I plan to get better at songwriting by doing a lot of it....

[AndyR]

Music and Lyrics is on Netflix. There are some good documentaries about artists too - Ian Drury, Lady Gaga 5fr 2, and Taylor Swift - they all show their songwriting processes - Ian Drury had a book of phrases and ideas that came to him which I've been doing "share a breath" in Stronger - I've got one that isn't finished yet with "pussyfooting around".

and some people just really have it....it is easy....for them...that is true about all sorts of things....but I have found it to be hard but that is ok and I can get better at it....

Sometimes I find it really easy, sometimes I find it really hard.

Have Something to Say

For lyrics, I really think you need something to say. Sometimes you start with that, sometimes you stumble on it when trying to write, other times you end up with "why am I so shit at this?".

I believe it's all because you need something to say before you can start using your own personal brand of eloquence and phrasing to good effect.

The "book of phrases and ideas" helps in that you've noted that there's something you wanted to say but don't have time to do so right now.
When you go through it later, hopefully there'll be something that tweaks you into "hey, yeah, I wanted to explore that, and actually... I still do!!".
Also, don't be afraid of writing "this is crap" next to an idea - Six months later even THAT can spark something. Or if you get a new half idea, but it's not moving you enough to write something, DO NOT FORGET TO WRITE THE HALF IDEA DOWN BEFORE YOU MOVE ON TO AN ANOTHER OLD IDEA YOU DO WANT USE!

Also, for the same reason, never throw anything away. I talk about "the shoebox", it's not really a shoebox, or even one container. It used to be a green ringbinder back in 1979 when I was in the 6th form and people took the piss out of me...  I only had something like 20 songs so they fitted. They were all handwritten, and at the back was the half-finished songs.

When that fell apart, I started on the loose leaf folders or "document wallets". And piles and piles of A4 paper with finished and half-finished stuff on. All carried around in supermarket carrier-bags!

When I gave up music for few years, I nearly burned the bags and the guitars - I had to get away from it all. But instead I just threw them all in the loft.

Now, I have a number of those box-files with the stuff crammed in higgledy-piggledy. When I say the shoebox I mean this lot. From sometime in the early 90s (before the hiatus) I have a handwritten master list of songs by year. Everything on that list is carefully written out on paper somewhere in one of the boxes. That's how I identified that I want to record nearly everything from 1994. Also in there will be the original sheets I used when I was writing a song, if I kept them. Also in there are all the half finished and scribbled ideas. I can sing and play nearly all of it. I also have a number of note books and abandoned books of "phrases and ideas".

ALL of this is potential source material. It helps for both songwriting and for getting recording going again after a pause.

I can suffer two major failures in confidence:

• "I can't sing or play anymore!" - every take I try on the recording machine is shit
• "I can't write lyrics/songs for toffee!!" - everything I try to write is trite bollocks

One of the fixes is to listen to my recordings late at night on headphones after Mrs R has gone to bed... I start off feeling sorry for myself and my lost talent... But I soon discover I like listening to my own recordings as much as say ELO, or Led Zeppelin, or Rory Gallagher, or Queen, or... etc... All my heroes...

Remember how I said further up the thread "get arrogant" - that's what I mean, start appreciating yourself. And be honest with yourself, non of this humility-crap when you're alone in the dark and no-one else is watching or listening. You must have loved what you were doing, otherwise you wouldn't have made the effort... Look at what you've done and try to see/hear it through our (ie someone else's) eyes/ears... WE love what you do, whether you're starting out or have been doing it for years... Other people love it, so start loving it yourself.

Depending on how glass-half-full or -empty I feel after that, it can lead to "I used to be SO good at writing lyrics when I was younger " ... BUT, I've done this self-appreciation thing enough times now to know that I can still write reasonably good lyrics...

Anyways, the other fix for me is to get the shoebox out, an acoustic guitar, and a capo out on a Saturday afternoon and sing. Because, at heart, I'm a performer as well as a songwriter, I need an audience... so I sing to Mrs R for 2, 3, 4 hours while she's reading or doing a jigsaw or whatever.

What that does is get me back in practice (voice and fingers, and "performance", which results in better takes if I've "remembered" how to perform), and helps to raise my confidence. It also gets me re-arranging the "list of songs to record next". Mrs R often goes "you've got to record that one" on something I'd not considered before.

AND, from a songwriting point of view, invariably, the very next day, I have something to say, and I end up writing a new song instead

Have your lyric forming brain in practice

I mentioned earlier about "your own personal brand of eloquence and phrasing" - that is what makes your lyric "voice" different from someone else's. I say things my way, you say things your way, etc. Before you even consider lyrics, we all know of stuff we like, and we naturally lift that vocabulary and construction and add it to our own store of words and phrases. So we're continually expanding the way we like to express ideas. But sometimes we feel more eloquent than others, especially as we get older... I have days when I struggle to know the next word when I'm having a conversation, especially if I'm tired or have been writing a lot (I mean like this, or work, not music).

For lyrics, as well as having something to say, you need that part of your brain up and running and ready to rock. Or sometimes, relaxed and carefree enough? However you want to look at it, I guess...

Basically, though, if you haven't used it for lyrics a while - which is a nicely constrained form of expression - then the engine might be a bit rusty, and you won't be as eloquent as you could be.

I have some tricks I use.

The first is... the approach... I always approach it as a game. I like twisting words and meaning, I get a big kick out of it. I like saying one thing to achieve the opposite in the listener's head. I like playing with words and emotions. It gets me in trouble in everyday conversations or on forums sometimes.

You don't have to be as contrary as that, that's just me (although, by the way, I recognise this trait in certain well-hated politicians at the moment, it's possibly not the best talent to have or use if you want to be a politician in the modern world!! ).

