when you begin recording a song, do you have any idea as to what it'll be like?

[AndyR]

Ain't music great!

Yep

And probably all of us you mentioned in your post would actually put ourselves in the "Then there's the rest of us who just graft and craft away to the best of our abilities, learning as we go" category!

(And, in addition, we'd probably put you on your own in the "oh flip, how does he do that?!!" category )

I suspect we're all doing our own thing, vaguely understanding and respecting other people's approaches... borrowing what we can, when we can... but realising that they're not approaches that would really suit us 100% for where we're at at the moment.... we're just happy that we've found a way to get something going...

Yep, music is great

[Oldrottenhead]

yup. i think john miles put it well anout music being great


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwARrX1ik8

[Oldrottenhead]

an example od one of the frank black recordings i was talking about, personally i don't think it limits what he can do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX6yDjh_irw

[AndyR]

Have to listen at home - no sound, and DEFINITELY no youtubery (assuming that's what it is) on this work PC.

And, I have to admit... I was able to gloss over it earlier ...I think I vaguely know the name Frank Black, but I have no idea who he is or what sort of music he creates or has created in the past!

[Oldrottenhead]

he is the main songwriter in the pixies, but equally famed for his solo work and work with the catholics. he is very prolific and from what i know of him, he cant sit at peace for a minute, i think he gigs in some form almost daily.

[Farrell Jackson]

Since my bassfest submission (Fightin' The Fight) is fresh in my head and I did it in one setting, here's how it developed:

First I knew that I was going to use three different basses so I needed three distinct bass parts which I kept in mind as I constructed this song. I started with my Jazz bass and found a funky jazz sort of sound and opening riff using the Behringer Bass V-amp modeler. Then I worked out the second chords for the verse, keeping in mind that I would need another bass part to compliment it. Next I came up with the chorus pattern. Now that I had the two sections in my head I started humming and searching for a melody which came to me quickly. This took about 1 1/2 hours.

I took a break at this point and went to the PC to write some lyric. I got the lyric subject and started writing whatever came out. When I had enough words I began finding rhymes and ordering them into verses and choruses. At this point I had the song structure of an intro, two verses/chorus, a verse/chorus, instrumental break, verse/chorus, and outro. This took another hour.

Back in the studio I worked out what the base instrumental break pattern would be and how it would fit with the other parts. I didn't waste time on what the solo would be at this time. I just knew something played on a bass would go there. Now it was time to practice the main bass part (Jazz Bass) to a basic but suitable drum pattern and record it following my pre-set lyric structure. I then worked out a second complimentary bass part (VOX Violin bass) using a different amp model and tone so it would stand apart from the main bass. I played along with the recorded main bass until it felt good enough and recorded it. Next I fired up my EBO bass, chose another amp model that was brighter so it would stand out from the two other bass instruments and because I knew it was going to be used for the solo. I placed a third harmony pattern on the intro and the outro with the EBO bass. Now it as time to figure out a solo using the EBO. I played back what I had recorded thus far and the wah wah idea struck me as something that would easily stand apart with clarity from the other basses. This is the only part that I winged. I just jammed away and got the keeper on the third take. This all took about two hours.

Next it was vocal time. Since I already had the melodies and timing in my head when I was writing the lyric, the phrasings were straight forward so I got the lead vocal in one take. I then added the high and low harmonies on selected lines. Including setting up/adjusting the vocal mic, preamp, and compressor, this took about an hour.

I then took a break for some liquid refreshment which is an intrical of the process and began mixing the song. I placed the main bass left, the second  complimentary bass right, and the solo bass center. It drops out when the vocals enter so as not to crowd them. I played a long outro with three part bass harmonies so I could fade it out. The mix took a half hour.

That's it, about 6 hours start to finish. This is very quick for me because I can spend days, weeks, or months on one song. Whew....that was a long narration!  Good thing I put it down today because it might be gone tomorrow, lol.

Farrell

 

[AndyR]

an example od one of the frank black recordings i was talking about, personally i don't think it limits what he can do.

What I meant by "limit" was "limiting what can be done sonically to 'fix' any stuff that could be improved in the mix" if it's all live in the room and then mixed (live) to stereo - you have to take what you get. Also, the engineer is definitely one of the band in this situation - all of the band and the engineer (who possibly has a harder job to do) all have to get it right at once. Any one person fluffs a move, and the otherwise "perfect" performances from everyone else have to be scrapped and they have to go again.

In this case, I'd have wanted to be able to try to get a bit more definition and punch from the bottom end (kick drum and bass guitar) when the drums start off - doesn't sound so immediate and grounded as the vocals and other instruments do. If they'd recorded live to multiple tracks, you might be able to do something about that without everyone playing it again, but live to stereo, no chance.

