Songcrafters.org

I've been testing a live performance & recording rig (pic below) using only software FX (plugins) running on an inexpensive laptop. I'm using a Tascam USB interface, Reaper DAW software, and powered PA monitors (equipment list below).

Update: I simultaneously recorded/mixed 15 tracks, most running FX plugins, with acceptably low latency for live performance. I maybe hear very occasional minor noise glitches, but it could be because I was also using a new wireless guitar interface.

As a test, I recorded a vocal (CAD D90 mic) + electric guitar, along with a backing track ("Song Sung Blue"; Neil Diamond), while also recording a bunch of other "empty" tracks (but with plugins running, to simulate recording/mixing a whole band). I did not use my "favorite" plugins since I haven't transferred them to this laptop yet, so I used free ones.

- 4 vocal tracks (each with Mixbox channel strip plugin (EQ + compressor) + Digital reverb)
- 4 additional mic tracks (could be for Drums?) (Mixbox channel strip on each)
- 2 Guitar tracks (each with Amplitube 5 Clean Tube Amp plugin, with spring reverb)
- 1 Bass track (with Amplitube 5 Solid State Bass Amp plugin)
- 2 stereo keyboard tracks (4 tracks, no plugins needed)
(also running Mixbox channel strip + limiter plugins on the master track while recording)
 


Equipment:

Tascam 16x08 USB recording interface - obtained for $300
- Record simultaneously 8 mic + 8 line inputs, 24 bit, 96 kHz
- Includes 2 "hi z" inputs for electric guitar + bass
- Has onboard digital EQ and compressor on each channel

Acer Swift 3 Intel Evo Thin & Light Laptop - obtained for $430
- 13.5" 2256 x 1504 IPS screen, Intel Core i5-1135G7, 8GB LPDDR4X, 512GB NVMe SSD, Win10

JBL612 PA monitors, Two - obtained for $200 each (clearout sale!)
- 1000 Watt, 12" speakers (can be quiet, or LOUD!)

wow, I love the way your mind works... a bit techie, scientist, engineer, musician, sound guy all rolled into one..

Zoltan is introducing me to plug ins a little... I haven't as yet tried any.  I know sound people who do all the effects through plug ins on the computers chained into the PA.... somewhat different than what you are doing in that they still use a mixing board, which would be in place of the interface I guess.. all this sort of makes my head explode as it is more learning but in the end that isn't a bad thing... to continue learning is good for the mind and the body.
will look forward to reading more about this.

Quote from: StephenM on October 01, 2022, 06:40:58 AMwow, I love the way your mind works... a bit techie, scientist, engineer, musician, sound guy all rolled into one..

Zoltan is introducing me to plug ins a little... I haven't as yet tried any.  I know sound people who do all the effects through plug ins on the computers chained into the PA.... somewhat different than what you are doing in that they still use a mixing board, which would be in place of the interface I guess.. all this sort of makes my head explode as it is more learning but in the end that isn't a bad thing... to continue learning is good for the mind and the body.
will look forward to reading more about this.

Hey, thanks for your interest. I updated my original post with a sample recording, where I sang and played guitar along with my backing track, while also simultaneously recording a total of 15 tracks with FX plugins applied on most tracks. So this setup can do mixing, EQ + compressor on all tracks, reverb on 4 vocals, 2 simulated guitar amps (with spring reverb), 1 simulated bass amp, and EQ + compressor + limiter on the master track, all done with software plugins running on a $430 laptop! All 15 tracks are recorded unprocessed, so one can do remix/mastering. So it's basically a live performance and studio recording rig wrapped together consisting of just USB interface, laptop, and PA speakers.

Update: This recording sounds not too good, but it is almost certainly due to the speakers being in an "untreated" small room, where there are lots of reflections off the walls. The mics used to record are also not too great probably. In my next post below I recorded each PA speaker separately with a mic placed very close (~1 foot away) using a much better mic (AT-4040) and it sounds much better. 

