when you begin recording a song, do you have any idea as to what it'll be like?

[Ferryman]

More very interesting comments. I was reading Henny's post and immediately thinking of XTC, IIRC they went completely mental during their "studio" phase and got to the point of recording individual drums in different studios to get the sound "right". That's just crazy. It's all about balance, and like Henwrench, I did go through a bit of a personal journey over the years. I started as a prog rocker and used to focus on the quality of musicianship at the expense of the "song", I recall in about 1976 a group of us going to see a band and afterwards the "musos" like me were going "the guitarist was great", "I loved the keyboard solo" and so on, while the one non-muso with us just said "it was boring." Then punk happened and I saw the "light" - the song and the intensity mattered more than anything, most people didn't care about the quality of the guitar sound or how well the band could solo. Sound quality went out the window (first Clash album sounds horrible!) but who cared? All solos were banned, three chords were all you needed and that seemed great at the time because many people really were fed up with the excesses of the prog and rock "supergroups".

However, I've mellowed and now strike more of a balance between musicality/musicianship and the "song". Prog has become (to a limited extent) OK again and people appreciate musicianship again (but we have not returned to the excesses of the likes of ELP at their worst). I think this is generally the case and, apart from manufactured pop, there is a good balance between musicianship and the "song" in most genres now, which I welcome.

And this is kind of where I have ended up. I wrote a few three chord wonders when I was playing in punk bands but now I like prefer music which is a bit more nuanced. I have in my mind that I want to create something that some people will find interesting and that I can leave for "posterity", which is why I have this concept album idea on the boil. I'd like it to be good enough that it could be compared favourably with commercial offerings and I'd like it to be something that I am personally proud of. I am doing it purely for me, I know it will be an acquired taste and many folks won't like it, but I want it to be "good" to my eyes and ears. So for example I have planned a website and associated imagery (I already have some artwork done by a niece who is a graphic artist).

So here's the problem I have created. I have set myself a goal but my OCD tendencies and lack of time do cause me issues. Unlike Ian, I have infinite patience. I am very happy spending hours trying to get a guitar take right or getting a sound "just so", in fact I quite enjoy that. The fact that I have set a high personal bar coupled with my limited time for any "hobbies" (probably about 5 to 10 hours a week max, and music is not my only spare time pursuit) means I get very little done. And I feel like I ought to be creating and contributing here so I get a bit sidetracked with other stuff which I try to rush out and then feel it's not quite right and then I feel I should be commenting more and then I find I haven't done anything for 6 months and it seems like too much effort to do anything because I've forgotten how to use my DAW, how the BR800 works, how to get that mastering setup etc etc.

What's the answer? Not sure I know but it's been interesting to chat about it and I like sitting in these nice comfy chairs. Probably not typing long posts on threads like this would be a start but it has been fascinating to hear how other people work and to get an insight into their thought processes. It's certainly made me want to get recording again.

[henwrench]

It's certainly made me want to get recording again.

       

[Geir]

It's certainly made me want to get recording again.

       

[AndyR]

I have an idea Nigel (I'm hoping you haven't already tried this! ) - create scratch demos of what you've got.

You're not setting aside the final goal, you're just breaking the huge project down into smaller achievable tasks with measurable deliverables..

And the first task with a deliverable could be "get some rehearsing and arranging done, taping the results" - the deliverable for each song is "a demo I can use to check the thing out - encourage me to continue with it or set it aside in favour of another song".

Be prepared to get elaborate on parts and arrangements, get into that side of it, I imagine it's part of the writing for this stuff... but tell yourself the demos are just demos - DO NOT get too fixated on playing the parts well. Don't even bother recording them all when you've got far enough to hear what the end result is likely to be.

What you're really doing is finding the parts and the vibes, and you're checking out that song C or D really is as good as you'd imagined it might be... (or not - but no worries, just shelve that one and work on another) and you can't do that without hearing it built, at least a little bit.

Do NOT start out expecting to post them here, but I'm sure we'd love to hear what's in progress if you did.

btw - I personally won't post work-in-progress anymore. Invariably it takes away the creative spark on that project - for me, once the song is public, the reason for recording it is usually gone! If someone asked, I might email them a copy, if I have a suitable and acceptable mp3 off of the BR machine already. But I don't really want any feedback unless I have a specific query I need answering, and I definitely don't want an unfinished thing up for general inspection! - that's maybe just me though .

The advantages of creating scratch demos, "for your ears only", are potentially HUGE:

- You get to hear the material
- You get to "solve", or at least identify some potential solutions, to things that will slow down the real recordings later
- You're "back in the saddle" for music again
- You'll figure out how to use the recording machine again!! (I've been there a few times, and after half an hour of actually doing something, I discover I hadn't forgotten at all, and... more surprisingly ... the artistic block is gone!! - sometimes it's been fear of relearning to use the machine that was actually stopping me creating stuff. Never crossed my mind I could have just picked up a guitar and played it a bit instead!!)
- Er... some other stuff... it's all good

Now, if you have been doing this already, I haven't got much else for you - aside from "are you SURE you were creating rough, scratch demos? You know - they sound sloppy enough (to you) that you don't want anyone else to hear them..."

