Song writing.....

[Vanncad]

Great topic! Always interesting to hear other people's views on this process.

Some great tips already posted on this thread that I totally agree with:
1. Record "bits and pieces" of songs. Keep listening back to these bits over time and sooner or later 2 or more will fit together.
2. Keep a notepad and pen and pencil handy. Jot down as many ideas as you can and sooner or later 2 or more of these ideas will fit together as well.
3. Don't worry too much about "structure" unless you're getting paid to write a hit (or if that's what you are aspiring to). This is just my opinion.
4. Be inspired. Allow yourself to look at things in a different light and maybe ask "what if that was me?". Put yourself in another person's shoes, and write the lyrics from their perpective. Be a story-teller.

I don't know if it's possible to "learn" how to write a great song. Sure, there are certain chord progressions that just naturally seem to fit together and make hit songs, and there are oodles of scales, techniques, etc. but for me it just comes down to emotion.

The best songwriters always seem to be "tortured souls".

Hey 48 - Just keep writing and recording those "little pieces", no matter how stupid or sh*tty it sounds (to you). When you record a riff, just sing the first thing that comes into your head, and see if you can make something from it.

After years of writing, you will just build a natural connection that flows from your heart to your head and then finally to your hands.

 - Vann

[launched]

This thread has been a great read! I love seeing how others make their magic.

I am no expert, but one thing I know for sure is that there are no rules to making a song, and your first song will be the hardest one to make. 

I hope you make some songs, Mike!!! Can't wait to hear them!

Peace,

Mark

[tony]

This is a really productive thread.  I'm learning a lot from this. 

One thing that I do, and I don't write many songs and finish even less, is lift things from elsewhere.  I take a song structure from here, a riff from there, a backing vocal from somewhere else.  By the time I've adapted the structure to what fits my lyrics, changed the key of the riff and adapted the backing vocal to what I can (try to) sing, there isn't hardly anything of the originals left and it feels like I'm paying some sort of homage to those great songs that got me going in the first place. 

I suppose the short version is that I steal with the utmost respect.

[Bluesberry]

You know what i do a lot, I'll be strumming my acoustic and fall upon a chord progression that really appeals to me, 3 or 4 chords, strummed together for 30-40 seconds creating a real nice feeling when I strum.  I think of this as a chunk.  I then write it down and look at the chords, ok, what key is this in, now using other chords from the same key family I find another "chunk' that feels good, fits in with the first chunk and can be played in about 30 or so seconds.  Write that one down, find a third and possible a 4th chunk this way, all fitting within the chord family of the first chunk (dont forget the relative minor chords of the chord family, they also fit in).  Then I strum through these and figure what feels like chorus, what like verse, what like bridge, what like into or outro.  re-arrange these and write it down.  Play it all the way through in one go a few times and start feeling out lyrics for the sections.  I have written a few songs this way and have usually been happy with the results.

[Rickocaster]

Great topic, and great posts!

Honestly, I haven't written nearly as many songs as some of the other users in this forum, but I have analyzed and charted hundreds. So here's my $.02 for what it's worth:

1. I agree with Ted; capture ALL of your ideas, whether it's on a cell phone voice recorder or a napkin. Orchestral composers are famous for doing this. I've heard John Williams is famous for keeping an extensive library of ideas that he can piece together later. It allows him to throw entire movie scores together very quickly.

2. Analyze how songs in your riff's genre are constructed and then use that as your framework. A really good way is to go to www.pandora.com and build a "station" out of a song that sounds closest to your riff. It won't take long for you to notice some similarities in where the A, B, and C sections occur.

3. Let the message guide you. What's the hook? How often do you want to repeat it? How much is too much? Would your message be best delivered with a few simple words or with a more complex story?

4. Every song needs variety to keep the listener's attention. The purpose of a bridge is to provide mental relief so the listener wants to hear more of the song. If you don't use a bridge, then insert something else about 2/3 of the way through the song - maybe an instrumental section or a section with dynamic contrast.