Here is what the recorded song sounds like when played back through the PA speakers and is recorded by a Zoom H2n digital recorder (xy stereo mics mode) placed in the middle of the room. It isn't bad, but I think the recording doesn't sound as good as what my ears hear (and there is some background static noise that I don't think I hear live - maybe its from the recorder itself). I did do a little EQ to this recording to try to make it sound better, but the main issues are probably: (1) there is some loss of quality from using a recorder that has relatively cheap small condenser mics; (2) I have no experience properly adjusting the mix and EQ for PA speakers; (3) the speakers are in a relatively small room, so there are reflections off walls/surfaces that make it sound "boxy"(?). Still not sound too bad considering the chain of events: guitar and mic -> preamps and digitized by USB interface -> mixed in DAW -> converted to analog -> PA amp and speaker -> thru the air and bouncing off walls -> recorder mics -> preamp in recorder and digitized -> EQ + limiter added in DAW -> converted to MP3 -> converted back to analog when file is played -> amplified and played through speaker or headphone -> ear -> brain... :D

Doug, you should post this to the latest juke box!  It sounds great.  Perhaps as good as any of your recording I have heard.  I say this hesitantly.  First off I do have a great ear for music and alot of detail and focus BUT I also have a bit, a good bit, of hearing loss at certain frequencies.  So I say all this with caution (not the first sentence however)!

I really love your sense of trial and error techie scientist stuff... on a much smaller level I do similar things, but not nearly as technical... it's fun to read about some of the things done by engineers and producers on albums to bring success.  The problem is most of the ones we hear about are only the famous ones...it was interesting to read about Dark Side of the Moon and how Alan Parsons got those clock sounds..

I have not yet listened to the recording off the Zoom yet...will do soon though...

I love everything about your recording here and the bass especially sounds great.

Here is what it sounds like if I record the PA speakers playing my recorded song using a good mic (AT-4040 large condenser) placed very close to each PA speaker (~1 foot away).  It sounds great I think!  Much better than in the recording in the post above where I place a cheaper stereo mic in the middle of the room (where it is probably picking up lots of reflections from the walls). This recording "proves" to me that my setup and equipment (see original post) works pretty well. Sound will be strongly affected by the room and speaker placement. Professional concert halls are designed and/or have treatments to minimize sound reflections to optimize this.  In a home room, one could hang anti-sound-reflection panels on the walls. But it may look too ugly in my living room.  And to my own ears the sound in the middle of the room sounds way better than it seems from the recording in the post further above.

Quote from: des0free on October 01, 2022, 11:16:35 PMUpdate: This recording sounds not too good, but it is almost certainly due to the speakers being in an "untreated" small room, where there are lots of reflections off the walls. The mics used to record are also not too great probably. In my next post below I recorded each PA speaker separately with a mic placed very close (~1 foot away) using a much better mic (AT-4040) and it sounds much better. 

Here is what the recorded song sounds like when played back through the PA speakers and is recorded by a Zoom H2n digital recorder (xy stereo mics mode) placed in the middle of the room. It isn't bad, but I think the recording doesn't sound as good as what my ears hear (and there is some background static noise that I don't think I hear live - maybe its from the recorder itself). I did do a little EQ to this recording to try to make it sound better, but the main issues are probably: (1) there is some loss of quality from using a recorder that has relatively cheap small condenser mics; (2) I have no experience properly adjusting the mix and EQ for PA speakers; (3) the speakers are in a relatively small room, so there are reflections off walls/surfaces that make it sound "boxy"(?). Still not sound too bad considering the chain of events: guitar and mic -> preamps and digitized by USB interface -> mixed in DAW -> converted to analog -> PA amp and speaker -> thru the air and bouncing off walls -> recorder mics -> preamp in recorder and digitized -> EQ + limiter added in DAW -> converted to MP3 -> converted back to analog when file is played -> amplified and played through speaker or headphone -> ear -> brain... :D

while this is not likely a recording you would keep it isn't that bad!  That little H2N does pretty good.

Doug, that one with the AT-4040 sounds really good, and the bass is bigger than the first one I think?  This is pretty darn good... funny thing is when I go to open mics or go hear local bands when I can I like to move around the room until I find the optimum sound for my ears...lol.. and this proves that actually is a thing.  You are right, room acoustics matter in recording and that is not a thing I have worried much about yet.  I generally have an area I record vocals with the condenser mic.  I can tell a big difference when I go somewhere else to record them.  Mostly with my instruments I DI so room acoustics don't matter.  I have been experimenting a bit with my bass recording off a speaker lately however.  Also I do record my acoustic guitar quite a bit with just an open mic

I have now done another "live" performance using this Rig, of the Beach Boys song Sloop John B:
https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=32997.0

This is super interesting. I would not have expected a low-priced laptop to be able to run too many live tracks. (Although, for me $450 is a mid-priced laptop.) Do you have a second set of ears you trust to help with this setup. It seems like that would be really useful. When you record the live band, how many inputs do you expect to have at the same time?

