just did another gig where I couldn't hear myself. (I don't have a PA and some of the guys don't bring monitors for the small gigs)
Apparently it was fine at the front but I could have been more inspired and less error prone if I could get monitored clearly.
This is very common so I thought maybe I could get my own monitor mix as part of my set up?
Any hints or tips or advice?
My set up is:
1. guitar into 3 pedals then to the PA.
2. Also I'm using the Micro as a backer tracker. (Ok it's sort of Karaoke but it's all my recordings so I rationalize at least it's original)
This also goes to the PA.
3.Then there's the mic which is the final part of my mix.
4. Then there is any other artist playing with me. (we often do a partner/song circle duo set where we take turns and add to each other.)
I'd like control over the mix I get, regardless of what goes out the front.
I have a couple of amps that I thought might work for a thru signal ? (A Roland Cube and a Deluxe Reverb.)
The deluxe has a plug for an external speaker that might work but the cube is nice and small.
The cube has a "Record out/headphones" but it cuts out the amp.
Neither amp is nice for the backer track.
I'm thinking I need some sort of small mixer? Or do I need an amp and quality monitor too?
Is it unreal to ask that I get some control over my monitor mix? (Am I a control freak?)
Can I get them to send back my signals from the head to a mixer I buy and control?
Surely this is common?
I obviously don't know enough about PA systems.
Does the PA have auxiliary outputs? Most Mixers have two - A pre-fader and a post-fader. Those can both be used to remix the monitors. The better mixers have at least four. If the PA has no multi-output capabilities, you would have to use a separate mixer because monitor outputs that have the same mix as the general PA are not overly helpful. Then you can increase the levels of your instrument and the vocals if you sing - You also have the opportunity to turn the bass way down to give more clarity.
I've found that having a monitor in front of me that has the house mix is worse than having no monitor at all. I've done both. Another thing is I can hear my instrument fine usually because I'm standing in front of it - I usually put mostly vocals up in the mix with a little bit of guitar as I play bass, maybe the other way around if I played a different instrument
Edit:
I'm assuming the monitors you would use are self powered, such as your Roland Cube. I've used a Behringer Eurolive F1220A and a Mackie SRM350. The Mackies are obviously better quality, but the Behringer puts out more sound.
The problem is every venue has a different PA.
The 12 pc band I was in had their own PA but had different sound guys for each gig!! I had to quit for this lack of control over monitors.
Yes it's important that it sounds good out there, but I need to make my own mix for my monitor.
Wouldn't the Aux out just be a mono or stereo mix of the whole thing?
I agree simply getting the house mix does not help. I don't need to hear the horns or the drums or bass in my monitor mix Lol
I'm needing to get several, selected channels to my mixer, not the whole mix.
How does one control individual channels in the individual monitors. There is usually a separate monitor mixer no?
I'm beginning to get the idea this is not practical but still hoping.
I thought maybe I could give the house my signals parallel to my mix. I don't know the terminology but sort of a "thru" option for the 3 signals? Where they could do their thing to the FOH and I could do mine to my monitor?
Yes, those outputs I described will allow you to select what channels you want in the mix. Considering that you don't know what you are going to get for a PA/Board setup at the house level, I would recommend bringing a mixer and running everything through that. Then you would have at minimum 3 outputs - Main outs, Aux1 and Aux2, one of them being pre-fader. Monitor outputs will not help you, even though they are labeled so. Pre-Fader will include the fader levels but also have a separate output for each channel. Post-Fader will have just the separate outputs for each channel.
The thing is, if the PA has all those inputs available to accept all the mics and line out connections, there is a good chance it has multiple Aux outs.
But if you want to be in control of the mix locally at the stage and be able to real time tweak the monitor mix, get a little rackmount mixer like an Alesis Multimix 12R or it's equivalent. Cheap, fits in a tidy rack and gives you two separate monitor mixes. It will also facilitate the use of your MBR as I hook up an mp3 player for the break music. I wouldn't recommend doing much more than that until you can figure that setup out, which shouldn't give you too much trouble - Small money to get what you need.
That sounds perfect. Thanks!.
The unit looks a little big at first glance but I now know what I'm looking for.
Would this sort of thing do the trick? I'm trying to keep it all portable.
http://www.alesis.com/multimix6fx
Again Thanks.
I checked it out and that looks like a good little mixer, lots of inputs for such a small size. I did notice that it has only one aux send, which would allow for one separate monitor mix. That might be ok if everyone is happy with it. You will be able to get all the sounds you don't want out which might make everyone happy and no need for another monitor mix.
Bit pissed at the moment. I think I have somethiong to contribute here, but I can't quite formulate it.....
I'll try again in the morning.
I have been here.. I think..
Quote from: The Despicable Flash Harry on June 18, 2011, 04:50:27 PMBit pissed at the moment. I think I have somethiong to contribute here, but I can't quite formulate it.....
I'll try again in the morning.
I have been here.. I think..
Ha, we all have - It's probably the biggest problem I've faced except for the balls needed to stand in front of a crowd! I look forward to your suggestions.
Hi Glenn, how are you doing man, I don't really have anything to add to this discussion, but I just wanted to say Hi.
I was about to say something about the mixer at Mike's party ... and that me and T didn't quite hear ourself ... hic ... and that I was at the mixing desk ... hic ... and .... mixer ... hic .... you should always hear your voice .... or some voice .... what ... hic ... yeah ... you can fake guitar ... but you cant fake the voice ,......
and you can't fake being drunk..........let me get a beer and try to catch up to you and Flash
I'm already there, but I can type and drink with the best of them ;D
Geir, right on regarding the vox output. It seems that I almost prefer a monitor that has only vocals on it with a little bit of guitar. The guitarist likes to hear my bass a little more so that's the only reason why we have two separate monitor mixes. We put our vocals up even with each other in both mixes.