But it is worth (if you don't already) learning to enjoy playing with words, making them do what you want them to do. If that feels difficult or a chore, then lyrics will always come harder.

The second trick is just keeping in practice. You can tell when I'm contented, I sing a running commentary of what I'm doing. I have a standard one that starts with "Slavin, slavin, slavin..." (when I'm cooking and she's on the sofa or whatever) ... I will "lyricise" anything that's going on, just to see if I can fit it (make it rhyme and scan). Mrs R thinks I'm crazy but kind of likes it now. I have even been known to get a song idea ("something to say") out of this... but often it's just profanities and swearing or turning crap things into jokes so I can swallow them a little better.

Sometimes I make up the tune, sometimes I use an existing one - eg "Slavin" is always to the tune of Rawhide, initially. The tune to I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles gets used a lot. Roll out the Barrel. Queen songs get used a lot, etc, etc. Anything goes really. Years ago, on a tour, our band song was "Bollocks" sung to the tune of Amazing Grace... The bassist and I (the vocalists) loved it... we came up with it (big achievement, I know!) in the van on the first day as we were stuck in a queue to get to and past Stonehenge (that was the days of "Travellers" in the UK, and we had to get to the West Country via the A303 on the same bluddy day as all the "peaceful" wankers idiots who wanted to confront the police at Stonehenge ... that year we decided it was best NOT to stop at Stonehenge for our sarnies!! ). The drummer liked the song for the two hours we were in the traffic jam - I think it came from him exclaiming "bollocks!" when something happened (he probably stalled the van when the traffic started moving!), the bassist and I just started singing it. But then the drummer found it got rather old rather quickly... so we sang it to him a lot over the course of the next week. We made up a bunch of other songs too, luckily none of them were as catchy as "Bollocks" so I don't remember them...

Sorry, I digress, er... oh... that's probably enough!

• Have something to say
• Be in practice for "lyricising" what you want to say (sing amusing rubbish at your significant-other)

[Hilary]

This thread is very interesting - I'm used to improvising it's somerhing I'm naturally good at and have a lot of experience doing in front of an audience - so I would think about the placement of words and the power of those words and about cutting out anything superfluous to get as quickly as possible to the point (this holds me back in writing songs). I guess I like improvising songs because I'm flexing the muscle just in case I need it again!

Nothing is easy - I sat with Bacon and Jam for weeks- picking it up, humming along, trying different ideas but persistence won (or not depending on your view of my L&M) the minute I hit on Bacon and & Jam as an idea (that's to Ken's superb track).

I'd say send me the lyrics if you are struggling but what makes them special is you.

I never write anything personal I'm way too guarded- so don't think you have to write about what you know - imagine a scenario that's playing out on a screen in front of you - who's in it - what are they saying/ feeling etc. It doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't even have to rhyme, it doesn't have to do anything but be your expression.

[bruno]

Interesting thread. Like most, if not all musicians - self doubt is a fact of life. The main reason that people become great musicians is as a result of that doubt, and wanting to be better. In my experience, people who are totally self confident are generally no where near as good as they think they are, and often quite shit. Just look at the delusional on Britain's Got Talent!

So, how to progress. This is what I do.

Lyrics I write fast as I can, and avoid simple rhymes - I go for roughly sounding similar, thats normally better for me. Complex words are your friend :-) Most of my lyrics are done and dusted in 5 minutes - however they may sound like that is the case :-) Sometimes the lyrics change during the recording as I can't read my own writing!

For me, I produce the music first. The music then drives the name, and the name drives the lyric. That's just they way it works for me.

Don't over-think anything. Let it flow. You will get caught up in the heat of the moment.

Accept the 1 in 10 rule. You are working for the 1. If the other 9 are not so great, accept it, its part of the process and carry on.

When its done, its done. Leave it be. It will be what it will be, the next one will be better.

I don't like hearing myself speak or sing. So I try not to sound like me. That works for me.

I always tell myself its a rough draft, and I will fix the problems when I do it "properly" - which of course I never do.

Listen to you work after a long period (six months) - you normally think its better than you did at the time.

A recording engineer told me once that everyone can sing, however it all depends on the attitude. Even if you have got the strongest voice, add plenty of attitude, you will have a winner. Sing like you mean it. I would also add, play like you mean it as well. Its generally uncomfortable listening to someone that is timid.

I could go on, but that's my starter for 10. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, or any approach is better than the other - each of us have our own methods. It all depends if it works for you, and that you will discover by doing more ....

B.
 

[Kody]

It can't compare to the others' great wisdom in this thread, but I'll throw in my two cents. I've come to a recent realization in my songwriting block that's lasted the last 20 years. I knew at a young age that music and songwriting would be a part of my life. I had a band in my teens and found some success writing some songs...we recorded an entire album of original material. I thought then that I'd have an extensive catalog of original material at this point in my life, but since then...I've "finished" only a couple songs. I'm too much of a perfectionist- I want every little thing to be just perfect. The lyrics, the melodies, the harmonies, the entire production, etc. Because of this, I've had tons of great ideas just fizzle away to nothing - and have nothing to show for it. Lately I'm telling myself to just finish a damn song and move on to the next one. It's never going to perfect & maybe that's what is perfect about it. At least you'll have something to share with the world. I'm finding a great deal of truth in the subject line of this thread. Doing a lot of it & realizing they might not all be effing Yesterday by the Beatles or some shit - but surely they can't all suck!

I wish you good luck!

[WarpCanada]

Thanks StephenM for listening. I'll upload that Gummy Bears  track so you can download it.