Swindle Or Not?????

[Gnasty]

Okay i am a HUGE Led Zeppelin fanatic. I don`t think there is one tune I do not like. And i can`t say that for ANY other band i do like.

I just recently came across a cd which i dont think is real but very interesting. It`s called The Great Led Zeppelin Swindle. I knew about the lawsuit where they had to give Willie Dixon royalties, but when you listen to these tunes you do get a sense that well in my mind they didn`t rip it off, but inspired from. My question to you is YOU to tell me what You think about it?

Some of these you might have heard or have to youtube. Some of them you can`t.

Led Zeppelin actually opened up for Spirit early in their careers. If you listen to Taurus the beginning sounds sorta like Stairway but not even close to the incredible musicianship of that song.

Here`s the list............

You Shook Me             - Muddy Waters

Dazed And Confused    - Yardbirds

Black Mountain Side     - Anne Briggs - Blackwaterside

I Can't Quit You, Baby   - Little Milton - I Can't Quit You Baby

How Many More Times   - Howlin' Wolf - How Many More Years

Whole Lotta Love         - Muddy Waters - You Need Love.

Lemon Song and The Girl I Love - Sleepy John Estes - The Girl I love She Got Long Curly Hair

Bring It On Home - Sonny Boy Williamson - Bring It On Home

Hats Off To (Roy) Harper and Custard Pie - Bukka White - Shake Em Down

Stairway To Heaven - Spirit - Taurus

In The Light and WHite Summer - Hayley Westenra - She Moves Through The Fair

Nobody's Fault But Mine - Blind Willie Johnson - Nobody's Fault But Mine

[Saijinn Maas]

I am right there with you in how high regard I hold Led Zeppelin. But I heard most of these comparisons a while back, I as much as I love them, it is really hard to say that they didn't just outright steal these songs. Especially in the songs they took lyrics as well as music.

I saw one video showing that all except two of the song on their first album, were taken (borrowed, stolen, etc...) from other songs.

Others, while it is obvious that they took the beginning of Spirit by Taurus, it is also obvious that they made it better. Though, what exactly is a good cover song if not a good rendition of an original song... sometimes better, usually different?

Though, in the end...   I DON'T CARE. I can't help it... 

Led Zeppelin still rocks!!!!

[Greeny]

A lot of these original songs are blues songs, so it's probable that they weren't entirely original themselves. Muddy Waters in particular has been quite open about taking earlier blues songs (from the days when these things were never committed to record) and adapting them. So I guess that Zep are just following in that blues tradition of borrowing riffs and ideas from a greater musical 'consciousness'.

The biggest Zep rip-off for me is Robert Plant's vocal style. All the phrasing and histrionics is pure Janis Joplin to my ears.

And I don't think the Yardbirds can count as a rip-off, as Jimmy was in them!

I love Led Zeppelin - one of the most important bands ever. You can never get tired of some of those songs.

[AndyR]

Later releases do actually credit the "original" in the case of some of the blues songs.

Eg most of the original Led Zeppelin II Lemon song is Killing Floor (Howlin Wolf) - I think that's one of the ones that is now credited, I'd have to check the CD case...

The instrumental element of Dazed and Confused was JP's creation in the Yardbirds. However there is some doubt as to how original it was then - even the title... I can't remember who it was, but there is a precursor (maybe the on NY folk scene?) that could have been the "inspiration" and it is likely JP that would have seen/heard it performed. The lyrics... well RP seems to have sung a different set every time, often quoting blues "standards".

One thing that really shocked me a year or so ago was finally hearing Bob Dylan's cover of "In My Time Of Dying" on his first album. I'd always thought that Led Zeppelin's treatment on Physical Graffitti was SO amazingly original... it turns out that it sounds like it was just a (very talented) electric rock band covering the Bob Dylan arrangement! (I've not heard any precursor to Bob Dylan's version though - taking into account how he was working at that time, it could be an original arrangement by him, or it could be his reading of wherever he heard it...).

A bit like Greeny's take on it, I always kind of remind myself that a lot of this stuff is in the "folk tradition", and the entire environment was all a bit "arty" over creating music (no bad thing in my book ). Mr Page was trying to create a new "thing", a sound, a band, a live experience, a musical statement... On top of that you do records... They were "in business", obviously, but they were very much driven by what might be regarded as slightly "hippy ideals" nowadays regarding the music itself - their, Led Zeppelin's, performance of a thing is what mattered in their minds.

I think mistakes were made because people just didn't realise at the time how much money these things might be worth... Only the "business" people in the industry at the time really understood that publishing is where the money is (in fact it sounds as if people in bands still get surprised when the songwriter's income is significantly larger ), JP might have been astute enough to realise that, but I don't think RP was. They were just a bunch of very driven (and young) and highly inspired musicians. And also, all these recordings that various "white boys" were plundering for inspiration and to create "rock" were pretty much "underground" - so a certain amount of ignorance/naiivety about ownership is likely to have existed in musicians's minds. Doesn't really excuse it though - the Stones credited, EC credited... many contempories did what we'd regard as right, even back in the early/mid 60s.

JP, because of his lack of power in the Yardbirds debacles, teamed up with Peter Grant and the game-plan was "get financially independent asap so that we can make the noises we want to make, and make sure we get paid for what we do so we can keep doing it..."