Also, I think doing the PA mix first and then monitor works best because even if you can hear yourself clear in the monitor it might not be making it to the crowd.
ok, I better get two beers then........
Quote from: Bluesberry on June 18, 2011, 05:26:50 PMok, I better get two beers then........
Is that all?? I like you better with about four in you!
hahahaha, ok, ok, I'm in, lets go then..........sorry for hijacking your thread Glenn with this kind of talk.........
Dave, you are a gem! We all love you wherever you go here!
Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 18, 2011, 05:02:01 PMI was about to say something about the mixer at Mike's party
Canada Dry?
I thought you were drinking wine.
wasna drunkin befor playin or mixin... jist aft ....
bloody hell ay spell like a drunken scot .....
hic..
Quote from: the lovely Geir on June 18, 2011, 05:02:01 PMyou should always hear your voice .... or some voice .... what ... hic ... yeah ... you can fake guitar ... but you cant fake the voice ,......
It's when you hear voices in your head instead of the monitor then theres problems......DR...........Dr
Quote from: thetworegs on June 18, 2011, 05:50:07 PMQuote from: the lovely Geir on June 18, 2011, 05:02:01 PMyou should always hear your voice .... or some voice .... what ... hic ... yeah ... you can fake guitar ... but you cant fake the voice ,......
It's when you hear voices in your head instead of the monitor then theres problems......DR...........Dr
rofl ... yeah ... i had that coming didnI
Not sure if this applies to your situation, Glenn, and it's probably too expensive anyway. But I like the idea of the personal monitoring systems that I've heard about (just briefly) in music tech news items. They let each band member have his own personal mix instead of feeding the same mix to all band members. Roland has one, as well as a few other companies. Behringer's is probably the most affordable, though I don't think it's available yet.
http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100024 (http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100024)
http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/new-personal-monitor-mixing-system-behringer (http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/new-personal-monitor-mixing-system-behringer)
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P16-M.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P16-M.aspx)
I remember looking into a monitoring system that was similar. It had a main module with a multiport hub on it that you connected a personal mixer with a cat5 cable - It was too expensive for me but it looked like the end all be all, though. Wish I could remember the name of it.
Quote from: Bluesberry on June 18, 2011, 04:55:17 PMHi Glenn, how are you doing man, I don't really have anything to add to this discussion, but I just wanted to say Hi.
Hey Dave. How's the other side? The weather's turned out so nice here in the West we are rioting in the streets.
Thanks for the ideas guys. I see I'm not the only one with this problem. My near future obviously has some kind of multi use mixer involved. I'm sure the sound guys will be insulted tho.
Sober.
And awake.
I normally use two channels of foldback for monitoring. I have floor wedges (up to 4) for the vocalists who need to hear mostly their voice, they are able to hear the stage so guitar, drums and bass are not in their mix, it's mostly voice and a bit of keys. This is set up on aux 3 for example and the Aux 3 output is sent to one channel of a foldback amp (don't skimp, we use a Peavey CX1000).
The back line for the guitarist, drummer, keys and bassist has a mix of vocals, guitar, keys and bass and is set up during the sound check. A mix is created on aux 4 for example and this goes to the other channel of the foldback amp and then to the backline speakers. I put the back line on stands.
You have to watch out for feedback, using decent stage mics such as SM58's helps, they have good rejection for anything off axis. The trick is to get everything audible above the drums, since drummers seldom come with a volume knob.
All this is separate to the auditorium mix which is also set up during the sound check.
Happy to help with specifics.
Thanks for that. I mostly understand, which is a step above a few days ago. So when I'm looking for my "Do it All" mixer, I should look for one that has a couple of Aux outs? Or is that what I look for on the PA head when I do a gig with someone else's gear?
I'm also looking for one that had a USB out for recording direct to the computer. Hoping it will do both, AND be small enough to lug around to gigs.
From what you are describing, I think two aux outs is enough. Like Mike said, most will be cool with the heavy to vocal mix and then you'll have another output left for the difficult ear.
A mixer with a USB recording device would be handy. And hopefully you can find one small enough with multiple Aux outs.
Quote from: M_Glenn_M on June 19, 2011, 11:10:28 AMThanks for that. I mostly understand, which is a step above a few days ago. So when I'm looking for my "Do it All" mixer, I should look for one that has a couple of Aux outs? Or is that what I look for on the PA head when I do a gig with someone else's gear?
I'm also looking for one that had a USB out for recording direct to the computer. Hoping it will do both, AND be small enough to lug around to gigs.
Minimum of 2 aux channels. You can use the other aux channels for effects like reverb on the vox, compression on the bass / overheads for drums etc.
USB out is OK, but the auditorium mix is unlikely to be a good recording mix. If you want to record live you can use aux outs as a separate stereo mix (assuming you have a stereo desk)
Better still is a multitrack recorder (I use the Alesis XT 8 track) and do an off line mix. But this needs a channel pre-fade output and your desk is more complex.
It does mean that you have to get all your drums mic'd up and do a separate mix for these.
Want lotsa bang for your buc... I picked up one of these systems and it worked wanders.... my only complaint is that I haven't found an earbud that will stay in my ears while I'm drumming... constantly adjusting them back into the ear. This is really a drummers dream come true. Can't believe I went all this time without picking one of these systems up. No more lugging around heavy monitors and no more feedback issues. Worked for me.
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-GAA-AS9004K1-LIST