If they're polished enough that you'd post them, but they sound a bit boring - you were probably focusing on the wrong aspect of it!! (I speak from bitter experience)


OH! yeah - just remembered, another potentially HUGE advantage:

- The moment you start working, you'll start writing new (and some of it better) material.

=============

Go for it!!
You know you want to...

[Hook]

It is a very interesting thread. For Me sometimes I do have an idea of how a song should sound in my head (a band if you will) but it hardly ever ends up that way. I'm just having fun!!! I could never make my old cassette tape Tascam portastudio sound like anything but crap so to be able to produce tracks like I've done just makes me giddy. I'm not the best engineer & I don't have a great ear for frequencies but I love songwriting & with the mbr & TJ & my uke the fun just never ends!!!! I have no preconceived notions of getting anywhere with these tracks so I'm not going to take the fun away to seek perfection, I have too many tunes floating around in my head!
FUN ON!

[AndyR]

Oh, and WORK FAST on this scratch stuff Nigel - it's all disposable.

And forget that "the first take is the best" adage (if you're haunted by it like I have been in the past)

IT'S NOT AN ABSOLUTE. It's never ever been an instruction or rule... It's just an observation on what often happens.

Sometimes "the first take in this session on this part" is the best. And the "first take" from 6 months ago definitely isn't likely to be the best - you'd have finished the thing if it was that good.

It's taken me AGES to get rid of this "first take" nonsense. I had set it up like a little god that I had to bow down to. It's potentially paralysing for the rest of the recording when the first take is done. And it's definitely paralysing when you press record to do the take! ... And then when you have to do take two, you've already failed... Sod that! Any take'll do

For scratch demo work, they're ALL going to get deleted one day (unless you decide you really like one) - so why bother trying to get it too right, or too well recorded? (And actually, you'll get some super first-takes once you stop worrying about it!! )

People might be surprised, but I work very fast on this arranging/scratch stuff. Cue the track up, slap some guitar bits on... ooh! that makes me think of something else, set up a mic, have a fag, listen again. OK, wipe that guitar, play it like this now, and another three panned across - wonder what that sounds like if I do it?

I can arse about like that for a very enjoyable hour or so (it is a hobby, after all!) and then go and do something more important like sit on the sofa for a bit. Next day I come back and go "OH!!! I know what to do now!!! " - and there's another bit sorted.

[Ferryman]

All good advice Andy. I will try this, but I need an attitude adjustment. I tend to get to a point with work where I think "right, I'm ready to record" rather than just throw some ideas down and see where they go. I am thinking about something for bassfest as I've had a bass sequence hanging around for years that I don't know what to do with, so a bass-driven song sounds like a good idea. But I'm trying to get the structure, lyrics and drums all done "in my head" before I commit to tape. I should get some ideas down first and try to build the song that way. But I do have a bit of an issue because I don't have a permanent studio space, so to record I have to get various bits and pieces out, hook them up and start recording so I need to get over that and say it's ok to go through that palaver just for a quick but of sketch writing.

I'm afraid I've never believed the first take is the best because I don't practice enough to be fluent so it always takes me several takes to get "into the flow"... And of course for some reason my fingers turn to jelly when the big red button is pressed.

[AndyR]

Ah! The "having to set it all up" problem... I'd forgotten that I have a lot smaller version of that now since we've moved.

When I had more of a set-up issue, it often didn't stop me doing it, but I'd spend all the time fiddling with it while setting up... And it did make me crochety with Mrs R when she wanted me to stop again!! "oh wot??! But I've only just got set up!!!"

And I've just had a thought. We're bandying around painting/drawing terms. I used to do a fair bit of that just before I got back into music again. My best pictures were on scraps of paper or on the cheap paper/board. When I got the expensive stuff out, or stretched canvases, whatever, it all went to pieces.

Somehow, I'm not sure how, I managed to get into a "I don't care if I have to bin this expensive canvas in the next ten minutes..." frame of mind, and I was freed up a bit...

I reckon you need to "play" with your recording equipment for a while - just have fun with it doing whatever you feel like. It sounds like it could be associated in your mind with some sort of "now, let's get serious". Just use it for a bit, no pressure, get used to turning it on, looking at the pretty colours (or whatever) and then turning it off again... (I'm joking, partly, but that's actually what I did with my BR1600 several times a few weeks/months back when I was stuck - turn it on, listen to whatever stalled project it was a few times, browse the internet, listen again, nudge a fader, browse... then after a couple hours I switched it off again. After two or three sessions of this, one day I suddenly wanted to record a new part, and i was off again)

[Ferryman]

I reckon you need to "play" with your recording equipment for a while - just have fun with it doing whatever you feel like. It sounds like it could be associated in your mind with some sort of "now, let's get serious". Just use it for a bit, no pressure, get used to turning it on, looking at the pretty colours (or whatever) and then turning it off again...

There goes my weekend.....