A serious philosophical post on Prog and self-awareness - and some great music

[AndyR]

^I've halfheartedly worked on that solo on and off for quite a while but never to completion, however it has greatly increased my musicianship along the way. It is solely the reason I wanted to learn lead guitar in the first place.

/derail complete

Do you work on it by playing along to the original? If so, don't, not anymore. Record ten minutes of backing track with no solo, then try and wing it - it's a lot easier (Helps having an audience in front of you so that you can make the right shapes - air guitar, except you're the one with a guitar!)

[Bluesberry]

(still haven't investigated Yes, ELP, etc yet though!).

oh man Andy are you in for a treat.......Yes........if you like guys who can really play their instruments.........oh man.......and write really interesting and thought-provoking songs..........oh man...........stick with the first 5 albums though (well skip that 2nd one), the ones with Bill Bruford on drums.......I would say start with #3, The Yes Album", then go forward into "Fragile", back two steps into "Yes" and finally end your journey of discovery with "Close To The Edge"...........that is some of the finest Prog-rock ever made (in my humble opinion), there is a very good reason they were considered the top prog band in their day (by many folks, not all, ta great many).  The are also credited with killing Prog with one album, the ferocious "Tales of Topographic Oceans", a album so self important and bloated it caused Bill Bruford to bail just before starting the album and Rick Wakeman to leave shortly after it came out and the dreaded tour that Chip is alluding to.  But, just forget all that, listen to album #1,3,4,5 and see what you think, starting with #2, The Yes Album.  Thats my advice.  I am totally smitten with those 4 albums at the moment, can't get enough.

[Oldrottenhead]

i'm afraid i meant a crap song with a crap solo lol.

i am being a bit facetious there tho, i loved freebird when it first came out, but it got played to death and before long i found it very annoying, especially the ending, especially the ending especially the ending.

re what andy said about sting, that made me think, there are a whole lot of other factors that can come into play when personal opinions are made.

i agree on sting, like bono too, they are great musicians but i wish they would just shut up. but for me the hardest band to like are coldplay, they may be very good i dont know, i just cant get by how annoying and self satisfied that chris martin comes across as.

and all the big hair bands of the 80's are a no go zone for me. we are now getting into a nature nurture debate here lol. i fall down on the nurture side. as a kid i hated hank williams my dad played him to death, my dad is long gone and now i love hank williams, maybe if he played metallica i'd have liked them too.

[Ferryman]

I think I get it, or more importantly I understand myself a little better. I typically wear plain clothes, or what graphics/print associates with nothing. I don't have a PRS shirt because I own a PRS guitar. I don't have any shirts that say "This fat bastard was once a United States Marine".

In a nutshell I defy any means of classification. I play music, but I dislike referring to myself as a musician.  I'm an IS manager, yet when asked what I do for a living, I reply "I work for a water company".

naturally it's safe to say that I won't identify with any particular genre, because I'm not a fan of classification, which leads to definition, and ultimately stereotyping. I think that makes me Punk.....

Tony, I think if you spent much of your youth in the forces you will have missed out on the "youth tribe" thing. From age 3 to 13 all I wanted to do was be a pilot in the RAF, but by 13 I had discovered music and that went out the window - I wanted long hair and a guitar! Hence you don't sufffer from those really ingrained genre prejudices that I do (or did) - as I say, I lived the whole thing, clothes, clubs, image, people etc etc. Mind you, as an IS manager you ought to like prog!

Good stuff. I was in my teens in the early 70's, I have seen most of the prog rockers of the day, including, Gentle Giant,Yes, Genesis, Can, Amon Duul 11, Henry Cow, King Crimson, Hawkwind ( whom I still refer as space rock) Kraftwerk, Faust and countless others, I loved every moment of it. Led Zep got thrown in the trash bin along with Sabbath.   We had a wail of a time with the progg-ers, then one day after listening and watching Yes perform the dreaded T*p*g****ic Oce*ns the bubble burst. Back came the Led Zep and Sabbath and this time out went the prog ( never to return). I still listen to Led Zep who seem as fresh today as when I first heard them, I would not put them down as prog but as a full blown rock and roll band.

