BR 1600 (and Sibling) Capabilities

[Blooby]

I went ahead and changed the name of the thread since the topic veered away from chord mapping.  Just trying to be logical.

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Several have posted questions about the chord mapping/programming capabilities of the BR-1600 (and I assume its smaller siblings).  I couldn't answer, so rather than go to bed as my body instructed, I tinkered last night.  What can I say?  Things like this just bug me.

I found out that you can program bass patterns as you would a drum machine.  The chord mapping allows your bass patterns to play in key.  It does not, however, "choose" bass lines for you as far as I can tell (as some people were stating).  You still must choose from the available patterns.  It can alter a bass line from major to minor or with no major or minor tonality at all.

There is a tempo map tool as well.  Upon further research, it appears you can create scenes with different effects, keys, bass timbres, drum set types, and tempos as well.  Hope this clarifies somewhat.  I'm sure it's still the tip of the iceberg.

When would somebody use a chord map?  Hell, I don't know, especially if you own a bass.  I can see it as diversionary entertainment as I love to see how much musical trouble I can get myself into at times.  I wonder if it works with midi?  And no, I'm not staying up again tonight to find out.

The example of chord mapping below (obviously) has programmed bass, and it jumps from Gm to A major at 1:07 and back to Gm at 1:54, using the easiest chord map I could think of.  The piano was an afterthought just to accentuate the different section (where the key change occurs).

Peace.

Blooby

*Upon listening back, I'm now wondering if the supposed A major bass line in the piano section is really minor.  Hmmm, this bears some investigation.

[launched]

Ok - I'll just get this out of the way first "Why don't you get a job with Boss, Tascam, Korg, etc. and perform demo shit for a living?" Do you know how many pimply faced kids would blow their allowance/life savings for audio equipment after hearing what you "Slapped together"? I would have drained my summer's worth of lawn mowing money...

I just have the little guy, which is all I deserve experience and technical talent-wise.

So here's my question:

What would be your biggest reason be for owning a BR1600? Obviously it is a powerhouse that can record several tracks at once, play back over 12 tracks (I think), and has step based drum pattern recording, etc.

I ask this because my biggest hangup with the MBR is not the shitty rhythm section, but the ability to playback only 4 tracks - I would probably get a BR600 if I were ever to upgrade.

Just curious - maybe there's something I don't see - that's the reason for my first paragraph. If I saw someone like you demo-ing the top model, It might prompt me to buy something I may or may not need.  Which is the way of the world, I guess...

Thanks, man

Mark

PS - Sorry to Rick-roll the post - Spur of the moment question that I may not have the chance to ask otherwise.

[Blooby]

I don't know if I "slapped" this together.  It was the first time I used the chord map thingy, so I wrestled with the learning curve for a bit.  I didn't over-analyze my playing much as the goal was to just fiddle with the hardware.

I can't speak for everybody who has a 1600 or similar machine, but the ability to plug in everybody live is nice.  Once every two weeks or so, folks come over, plug into direct boxes and an electronic drum kit, and we just play.  We're not playing through amps, so as long as somebody is not going crazy gain-wise, it sounds good to my ears.

Tonight (unrelated to the post above), I had two guitars, bass, stereo drums, vocals, and a ubiquitous Kaossilator all plugged in.  Fun stuff with good fidelity.  Unfortunately, I started with rum earlier today, so my playing was akin to the performance of a drunken Karaoke singer.  I think posting something from tonight would be a bad idea.

Reasons the advanced BR's are cool (off the top of my head...)
     -I love that I can tweak individual instruments from a live recording.
          -I revamp bass sounds regularly after recording them.
     -Additional dedicated reverb, eq, delay, and compression are nice to have.
     -I play along to bass patterns often.
     -I like faders (my biggest hang-up with the Micro)
     -The effects editing is scary deep.
     -I can jam with another human being (or several) and record us to different channels.
     -It has chord mapping (woo-hoo...don't know if I'll ever use it again).
     -It has loads of items that aren't make-or-break features, but I use them often.
          -Expression pedal for volume, wah, whammy, whatever.
          -Punch-in and punch-out with or without foot pedal.
          -Mastering toolkit is very advanced.
          -My cat Fido often sleeps on top of it.
     -It has a channel for loops.  Some of them (like light percussion) are very usable.
     -Things get done faster with the 1600.  This track above had the drums, the bass
      track, first lead on one track, delayed rhythm on another, piano on another,
      second lead on another, and tremolo guitar on the last.  I moved some faders
      around, chose some insert effects, and poof! I was done (well, maybe not
      "poof").  To put it another way, listen to a Bosko track and imagine it being
      created on a Micro.  It can be done, but...yikes.

Having said that, I have a Micro-BR and love the thing.  I recommend it often to folks and don't know that I've ever recommended the 1600.  I know if my 1600 broke, though, I would save up and replace it.

By the way, the "shitty" rhythm section on the Micro is one of its strong points in my opinion.  My only complaints with the unit are the menu (sometimes deep) editing, the lack of faders, and its crapola long reverbs.

I can really tell I'm buzzed because I was talking to myself while peeing.  Isn't that a giveaway?

Blooby

[Ted]

Blooby,

I'm not sure what kind of feedback you want on this, but... fuck, the bass sounds pretty good.  And I say this as a bass player who is suddenly feeling remorseful for my callousness towards drummers ever since I got my first drum machine 20 years ago or so.

