Bringing up your vocals in a mix (short tutorial)

[AndyR]

The BR-1600 has a built-in de-esser too. See page 96 of the BR-1600 manual (revision 10 or 'A').

Yep It's one of the first things I spotted when I got the BR1600, and I thought "hoorah!". But I'd just conquered the mic technique a few months before that - and I haven't ever recorded a vocal on the 1600 that's really needed it. (Who knows? One day I might ) (Actually, even funnier - it's just crossed my mind that the default vocal patches I use during tracking, mainly for incoming compression and expansion, might actually have the de-esser included and switched on!! I'll have to checked when I get home )

Ok, now my question. Does anyone know how to keep doubled vocals from sounding "phasey" - Obviously each track will not be identicle to each other, that's why you do it in the first place. But it's tough to get the panning and levels right to remove pitch phasing. I have found that EQ reduction in the under <1K helps a lot. I don't want to throw in the towel, because I like the way it sounds 85% of time. I just want the other 15%

Now, this I don't know the answer to... I suspect it might be why I don't often go for doubling lead vocals (I double, triple, quadruple, more, more(!) backing vocals).

I'm also wondering whether slight phasing between the two is meant to be one of the attractions? (Not if it detracts from the thing itself, though ).

My gut feeling is that EQ reduction is the secret - I understand that boosting EQ tends to introduce "phasing issues". Maybe "complimentary EQ" (take a little off one and put it on the other, identical frequency, Q, and amount) is the answer? That will make the two vocals slightly different, but maybe that's the answer....

And also, this is more of a query rather than an idea of what to look for (but it might be that too!), when people double-track the lead, how do they pan them? At the moment I'd be aiming for as close together near the centre as possible, but with just enough separation so that they, er, separate ever-so-slightly. I've found that with bvox pairs, panning them hard left and right sounds @rse unless I start adding more pairs to them - I personally feel like one voice panned hard left/right sounds terribly exposed and thin, even if it's twin is panned the other way. Sometimes that's what I want, but not very often...

[Oldrottenhead]

when people double-track the lead, how do they pan them?

a thing i often do,  something bowie used to do a lot round about hunky dory and early ziggy period. was to doubletrack the lead vox but sing them an octave apart and then pan each vocal full left an right.

he uses this technique quite a lot on space oddity to good effect


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYMCLz5PQVw

[launched]

And also, this is more of a query rather than an idea of what to look for (but it might be that too!), when people double-track the lead, how do they pan them? At the moment I'd be aiming for as close together near the centre as possible, but with just enough separation so that they, er, separate ever-so-slightly. I've found that with bvox pairs, panning them hard left and right sounds @rse unless I start adding more pairs to them - I personally feel like one voice panned hard left/right sounds terribly exposed and thin, even if it's twin is panned the other way. Sometimes that's what I want, but not very often...

Yes, the whole idea was to keep them on top of each other, but a 5-15% pan seems to sound better and a wide pan just doesn't work well, maybe because it conflicts with guitar parts and other things. I've never panned mored than 50% with any vocal at all, it just loses power which is what I need in the first place because my vocals are weak.

I've tried your 3k reduction tip for bg vox and that worked very well, Andy - I also removed anything below 70-80hz as well. Haven't tried much for lead vox except a 3-5db reduction from the midrange down.

Jim, I've tried and use all the time octave matching. But I tend to keep them together at all panning levels if panned at all. Maybe I'll try keeping them separate...

[phantasm777]

for drums i have the snare and hi hats slightly of center to left. thats how they are positioned with the kit anyways. but is putting the bass drum and bass guitar in center confliting or a good blending? i put both in the center with vocals, sometimes vocals might be -5 or so, to left or right, slightly off center depending on the song.

[na_th_an]

Well, the snare might be off-center on a real kit, but depending on your song, it may sound off. I mean, if the snare is providing the groove, it might need the extra "importance boost" that centering it in the mix provides. But the rule is that there is no rules

About the bass drumm and the bass guitar sharing the center - well, they shouldn't interfere too much. If you are recording rock, pop, or folk music, the bass guitar should have its lower end cut to give the bass drum space. I mean, cut everything under 40Hz as much as you can in the bass guitar track.

In dance music, the bass tends to be more populated. In such kind of music, you usually use sidechain compression, in which the kick compresses dynamicly the bass track - which creates some kind of "pumping". My band don't do dance music, but sometimes we arrange songs in a pretty much electronic way. For example, this song uses sidechain compression in the bass track (which was generated playing live a Nintendo DS with Korg software). Note how the kick "mutes" the bass track somewhat:

[SteveB]

Excellent thread - a MUST to re-read etc - great contributions All.

[Rata-tat-tat]

I personally like to double track lead vox... mostly because I feel my vocals are pretty bad. I usually need a little something extra to make them sound more interesting. I usually don't do much else to them except the eq'ing as mention'd by Nathan... Great Thread BTW buddy.

Can someone explain what pitch phasing is??? I'm guessing it's a warbbling noise you hear when two frequencies clash within a vocal track.

[launched]

Can someone explain what pitch phasing is??? I'm guessing it's a warbbling noise you hear when two frequencies clash within a vocal track.

I like to double vocals because each track has a slightly different identity, and when panned a certain way it sounds good to me. The reason why I started doing it was because my vocals always sounded thin, but I've since found out that compression and eq will accomplish the same thing, only you don't get any cool stereo effects. I still can't produce single tracked vocals very well but I'm working on it and would like to do it that way too, because it's difficult to reduce phasing problems if my pitch varies too much.

I found some form of a written definition of the issue, obtained from this article :

"Two sounds with a small difference in frequency, say two piano strings of the same pitch, may be perceived as a single sound, but as the waves evolve, they move slightly in and out of phase with each other. The resulting constructive and destructive interference produce a pulsation of amplitude. This pulsation is known as beating. The rate or pulsation or beat frequency is the difference in frequencies. A string tuned to 440 Hz and one tuned to 441Hz will produce a pulsation once per second."

So I guess the proper term is "beating". But I don't like to say "beating", so I'll stick with pitch phasing

[phantasm777]

been dbling tracks for quite a while. i notice sometimes i have vox all the way up and it is still a bit quiet. i copy the vox and add the exact copy as another track and both at the same vol. it is louder. i sometimes do this for drums making one stero tack a bit trebly and one a bit bassey. it adds depth. sometimes i dble up on bass when i think it is not loud or bassey enough.
on vox i might use one stereo track plain and the other have the reverb or whatever effect. on some songs i have had the 2 seperate vox tracks have 2 seperate effects on it. it is a good way yo add some volume without distorting, provioded you watch your vol. levels.

[Glenn Mitchell]

One tip I read about, (after cutting the lows out of pretty much all mid range trax), is to bring up the most important trax first. EG vocals and the main sense of rhythm usually.
Then start bringing the rest up in order of importance and pan and balance as needed.
As you bring up a track do not listen to it, but to the other trax. (to prevent over hearing it)
Only once the mix is more or less balanced, do you start with FX and only if they don't sit right or if you feel you have to tweak the faders.(compression).
The main thing to watch for during the process is frequencies that are similar because they will blend instead of standing out. (Pan, EQ)
I've often lost a vocal in a mix and found the best way to get it back is to TAKE OFF the FX because every FX pushes the track back into the mix.
IOW the best way to clarify the vox is to pull all the other trax back and then up the master.