However, the live vibe of the band performing together probably outweighs that. And, although it means they can't "improve" the play-back of the kick/bass (and I'm almost convinced that's one of the things they'd have been considering when deciding whether this take was the one), going straight to stereo does mean they can't be tempted to "fix" other stuff that ain't broken!!

It's an example of imposing a limit to work to - in some places the limit will go against you, you just have to accept that, but hopefully the limit will remove a bunch of other possibilities that you'd be tempted to mess it up with!

[Oldrottenhead]

ah limits, mr eno has lots to say about that. http://blog.andreaskoller.com/2013/05/brian-eno-on-the-importance-of-limits/

[Ferryman]

Interesting thread. I have two issues:

- A strong tendency to OCD
- A lack of ability which means everything I do has to be planned in advance because I am not good enough to improvise on the fly. I could address that with practice but I just don't have the time to get my playing skills to a higher plane. So pretty much every note of every part has to be worked out in advance.

So I am firmly in the "plan it in advance" camp, and I even have the production and mix mapped out in my mind.... The issue I have is translating what is in my mind into reality, a bit like Andy I realise that is why being in a band was frustrating for me (at times). That's partly what has kept me off here, I have plenty of ideas but know I don't have the time to get them done the way I would like so just haven't bothered.

I am also the total opposite of Geir and Frank Black in that once I have done something I want to go back and improve it, pretty much everything I have posted on here I would re-do given the time.     

[AndyR]

ah limits, mr eno has lots to say about that. http://blog.andreaskoller.com/2013/05/brian-eno-on-the-importance-of-limits/

Yep, "ah limits" indeed . I started to appreciate they could be good for you creatively when I switched to the MBR from a DAW.

Because it was a new toy, it was fun anyway. Because it was so much simpler it was fun...

And then I made recordings with it that were STREETS ahead of what I'd done in a DAW. After a bit I realised it was because I didn't have all the options I'd had in the DAW.

Having found out how to do the "Andrew Russe Big Band, Choir and Orchestra" sound with it, or enough to get me interested. I soon found that the MBR was imposing limits (well, overheads really, extra time needed) on my workflow. When I checked out the BR1600 online, I found it would let me do some of the things I'd been doing on the MBR, but something like 10 times faster (at the time it was 8 simultaneous mono channels, plus the stereos, PLUS, and this was huge, dedicated Compressors and 3-band EQ on every playback track).

So I got the BR1600 to remove those limitations (and the no editing of drum patterns on the MBR), but to KEEP the following ones - can't be arsed to edit sound files on the thing, no automation (I think it has something which could be used like automation, but I decided not to bother checking it out - instead I create sub-mix bounces, the moves are automated in those, but only in as much detail as I can move a knob or a fader in realtime. And then I mix those sub-mixes together, much like I did on the MBR), er, what else, not even tempted to go near MIDI - any keyboard parts are played real-time on my stuff.

Some people might think I'm doing stuff with one hand tied behind my back, especially some of the stuff that I attempt. But I feel like I do better work like that - I'm almost convinced that the ability to edit sound files and the ability to put track envelopes on (to automate faders, EQ changes, effects sends, panning, etc) - and my use of them - is what was making my DAW recordings less than I wanted.

I'm now feeling limited by the BR1600 - drums mainly. I always knew this would come, I'm surprised it's taken this long. The drum track plays back as a stereo mix - you can't vary the balance between snare and kick, for example. You can't EQ them separately. You can't mute a drum - you have to delete it out of the pattern(s). So, if I want a multi-track drum part, I'd have to go through hours of duplicating patterns and drum arrangements. I know from experience that the improvement in drum sound, while there, will NOT be worth those extra hours.

So, from a DAW, I am missing the ability to easily create my own drum mix (also missing the piano-roll editing of drums now).

I am actually considering going back to a DAW. But on the limitations side, it scares me a bit. I know I'm going to have to set my own limitations, or I'm going to end up right back where I started!!

I am also the total opposite of Geir and Frank Black in that once I have done something I want to go back and improve it, pretty much everything I have posted on here I would re-do given the time.   

Yep, that's what I've got.

I've managed to find a happy place working to the BR limitations, though. I read somewhere else recently "Finished is better than perfect", and that encapsulates what I do and how I judge it almost, er, perfectly... At some point, I decide, it's done, I can't do better now. I will be able to one day, and I might come back, but until then, THIS is what I wanted you to hear.

In some cases I have songs posted that now, a year or two on, I could create AMAZINGLY better versions. I'll never have time for that, what with all the new stuff sat in corners here...

In other cases, I have songs with small issues that I knew about at the time, that I decided not to fix at the time, and now could be fixed really easily with minor mixing tweaks, nothing else...  I decided some time ago not to go back and make these minor fixes... for a rather silly reason really, but it's working for me - it's a personal reminder of "look wot you did wrong that time!! Everyone can hear it!!!! Don't do it wrong like that this time (idiot!)"