when you begin recording a song, do you have any idea as to what it'll be like?

[Ferryman]

I am actually considering going back to a DAW. But on the limitations side, it scares me a bit. I know I'm going to have to set my own limitations, or I'm going to end up right back where I started!!

Nearly my story.... I tried DAWs but could never get on with them, too complex and too many issues setting up ASIO drivers etc etc. The MBR was great, it allowed me to get reasonable quality stuff done. The BR800 gives me more flexibility in an easy to use box. But I started to want more flexibility in mixing, for example applying effects on part of a track during the mix and for that reason I now do my final mixing in Samplitude. It also gives me more mastering options, something I feel has got a bit weaker in the BR800. And as Mr Eno says it creates limits because it is relatively easy to use and not as sophisticated (and thus complex) as Cubase or Reason.

In some cases I have songs posted that now, a year or two on, I could create AMAZINGLY better versions. I'll never have time for that, what with all the new stuff sat in corners here...

The issue I have is that there are some pieces of work I have done which I think are really good and really would benefit from rework, and I am not happy having the original version as the "finished" version. To be fair, there are some pieces which I wouldn't spend much time on but there are several pieces which turned out really well but I am still unhappy with the mix and production and I really want to go back to them. That creates an issue for me because I feel like I want to create new stuff (so I can post it here) but I don't have time to do that and rework some of my old stuff (which I also want to do). So I have been stuck a bit in limbo without the time/inclination to do anything.....  

[Oldrottenhead]

wow nigel and andy. you guys are really too hard on yourselves. you both write great songs that are always beautifully played and presented.

from my perspective here as a listener/fan. i only hear the song, i don't hear or notice the faults. i hear a great piece of art. the time you guys spend bashing yourselves over the head, you could be writing the next songs, for us fans out here to hear.

gonna quote eno here      “I just do it. You lot decide if it’s good.”

and

 “Two things that really make for good records: deadlines and small budgets.”
Brian Eno (1:02:28)

[Greeny]

I find that time is a great healer when it comes to hearing production and performance faults in my work. Things that grate like hell in the immediate aftermath of mixdown seem to mellow with age, and I've grown more able to accept that things can never be perfect. If I caught the spirit of the song and lyric, it's usually enough for me. And after time has elapsed, I'm able to hear the song as a regular 'listener' rather than a perfectionist producer.

I can count the number of times I've re-recorded something on the fingers of one hand. And that's partly because when I have re-done a song, it loses something (like a photocopy degrading with each copy of a copy...). It's helped me get things as right as I can first time.

My biggest albatross is the songwriting benchmarks I set for myself. I'm always trying to beat my personal 'best'. Currently that's the song 'Bona Fide But Blue'. It means I have a whole new album's worth of material where I don't think I've equalled or exceeded that. And that's like a constant, niggling itch that makes me think every new song is 'filler' and not up to scratch. It's a (really) stupid way to be, but I've done it with every creative thing I've ever done.

[Greeny]

wow nigel and andy. you guys are really too hard on yourselves. you both write great songs that are always beautifully played and presented.

the time you guys spend bashing yourselves over the head, you could be writing the next songs, for us fans out here to hear.

Yes! And yes again!

[64Guitars]

once I have done something I want to go back and improve it, pretty much everything I have posted on here I would re-do given the time.

I'm the same. Nothing I've ever recorded felt finished. There's always something about it that I think I could improve if I spent a bit more time on it. All of my recordings give me mixed feelings of pride and embarrassment. I think all musicians feel that way to varying degrees. But we reach a point where we get tired of working on the same song and want to start a new song instead. So we convince ourselves that the song is good enough as it is and we release it. I guess that point is reached sooner with some people than with others. I need to work on my songs for quite a long time before I'm reasonably comfortable releasing them. And even then I feel a bit of trepidation because I'm still embarrassed about some aspects of the recording. I want to fix it but I'm tired of working on the same song so I let it go.

[AndyR]

wow nigel and andy. you guys are really too hard on yourselves. you both write great songs that are always beautifully played and presented.

the time you guys spend bashing yourselves over the head, you could be writing the next songs, for us fans out here to hear.

Yes! And yes again!

No, no, and... er... no!

Not for me, anyway

I'm not beating myself up at all here, big smile here. (Although I was worried Nigel might be!) I'm just typing about how I feel about some of the old ones (in between takes on the next one!!)

I could go back, with the knowledge I have now, but I'm not going to (eg some of the acoustic ones over the last year - some sound very "hefty", and some thin. Someone thought I'd over-mastered one. Nope, it's in the tracks, I'd misunderstood what the effect of close-mic on the vocals would be... that's the effect! And slightly inappropriate for what I was trying achieve. And the other one, shouldn't have tried to sing a vocal that day ). But they are what they are, and I was OK with posting them - I just wanted them out of the way - I faced it all at the time and said "I'm Happy". If I was doing an album and I wanted the track on it (the thick one), yeah, it would get rerecorded, the recording isn't good enough, and it wouldn't be as difficult as what I'm working on now.

And the ones where I could easily go back and change a final mixing or mastering decision, I'm still not going to, partly as a reminder to myself of how I did it wrong in the first place.

What I'm talking about here (for the second category) is things like Bring Your Daydreams To Me, I was pushing the bass like buggery. It seemed ok on what I was mixing through. But when I got it onto the PC to post, I heard it on the PC speakers and thought "ooh dear". I even stopped and sample listened to other people's songs with big bass, and went "oh it's not so bad, can't be arsed to spend another hour..." and posted it.