Chip, are you my doppelganger? That's my list of bands, just add Gong and you have the full mix! I was at the Fairfield halls in Croydon for the Amon Duul gig when they recorded some of "Live in London"! But I also had the same issue with prog. Genesis were at their peak with Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot then Lamb Lies Down was a bit iffy, then after Gabriel left they just became another twiddly symphonic prog band. And agree with you over Yes - Yes Album, Close to the Edge great, Tales.....oh dear.  

Country = hanging offence in my punk days. But I have even listened country and enjoyed it, thanks to this community. Agree we are all a bit more open minded now, and that's a good thing.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Tony W]

^I've halfheartedly worked on that solo on and off for quite a while but never to completion, however it has greatly increased my musicianship along the way. It is solely the reason I wanted to learn lead guitar in the first place.

/derail complete

Do you work on it by playing along to the original? If so, don't, not anymore. Record ten minutes of backing track with no solo, then try and wing it - it's a lot easier (Helps having an audience in front of you so that you can make the right shapes - air guitar, except you're the one with a guitar!)

I have done a steady mix of both. Prior to selling my 1600 I have a full work up of the song ready to go' all 8 plus minutes of rhythm recored. It certainly won't take as much effort to redo the song now. I suppose I learn the solo close to the original but not exact and try to follow the changes.

[Ferryman]

But, it's always been about the "song" for me. This could be the standard 3-4 minute immediate stuff (and some punk songs were brilliant, I can recall liking Teenage Kicks, Ever Fallen In Love, Babylons Burning, and others I've forgotten, when they came out), it could be the longer masterpieces (Bohemian Rhapsody, anyone? ), and it could also be the extended stuff on albums - Suppers Ready, Thick As A Brick.

Funnily enough, it "doesn't matter" to me whether there are "solos" on there or not. I likes me a good instrumental, and I do especially like well played guitar stuff, but it's still usually about the music and the emotions it causes in me. If it's technically advanced as well, brilliant. If it's technically advanced musicianship and no emotion, then I can appreciate it but it just doesn't ring my bell.

I guess I'm very similar Andy, it's the "song" and the emotion behind it that matters most to me. Brilliant musicianship can bring a song alive but it can also kill it because you know the band has run out of ideas so are just jamming around. That's where prog and heavy rock was in the UK the mid 70s for me. I remember seeing Van der Graaf Generator in 1976, a band that I loved in their heyday for quirky and challenging music, and they were just dull as ditchwater. The whole audience sat down for the entire gig, there were too many long solos and even their classics sounded tired. The whole thing was just boring. I then saw The Damned in Feb 77 and I was completely gobsmacked. Quickfire songs, incredible excitement and energy, and despite what everyone claims, they were pretty reasonable musicians. Rat Scabies could play mean tribal drums and Brian James was (and still is in my view) a great guitarist in the tradition of Johnny Thunders. Captain Sensible became an excellent guitarist as well when he took over from Brian James.

But it's also the case that the gettiung back to basics formula was taken too far by many second tier bandwagon jumpers that really were pretty rubbish. It's a question of balance.

BTW, approach ELP with care. Classic case of three brilliantly skilled musicians in one band - too many egos, too much skill! Sometimes it's amazing, too much of the time it's way less than amazing. Emerson also had a great habit of "borrowing" from classical composers. But undeniably brilliant musicians that have created some magic. I particularly like Karn Evil 9 from Brain Salad Surgery.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Oldrottenhead]

i saw van der graaf generator on their reunion tour and they where fabulous, in fact vital, (nigel will get the intended pun) they obviously where having a lot of fun and where enjoying themselves again. full of passion and youth and all getting there free bus passes in the not so distant. one of the best gigs ive ever attended and ive been to lots.

[SteveB]

Freebird happens to be one of my all time favorite pieces of music...

Rummaging through my Total Guitar mags the other day, I located this. May be of interest to some.   

[Ferryman]

Rummaging through my Total Guitar mags the other day, I located this. May be of interest to some.    

Interesting! I don't feel so bad about having to plan my guitar solos up front now.....

[Blooby]

Where does the donning of capes fit in with this discussion?

Blooby