melody or lyrics first?

[Geir]

^hahahahahahahahahaha.....is that you Gringo?

now where is gringo these days ?

[64Guitars]

if you write lyrics first, that is not a song IMO but a poem to which later you're trying to fit some melody.

Lyrics without music is an unfinished song, not a poem. When lyrics are written, there is an intention to put them to a melody at some point. There is no such intention when writing poetry. It's the end result of lyrics put to a melody that makes a song. How you achieve that end result doesn't make it more or less of a song. The finished work is either a song or it isn't. And if it was intended to be a song, then at any stage prior to completion it's an unfinished song. If you write the music first with the intention of adding vocals later, it's not an instrumental; it's an unfinished song.

[Flash Harry]

Thankfully, I don't have to think about these things.

I'm just glad when noodling becomes a bit more structured and things fall into place.

[Oldrottenhead]

there are no rules to writing a song i dont know if leonard cohen writes the words first or the melody or the tune or does them all simultaneously, but his words are poetry. when you have rules well its time to get in the box and get lowered into the ground. rules lead to complacency so mix it up, but most importantly wether you write the words or music first or altogether keep it fun, at the end of the day its only a song.

[AndyR]

when you have rules well its time to get in the box and get lowered into the ground.

Now, this...

I probably won't do it, but this is a good example of where a song might come from for me.

I originally read it wrongly as:

"when you have rules well its time to get in the box and get lowered into the ground"

What a fantastic mental vision, what does it mean? etc
Then I read it again, correctly. Slightly disappointed, but it's still a good phrase evoking stuff in a familiar but slightly different way.

In the old days (writing songs for the band I was fronting), I'd have written the following on the "ideas and titles" pages in the back of my pocket-sized lyrics notebook:

"its time to get in the box and get lowered to the ground"

Next time I was strumming my guitar and a likely progression or riff came up, and no words came with it, and I wanted or needed to write a song, then the "ideas and titles" pages would get looked at. If anything jumped out at me, I'd use it, and start mouthing words over the guitar part. Sometimes two or three of the entries in the notebook, and the music/mood at the time, would cause a completely different connection to be made from the original "oh wow I like that idea" that caused me to make the note in the first place.

The rest of the notebook was for working up lyrics of songs in progress or "songs to be" while I was on the move or away from my musical environment (eg commuting to work, lunchbreaks, travelling to and from rehearsals, etc).

I have to say, though, I buy into this, big time:

Thankfully, I don't have to think about these things.

I'm just glad when noodling becomes a bit more structured and things fall into place.

I do think about it as well, but pretty much I'm just noodling (music, words, ideas, emotions, whatever) and sometimes it becomes a bit more structured and then I know I'm on to something.

[phantasm777]

i can do both, write a song around lyrics or  write the song and then the lyrics. right now i write the songs and then when nearly done i put in lyrics. i also believe a poem and lyric are almost the same expecially if there is a cadence in the poems structure. i dont see any real deal about making a poem into a song, certainly not impossible.

i've been writing lyrics and poems since i was 14 and over 1800 lyrics and poems later i can see where they have more similarities, than differences. if the poem has good enough cadences in the flow of the words, its bound to make a good lyric. for now i am doing melody first, but im early on in my music making so i cannot make as many more complicated songs as id like, just yet, till i work the bugs out on not playing bass and guitar for 20 yrs. but that day will come.
i always write lyrics, poetry spontanouesly, just about never pre-thought out on subject. though lately i have had names to unfinished songs, and i would write around the title to make it fit in, so that was pre-thought out. i find it best to let my subconscious write and not my conscious, which is probably why i cannot remember anything i wrote enough to recite it from memory. i even have to read my own lyrics when singing for my song, but then, i am not out playing these songs a zillion times for the lyrics to be remembered either.

[Daniel Storey]

I can do either, with varying degrees of success with both.

In general, the ones that get finished (writing that is, recording is something separate for me) usually get sparked by some improvised guitar and vocal noodling that grabs me at the time.

I found out a while ago that "title first" is the most efficient/economic way of getting to a completed song that more people than just your nearest and dearest think is any good. This kind of makes sense when you think about it - certainly for three, four minute songs. A song is a self-contained statement, the title is the bit that we use to say "oh, I like so-and-so", so the title should encapsulate the whole thing if at all possible. So if you've got a title, and it sits in the hook (the chorus or whatever), and if you keep focused on what it means to you, it can be easier to finish off the rest of it. This works whether you're talking about music first or lyrics first.

Even when I'm trying to stick to this, though, my most used method is still the same: I get one set of lyrics for each element (verse, chorus, etc) that sing/perform well by just improvising the song (music and lyrics together). I then take the thing apart, figure out how long it is, how much more is needed, where the emotional highlight(s) are, and write the rest. Usually what I call the "arrangement" gets finished first - how many verses/choruses/other-bits, any key changes, where instruments and backing vocals might be added or dropped out (I imagine this all in my head while strumming the thing at a mirror usually).

If I'm lucky, all the lyrics arrive during this process. Otherwise I take the A4 pad somewhere away from the music and try to write the stuff that's meant to be there but isn't. The trick seems to be about remaining "supple" and open to change. I used to feel commited to anything I'd already managed to finish, but this can lead me into a corner I can't get out of and the song is impossible to finish. Nowadays, I find that what I thought was the first verse can easily turn out to be the last verse, or not even in the song at all...

This +1

[dragonshade]

Personally... I find if there is a good melody in whatever chord progression you are using record it. Then listen to it about 20 times or more.. and lyrics and lyrically melody will come. Likely for me it is from the subconcious, and that explains why during anywhere from my 5th to 100th listen to what I have so far... lyrics and lyrical melody just come without trying to force them.. just letting myself hear, and then begin to fill in (hearing it in my head) without thinking about it. Worth stating I do not have any idea what the song will be about ahead of time... I let the flow, the muse, the subconcious take it, and go with it. Once this process has begun and the song has a direction I can build more lyrics very easily.

My problem is having great verses, but no chorus.. and then having to "create" the best part of the song (chorus) from nothing. So.. in that context.. I wish I could figure out how to create a chorus first lol, and if you do.. GO WITH IT! There are many ways to create a song, and there are no rules really (many GREAT songs have broken them all long ago). This is just what I do, may help you.

Ray

[AndyR]

"My problem is having great verses, but no chorus.. "

Yep, I know exactly what this feels like

[Oldrottenhead]

this one https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=16003 (shameless self bump) happened quite organically. i try to mix up the way i write but the method on this one is generally quite fruitfull.

the method being , strum a guitar and work out a chord progression and hum along with it,then humming sparks a few words that fit. then work out a structure for the song, trying to find which chords and progressions seem to work. then when structure is worked out strum and sing and the words start flowing. write the words down, tweak them to make some sort of sense, tho they dont have to if the words are asthetically pleasing to your ears. hit record strum and sing.

then when you have the idea down, you can leave as or do a full arrangement et al.