5. Do an acoustic scratch recording before you invest your time in recording real tracks. If it's interesting with just one guitar and one singer, you can be sure it will be even more interesting with a full band sound.

[T.C. Elliott]

Writing the bridge or middle 8 or instrumental section in a song can be the most fun. You want something that fits but is different. It works best to find chords that build to the first chord of your chorus or whatever the bridge leads to. It is well worth the time, imo, to play with chords and leading tones that make the listener expect to hear that chorus coming, it's like a bit of tension and the relief is the chorus or the instrumental section following the bridge. I find myself going to the instrumental route quite a bit. The guitar solo right after the bridge just seems to fit but I probably rely on it too much. But it is a common structure.

I have a song I wrote years ago called "fade away" in which I have an intro then a chorus, then verse chorus solo verse chorus outro (same as intro repeated.) Without the solo it's a palindrome. It actually works quite well and was one of my most requested songs back when I had a singer to perform it. In other words, play with structures till you get one that works. Use a verse chorus structure if that works best. If something isn't quite right, try rearranging and developing other sections. You can have a verse prechorus (that changes lyrically every time) chorus (like The Very Last Time by the Bottle Rockets) and end on an extended guitar solo or jam section. Not the usual pattern but it works.

[Greeny]

Tim and others => when you folks add bridge/change in the progression/structure, what path do you folks usualy follow, and how do you figure the melding of the chords so you can get back to your original structure - so it melds together?  Do you just finish the bridge on a chord that would match the begining of a verse or chorus?

There's probably a technical answer to this (all about root notes and keys and stuff), but I just use good old gut instinct. If it sounds ok, it's right! That said, most of my bridges, middle 8's and codas are vocal driven - i.e. it's less about the chords, and more about whether there is a smooth and acheivable vocal transition from part to part. This is a good test - if you can't sing it because it suddenly changes key or doesn't fit chordally, then it's probably no good. Again, there's no right or wrong answer.

Thinking about vocals, it's always interesting to take existing (i.e. borrowed/ adapted) chord patterns and sing a completely new vocal melody over the top of them. Or play around with those chords using a capo to give you something different. Capos have become an essential part of my kit.

Another good place to start is with the right hand: i.e. strum patterns. I've built whole songs around particular strum patterns and rhythmic approaches. It's amazing how quite a simple chord progression can take on a whole different feel when you play around with the strumming and picking.

This is a great thread. It's making me think about things I never analyse!

[Sprocket]

Tim I wasn't thinking about any Blues type stuff I wanted to jump out of my box.......
But on reflection as I know the Blues Genre a bit it may be the best place to start

Yeah, and the good news is you should be able to wake up tomorrow with a song written.

I can play and hear 12 bar sequences in my sleep

[Ted]

I recall an interview with Andy Partridge (of XTC).  When he thinks he's finished a song, he'll sing it to an empty room with no accompaniment.  If the melody and words stand on their own without any rhythmic or harmonic support, then it might be a keeper.

I think of that often when I write, but it's not my ultimate test. (I'm not sure if I know what is my ultimate test.)

I tried and failed to find the original quote from Partridge on the Web.  However, I did find this songwriter's perspective of XTC's "Dear God."

Whatever your opinion of "Dear God's" lyrics, it is important to note that the song is a wonderful testament to the fact that you can write a good song about damn near anything, but that it often helps to animate your unusual or possibly offensive lyrical ideas with music that opposes rather than compliments the words. "Dear God" is an amazing study in contrasts that most of us can only aspire to getting away with: a controversial, angry lyric paired with a gorgeous melody; a demanding chord cycle worthy of Shostakovich played sweetly with acoustic guitars and string quartet; a slap in the face that comes off as an awkward caress.

[godinqc]

Yes very good topic .. and very good pointers. I've been paying more attention to how sounds are build since I read this topic .. Now I have to give it a try .. but this might take a while since I usually just play over backtracks or create a quick drum sequence with no real pattern.
.
OK now I have to find paper, start writing down ideas and try to put it all together .. humm ... I might get a song by next year 

Salut !