Then I went for the long quiet phase while we moved house. When I got the studio halfway set-up a few months later, it was the first thing I listened to before resuming work on Shine. And it was HORRID - I could hear that the "I can't be arsed, it's ok" decision had definitely been the wrong decision. Some speakers and earphones can cope (because they're not reproducing the low frequencies I piled into it), but many speakers do NOT like it at all. That means - bad mixing. It's bad enough that I'd avoid the song if it was someone else's track. I found out how to get rid of it, but decided to leave that version out there to teach myself a lesson! Yeah, it's bad, but it's not like it's gone through all the expense of getting on a record and I'm charging people... it's just a demo like the rest of them.

But it's still the thing I posted to the best of my ability. I'm OK with it like that.

The only song I have revisited months later - and that was to remix - was Sleeping With The Ghost. I messed up and knew it when I was mastering it. But I was so keen on getting the song out, I posted it anyway. But I knew that I'd had to lose half the choir during mastering to tame the top-end on the vocals. Now, that's one of my favourite songs, and has been since I wrote it 20 years or so ago. Still wasn't enough to make me go back... until... last summer, I took two weeks to "do some recording". And I got stuck on... the thing I'm trying to finish now(!) ... nearly a week had gone and I had nothing to show for it. So I cleared the desk, put Ghost on remixed it and posted the new one... and then got two more songs done/going (and a collab, that will be BRILLIANT if the other end ever pulls her finger out!!! ). So, in a way, going back and fixing the one song that was p1ssing me off freed me up to do something new.

Nah, don't worry about me being too hard on myself. They're mistakes I made that I'm able to take the lessons into the next project. Work carries on here, even if it doesn't get finished as fast as you'd like! (There's four "live" things on the go here at the moment, at least two will get completed)

I was actually a bit worried for Nigel - if he really is stuck between redoing something or doing something new. That was partly why I typed about my "not so keen" recordings, saying I wasn't going back anyway, they are what they are... in case that way might reach him too...

And Greeny, yeah, I get the songwriting Albatross sometimes too. I'm lucky in that I've got hundreds of songs, 30 or 40 of which I want to record, so it doesn't really matter when I feel the "oh I'll never write something as good as xyz again - how on earth did I do it???".

But, the main thing is, every now and then you do end up writing something to challenge the last favourite or "best". When it happens, store that knowledge away... there's always gonna be some real goodies later... that's why you pick the guitar or whatever up. Just keep writing. And, even the ones we don't think are that good, someone else always thinks it's their favourite so far...

[Ferryman]

Very interesting thoughts all round. I guess this has turned a bit cathartic for me because I have been stuck in a limbo of my own making. I'll add another problem of my own making, I am quite critical of my own work and ideas, a bit like Tim's songwriting albatross. I do struggle with songwriting and I don't play and practice enough. Unlike Andy (and Tim I guess), I don't have too much material, I don't have enough and I am very critical of what I do have, not much makes it to the "let's record it stage". If I played more and tried out different modes and chord shapes that might get the juices flowing, but I have so little time that I often don't pick up the guitar for days or weeks on end. I also struggle with lyrics, I am very particular with them and getting the words that I feel are right and that don't embarrass me really is hard work. Unlike 64G I don't necessarily get tired of working on a song, I guess a worse problem is that I feel too often the new stuff isn't as good as the old stuff and I know that the old stuff can be better. For example, Cassilda's Song still annoys me because of the drums. They are too high in the mix which destroys the dynamics of the verses and they have an effect on them which causes them to become trebly at points and spike through the mix. That song is probably my favourite piece of work so far, and I want it to be right, it annoys me that there is something about it that I know can be fixed (but is a lot of work to re-do it). At the same time, much of the stuff I am trying out doesn't reach the bar that song set me. I originally imagined a whole concept album of stuff like that, yet four years after doing that song I have 2 tracks (and the second one really does need completely redoing). And if I take time away from doing stuff for the album, I kind of feel like I am not doing myself justice. 

Wow, it sounds like I am in a trough of despair but I guess that is part of the challenge of being involved in anything creative. This has been a very interesting discussion to read and I know I need to get off my backside and get moving on something.

[Oldrottenhead]

my problem is i don't have a shit detector so i post everything i record, mistakenly thinking it is the greatest song i ever wrote,. then in the cold light of sobriety..............................hic burp fart

[Ferryman]

my problem is i don't have a shit detector ......

That may be what makes you such an open, positive person (and a great asset to the site).......

[henwrench]

Just to pick up on a couple of points, mainly from the AndyR and Ferryman camp...

       A very, very long time ago, I used to get totally focused on 'tone'. For this instance, lets concentrate on just the snare drum, but really any instrument will do.
       I would really 'worry' about the snare, what the drummer would think of the sound, what the record label would think, the A&R man, the management, etc., etc. All the time, I was hanging out with other 'tone-heads', and we'd all discuss the many merits of 'perfection'.
       And then, after a few years, I went on holiday. And did something I'd never done before. Instead of hanging out with 'tone-heads', I was hanging out with the most important people of all.....the music fans, the record buyers, the tape bootleggers.
       It was here that I learnt something that crushed my 'sound ethics', made me understand something way beyond the Holy Grail of the perfect tone....nobody gives a fuck what the snare sounds like. Nobody cares what the guitar sounds like. People would look at you as if you were obviously insane if you said 'Wow, the kick drum sure is flappy on this recording.'
       The only thing 'real' people are interested in is the song. And whether they like it or not. There is no middle ground, there is no 'well it sounds good, so it must be a good song'.

                                                                henwrench