It's also interesting because it is in many ways the opposite of what I am working on right now. I'm trying to record alone (not with a band), into my Micro BR (not a computer), doing as much as possible with pedals (not plugins or patches). But the goal is kind of the same: To have a quick and low-risk setup that works, without a lot of fiddling every time. For you: performing/recording live. For me: Noodling and sketching.

Quote from: Ted on October 04, 2022, 12:04:07 AMThis is super interesting. I would not have expected a low-priced laptop to be able to run too many live tracks. (Although, for me $450 is a mid-priced laptop.) Do you have a second set of ears you trust to help with this setup. It seems like that would be really useful. When you record the live band, how many inputs do you expect to have at the same time?

It's also interesting because it is in many ways the opposite of what I am working on right now. I'm trying to record alone (not with a band), into my Micro BR (not a computer), doing as much as possible with pedals (not plugins or patches). But the goal is kind of the same: To have a quick and low-risk setup that works, without a lot of fiddling every time. For you: performing/recording live. For me: Noodling and sketching.

My wife and kids listen, so I get some feedback.  But I also posted a recording above where I close mic the PA speakers (post #5), or put a stereo zoom recorder in the room (post #3 - which affected by the sub-optimal room acoustics).

For the present, I'll mostly just be recording myself (guitar + vocal) playing to my backing tracks, but I tried out the 16 input interface for curiosity and future flexibility (and I just like fooling with equipment/software...) - but maybe I can get my kids to play with me - I could hook up 2 keyboards (each stereo) and 2 more mics, and that would be a total of 8 inputs. The other thing is I could just leave a bunch of different mics, guitars, bass, and keyboards plugged in at all times, each with desired plugins applied, so every instrument is "ready to go". With my old two-channel interface I was always fussing around unplugging and plugging the instruments, and changing plugins. Also, although I was using a $2000 laptop (four year old Dell XPS 15 with apparently defective audio drivers...), was always glitching the recordings.

Regarding the low latency recording, I did some tweaking (of Windows 10) to improve it. I will make a separate post about that

On the other hand, I do think we humans tend to spend too much time hunched over computers like zombies, especially since many jobs involve that. In that sense, I see an argument for using a dedicated recording interface - I sometimes also enjoy using my Zoom R24 (which has 8 simultaneous inputs). But the infinite diversity of plugins (and many are available for free) also fascinates me.


 

 
 

Here are some of the tweaks I did to Windows 10 (and in Reaper DAW) to try to reduce latency for real time mixing and recording  of many channels with many FX plugins applied:

- I picked a laptop that has a SSD and scored high (for the price) in CPU speed tests (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/)

- I dedicated the laptop for live mixing/recording, so uninstalled almost all the software (except essential drivers/updates); especially delete all unnecessary junk that runs in the background (venders like Acer usually have hardware update and "health check" and Acer service software, etc. - none of it is necessary since windows already does updates). You can hit "Ctrl-Alt-Del" to bring up Task Manager to see what is running in the background.

- I only installed the audio interface (ASIO) driver for my Tascam interface, and Reaper DAW

- Turn off all unnecessary windows features (e.g., One Drive, Backup/File history, Cortana, Disk indexing, Game mode, Notifications, Background Apps, etc.), and turn as much as possible off in "Privacy settings"

- Set "Power settings" to "highest performance"

- Set "Adjust the appearance and performance of Windows", "visual effects" to "Adjust for best performance"

- Put laptop in "Airplane mode" (no Wifi, no bluetooth), and turn off all "Virus and threat protection settings" while recording.  I think these are a big one!  (this has to be redone if the computer is restarted)

- With Reaper (the DAW software) running, go to task manager, details tab, right click Reaper, and set priority to "Real time" (this has to be redone if the software or computer is restarted)

- In Reaper and/or the ASIO driver setting software set the audio sampling rate as high as possible and buffer size as low as possible (but if glitching occurs you'll need to increase buffer size and/or decrease sampling rate).  e.g. I'm using (set from within Reaper settings): 96 kHz and 128 sample buffer with my audio interface, and 64 sample may work too.

- If certain VST plugins are power hogs and seem to cause lag or glitching try replacing them with other plugins that do an equivalent function.     

- Record from as few inputs as you need to record from. (e.g. I tested that my interface can record all 16 channels at once, but if I'm just playing guitar and singing, I set the audio interface in settings to only use two channels "in".