In the general whirlwind of 69-72 or so, I suspect it never occurred to them that they were doing anything other than incorporating "folk songs" - half of them might not even have known initially that nearly every lyric that came out of RP's mouth was from a blues/folk standard...

I could say, well surely Peter Grant as management/etc should have been sorting this stuff out? He would have understood it... But, what if he didn't know the original songs himself, so wasn't aware what the boys were doing? And the boys themselves, blind to it being an issue, didn't mention "hey look what we dun to this great Howlin Wolf number..."?

So in hindsight, yep, a bit of financial rip-off occurred, but a swindle (which to me implies "deliberate", it might not to everyone )...? Nah... I don't think it was really intended... And the survivors do seem to be fairly contrite about now, and have made some restitution where possible (or "where forced to" a sceptic must add )

[Bluesberry]

My take on this whole thing was that JP got a great idea, he heard Cream re-do old blues songs, he heard the British folk scene re-do old folk melodies (Bert Jansch and all them fellas).  JP thought that he would take all these old blues and folk ideas, and mix them up a bit, and re-do a lot of it in a heavy electric guitar formula.  His style of guitar playing, the very heavy riffs, that came from taking old blues songs, the same riffs done on an acoustic guitar, and re-done on a Telecaster through a cranked amp, that was his idea, and it was pretty original at the time.  He took Cream and out muscled them, out riffed them.  It was astonishing really, which is why they became huge overnight.  The material that they took was not their own and not original, they did something original with it.  The problem for me is they didn't give credit for their sources.  They pretended they wrote the music and lyrics for all these.  A good example is Black Mountain Side.  His music on this is identical to Bert Jansch's version of the Anne Briggs - Blackwaterside, but JP changed the name and claimed that he wrote it on the album.  That is my problem with Led Zeppelin.  That said, I still love them and listen to them regularly.  I don't think JP (music) and RP (lyrics) were very original and they borrowed very heavily from everybody all around them.  They should have owned up to their borrowing and not pretended they wrote all that themselves. 

[launched]

A lot of these original songs are blues songs, so it's probable that they weren't entirely original themselves. Muddy Waters in particular has been quite open about taking earlier blues songs (from the days when these things were never committed to record) and adapting them. So I guess that Zep are just following in that blues tradition of borrowing riffs and ideas from a greater musical 'consciousness'.

Later releases do actually credit the "original" in the case of some of the blues songs.

Eg most of the original Led Zeppelin II Lemon song is Killing Floor (Howlin Wolf) - I think that's one of the ones that is now credited, I'd have to check the CD case...

I was thinking that the actual "lack of credit" scandal was resolved as well. What I think gets left out sometimes is that Zep turned these traditional blues numbers (Yes, traditional. The only thing authentic about the Delta bluesmen was the bus traffic in the background) and refined them to the point where they were listenable to "normal" people like me.

 I hate to peg myself like that, but I can listen to Zep I and II all day long, and I'm running for cover when a Robert Johnson album gets broken out.

So I don't think the Zep boys were thieves. And the amazing material in their subsequent albums made me a fan for life. I can't get enough of that band. Maybe that's why I so strongly defended Them Crooked Vultures so much. JPJ is my hero!

[Kevin Mammoth]

I'm a big Zep fan - I wasn't aware of this whole rip off thing until a few months ago when  I read a Zep biography called "When Giants Walked The Earth" by Mick Wall (Orion Books 2008) - it goes into quite a bit of detail about all these alleged rip offs, including the obvious blues ones, and more obscure ones as well, like Dazed and Confused being ripped off from a folk singer named Jake Holmes.  Wall basically concludes Zep were ripping off songs all over the place. I have no idea how much truth is in it though, as I have never heard most of the originals he writes about. 

Sometimes I wonder about the line between being "influenced" by an artist, and blatantly ripping them off, it is not always obvious...

[AndyR]

Jake Holmes, that's the boy

I think I have heard a demo or live recording of it, and it's arguable. 'Tis most similar, but I didn't think the same... I'm not sure I'd want to assert that JP stole it, even if he'd heard it. I can't really remember, but I even have a feeling that the most "identical" bit is actually the title and the mood (and possibly the key), and you can't really copyright them...

If it were enforcable, then Iommi/Butler/Ward should be VERY rich men for all the Sabbath riffs and moods that have been "written" ever since the early/mid 70s

[Gnasty]

Wow great comments everyone!!

The biggest Zep rip-off for me is Robert Plant's vocal style. All the phrasing and histrionics is pure Janis Joplin to my ears.

Never thought of that. But damn!! Robert Plant was still incredible! When you watch The Song Remains the Same and How the West was Won. Their stage presence was awesome.
I think JPJ didn`t get ANY credit he deserved. Out of the four he was always fourth but he wrote alot of music too. And he played Bass, keys, and mandolin. It`s amazing how life is.

I have a new take on all of this though. I do believe they really should fess up but taking inspiration from a little guitar bit isn`t a crime.
Stealing lyrics is a crime to me though. But back then they didn`t have award shows, which i completely hate anyway.
The only thing Zep ever got was a lifetime achievement i think at the Grammys. I could be wrong. And if you see these Bubblegum fukin popstars getting up and accepting an award for a song they didn`t write it`s criminal to me. It`s like an athlete taking steroids or Tiger Woods pimping and pumping hoes. They should feel guilty. I know i would.

Anyways...I`m done ranting!.....................FOR NOW!! 

Keep the comments coming!

[Geir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc