to be one or the other.

Mr Jourdain

Why is that?

The Master of Philosophy

For the reason, sir, that there is only prose or verse to express oneself.

Monsieur Jourdain

Is there only prose or verse?

The Master of Philosophy

No, sir. Everything that isn't prose is verse, and everything that isn't verse is prose.

Monsieur Jourdain

And since we're talking, what on earth is that?

The Master of Philosophy

Prose.

Monsieur Jourdain

What! when I say: "Nicole, bring me my slippers, and give me my nightcap", is that prose?

The Master of Philosophy

Yes, Monsieur

Monsieur Jourdain

By my troth, I've been saying prose for over forty years without knowing anything about it, and I'm most obliged to you for teaching me that.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Quote from: Zoltan on January 05, 2025, 03:06:01 AMMeaning that at this point in time saying "i won't use Ai" is comparable to saying "i won't be using electricity".

Bingo. Or maybe a better analogy is people who say "I don't use the Internet, I only use email and Facebook."

Quote from: Pru on January 02, 2025, 01:24:16 PMi agree with Stephen. much more joy to be found in writing and creating music with a human brain and your own hands than relying on some flashy computer to do it for you.

Spot on IMHO. The creative process is where the pleasure (and pain) is - at least for me.

I don't have a problem with ai creating effects , tones etc. I don't even have a problem with the way the composer on the podcast uses it as a co author or a soundboard to come up with new ideas.
My problem is when it is used to write or compose complete works and then someone claiming it as their own work. There's the rub.

Quote from: Oldrottenhead on January 06, 2025, 04:33:16 AMMy problem is when it is used to write or compose complete works and then someone claiming it as their own work. There's the rub.

Correct. The lazier you are with AI, the more ethically murky it gets. AI is trained on text, sound, video, and audio from all over the internet. When someone uses AI to generate a complete work the easy way (Create a song in the style Cracker about rechargeable batteries) it will definitely create something totally new, but from 1000 stolen parts.

But as Zoltan suggested, being firmly anti-AI is an untenable position if you continue to use modern music tech. Using AI doesn't mean you surrendered the creative process over to a robot.

Heck, I still use the Micro BR. I probably use less AI in my music creation than some "anti AI" composers here who use things such as amp modeling and profiling, drum track generators, Auto-Tune and vocal processing, backing track generators (e.g. BIAB), smartphone-controlled effects, virtual instruments, noise reduction and restoration, MIDI controllers with smart features, etc.

Quote from: Oldrottenhead on January 06, 2025, 04:33:16 AMI don't have a problem with ai creating effects , tones etc. I don't even have a problem with the way the composer on the podcast uses it as a co author or a soundboard to come up with new ideas.
My problem is when it is used to write or compose complete works and then someone claiming it as their own work. There's the rub.

great point here.

I'm sure I read somewhere that when the pianoforte was invented folk said it was cheating 😜

QuoteI'm sure I read somewhere that when the pianoforte was invented folk said it was cheating 😜

It reminds me of the episode when Dylan at the Newport 65 Folk Festival went electric under the wrath and booing of folk purists.

https://www.rollingstone.fr/un-jour-une-histoire-25-07-65-bob-dylan-au-newport-folk-festival/

So this whole Ai thing is certainly happening in all areas of life as far as it looks. Seems like we are powerless to stop it. I feel like we are part of the last generation to have one foot in the old world.

Sure Ai will bring some wonderful things but it's going to be so invasive beyond probably what most people realise, so for me I am going to try to stay off grid as far as Ai is concerned as much as possible. The human input is going to become more and more precious.

I think we can stumble along and make it to the other side like that if we choose but I don't think the next generation can and that is sad to me.

Quote from: Mike_S on January 13, 2025, 04:08:43 AMI am going to try to stay off grid as far as Ai is concerned as much as possible.

Pssst... Should we tell him about all the AI in Garageband or not?  ;)

Quote from: Mike_S on January 13, 2025, 04:08:43 AMSo this whole Ai thing is certainly happening in all areas of life as far as it looks. Seems like we are powerless to stop it. I feel like we are part of the last generation to have one foot in the old world.

Sure Ai will bring some wonderful things but it's going to be so invasive beyond probably what most people realise, so for me I am going to try to stay off grid as far as Ai is concerned as much as possible. The human input is going to become more and more precious.

I think we can stumble along and make it to the other side like that if we choose but I don't think the next generation can and that is sad to me.

yeah Mike,
that wrote movies about this years ago... great post Ted.

AI-generated images are multiplying at breakneck speed! ...one wonders just how far they'll go One can either love or hate the process, but in any case, it's quite mind-blowing and breathtaking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyDwcE6qW1M


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIdH157zgs