Only at the end (when there was no guitar or piano accompaniment) did the bass sound obviously synthetic to me.  If I hadn't known, I probably could have been fooled throughout.

By the way, the "shitty" rhythm section on the Micro is one of its strong points in my opinion.

I tend to agree.  When I do my rhythm sequencing on the Micro BR, I often audition every single goddamn pattern--sometimes at half or double tempo. The frustration with not being able to just program what I had in mind is (often, but not always) replaced with the thrill of discovering a pattern that works better than what I had in mind.

[Greeny]

You are an incredible musician, Blooby. I admire your skill and your modesty, and for a 'demo', this blows a lot of proper tracks out the water! The bass sounds pretty good to me - certainly passable for those who don't have a real bass. But what do I know? lol

[AndyR]

Wow, that sounds pretty impressive - not sure I'd use it in a final song, but would sure save time when structuring/arranging stuff.

I'm getting severely tempted by the 1600 - for many of the reasons you say Blooby - but I still love the mindset that the MBR puts me in, seems to be more creative than when I have millions of options.

One of the things I want to know about the 1600 is this - on playback, what can you do to each track? I'm assuming at least level, pan, reverb send... but can you assign different effects, eg compression, to different tracks using different settings? And do you have separate EQ for each track?

[Blooby]

I'm not sure what kind of feedback you want on this

I'm not really sure I was as this was more experimentation that musical endeavor. That being said, input is always welcome and appreciated, so thank you for those who commented or merely passed through.  I was just trying to respond to some BR 1600 inquiries.  I guess I thought it might generate more questions.

On playback, what can you do to each track? I'm assuming at least level, pan, reverb send... but can you assign different effects, eg compression, to different tracks using different settings? And do you have separate EQ for each track?

You can apply effects from the engine to a single mono or stereo track during playback or mixdown, but if you want to modify more than one mono or stereo track, you can always bounce a track, applying whatever voodoo you want (as with the Micro...just with more voodoo), and repeat as necessary.

Additional reverb, compression, and delay work much like effects sends.  You can dial in a setting per effect and then assign how wet you want each of the tracks to be.  Using this method, you can't tweak different effects settings per channel, only the level of effect.

Yes, there is a separate 3-band EQ and pan for each track.

Here's an interactive demo: http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/demos/en/BR-1600CD_IT/index.html

For the record, I'm not trying to influence anybody.  I have and love the Micro.  It's just that some people are on the fence about purchases.  Again, I was merely trying to respond to some BR 1600 inquiries. 

AndyR, I hope I've been clear as I feel a tad muzzy from last night, or as I used to say in high school lo those many years ago, I feel blooby.

Peace.

And now I'm late for work.  Yoicks!

[guitarron]

Wow, that sounds pretty impressive - not sure I'd use it in a final song, but would sure save time when structuring/arranging stuff.

it definitely would be useful for getting an arrangement down
it seemed to inspire you while just messin' around with it
that was a little gem you made with it-liked it much btw

-It has a channel for loops.  Some of them (like light percussion) are very usable.
   

what sort of loops-audio? what channel-does it use a stereo track?

does it have different bass tones to choose from? eg. fretless,picked bass,acoustic bass

thanks for taking the time to do this Blooby, Seems we're all getting know what the 1600 can do

BTW- i agree-Faders make make the work flow and mixing MUCH easier

[SteveB]

ALL - While Blooby has decamped to gainful employment, and to continue to whet your appetite for the Big-Boys of the BR range, I'll try to answer a couple of your questions, because the BR-1200 has much the same set-up as the 1600, minus the 8 inputs, 4 extra tracks (Stereo), another rotary knob to incorporate into your noodling, and an Edirol Video-Out capability, which one of those with the 1600 will have to explain.

The Loop Phrase function takes up a stereo track.

A Drums-Loop CD is included with the machine, but the sounds are already installed on the hard-drive. The CD can be used to re-install the sounds.

Yes there are various Bass tones to choose from.

The 1600 now has an 80gb hard-drive, and 256 V-Tracks.

The machine and facilities are incredible. But it does have a learning curve. But then, so does the Micro. 

Hope that will help until Blooby returns.

[launched]

Hope that will help until Blooby returns.

I'll take it - thanks.



Blooby, many thanks for the extra info. The ability to individually isolate musicians during a jam session is a huge deal. And I didn't even think of the faders. And the separate EQ for each track - handy. And the expression pedal (Wonder how the wah works??) And... And...
And...

By the way, the "shitty" rhythm section on the Micro is one of its strong points in my opinion.

I tend to agree.  When I do my rhythm sequencing on the Micro BR, I often audition every single goddamn pattern--sometimes at half or double tempo. The frustration with not being able to just program what I had in mind is (often, but not always) replaced with the thrill of discovering a pattern that works better than what I had in mind.

When I said "shitty", I should have explained myself better as I agree that there are many thrills to be had finding a pattern that happens to work with a song. (And even lock in with a bass line!) What I meant to say was there are features that could and should be available - ones that would not undermine the value of higher models or make the unit more expensive/complicated:

Only 2 patterns with a tone block in it for pete's sake.

No straight beats at all - there is a cymbal hack to do four consecutive closed hi-hat taps, but that's it - No kick pattern and ratatat snare, either.

No isolated percussion patterns - Tambourine, sleighbell, bongo, tone block, COWBELL??!??

Well, anyway, I feel better now that I bitched.

Thanks again, Blooby,

Mark