A serious philosophical post on Prog and self-awareness - and some great music

[Ferryman]

The thread on favourite prog songs prompted a very interesting discussion. There were several along the lines of Sandy's below:

To me, being deemed Prog Rock carries a stigma. Makes you sound like a dinosaur from the 70's trying to outdo your peer group of musicians.

He's actually quite right. Although I grew up on psychedelic and prog music in the late 60s and 70s and absolutely loved it all, in 1977 I got into punk and had exactly that attitude. Prog and heavy rock bands were dinosaurs, self important and pompous, delivering meaningless twaddle with 8 hour drum solos. Time to sweep them all away and get some excitement back into music.

For the next 30 years, I held strongly to that attitude. I sneered at anything that wasn't punk/new wave/indie/alternative. No guitar solos allowed. But over the years I have mellowed and have really got back into prog. Partly it's being on here, because I have opened my ears and listened to (and enjoyed) a lot of musical styles that previously I would have looked down my nose at. I've even had a go at playing some blues, something I have never done in 40 years of playing guitar.

But there's something deeper to it than that, and I realise it's actually quite deeply to do with my cultural heritage and upbringing. As I was getting into music from about 67 onwards, my earliest exposure was to psychedelia - Sgt Pepper, early Floyd, Traffic etc etc. I then got into Krautrock and prog in a big way in the early 70s. I threw all that away when I got into punk but now I'm drifting back. I am starting to understand why now. I saw a great programme on the history of Krautrock, and there was an interview with Renate Knaup of Amon Duul II which gave me great insight. Like so many young people in Germany in the 60s and 70s, they wanted to rebel against the ex-Nazis that ran the country (they had all been given jobs by the occupiers to create a stable buffer against the Soviets), and their music was part of that rebellion. But she said that American rock n roll and blues just didn't speak to them, it wasn't part of their experience, instead they were influenced by the European tradition and more modern composers like Stravinsky and Stockhausen. So their music wasn't built around the 12 bar but instead had a more "prog" approach .

I've realised that's why i have a deep liking for prog, even after all those years of punk. I'm a middle class white boy from the suburbs that's had a pretty easy life. I can't sing about the hard side of life like Springsteen, I have no need to sing the blues. That "European" tradition is buried in me as well. Also, when I write music, it's about things I imagine, not about my real world experiences (because they would be really dull!). I'm a dreamer, I read a lot of fiction and science fiction, I get inspired by books and imagined worlds. So all of that means the whole "prog" thing is my DNA - songs that have weird structures about dystopian futures. Which is why after all these years I'm gravitating back to it.

But I have to agree with the prog naysayers as well. So much of prog is a joke, too many fairies and pixies and silly outfits - just like Stonehenge by Spinal Tap. However, there is good news - there are so many "new" prog bands that have interpreted the old medium in a new way. They have the attitude and style of punk coupled with the musical DNA of European psychedlia/krautrock/prog. That's what I am personally really enjoying at present. Here's a couple of examples:

The Pineapple Thief (proof that proggers do sometimes get the girl btw)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjJxSng0N_4

Amplifier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc5HRVHoaw0

I guess these bands are more what you might call "post rock" than pure prog, but for me they combine the best of prog with the best of new wave and heavy rock. I guess they are following in the wake of bands like Tool, which is no bad thing.

So I have looked into my soul and seen it is full of space rock and weird song structures......

Cheers,

Nigel

   

[Bluesberry]

Bloody well said Nigel.  I am going through something along these lines too, I was huge into prog in Highschool, and then punk kind of happened and swept it all away, and then Tom Petty and Springsteen and all that Americana rock, and then I kind of drifted out of heavy music listening, but getting back into music in a big way about 5 years ago, fueled by my getting an Ipod and discovering what was available for download from I-tunes and other places, I have found my way back to the stuff I used to adore in my teens, and re-discovering stuff.  And I am just hearing it for what it is, music, no labels, or genres, I am just listening to the music and if I like it I keep listening, and if it dosesn't turn my crank I move on.....in this way I got back into early Yes (the Bruford era), early Genesis (gabriel era), Jethro Tull (I listen to Thick as a Brick at least once a month lately), Wishbone Ash (damn what a fine band they were), Captain Beyond...............  I just listen and marvel at how good the music was that those young men were creating, and Kate Bush of course (can't forget the prog ladies), and those early Peter Gabriel solo albums.........its been a revelation, just to listen, forget about any preconceived notions of historical place, or genre, or what is fashionable, just listen to what notes they played, what drum patterns, what energy they created with the sounds, the masterpieces of sound they created.  It is like listening to brand new music to me, and it really fires me up.  

As for new prog, i have two bands that I really like, The Decemberists from Oregon, USA (The Hazards of Love - a double CD prog rock masterpiece, bloody brilliant), and a band from Vancouver called Black Mountain, hard rocking and gloriously proggy (the keyboard player is brilliant, just the right touch on all his synth and organ parts, no digital instruments, just old school analog, beautiful).

At the end of the day, its just music, does it speak to you or not, it is not about genres at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpltQ5S4xxc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VJiDfQ5pUI

[Ferryman]

Thanks for those band posts Dave. I like them both but the Decembrists really get my vote, right up my street. Love the big sound there!

Wishbone Ash - big fave. Argus is one of my all time fave albums. Saw them live many times. Must go, have to work on the next prog epic!

Cheers,

Nigel

[Oldrottenhead]

seems  like we followed similar paths nigel, it was the 73 hour drum solo that put me off in the end,

for me now it's not the genre, it's all about the song. a great guitar solo can never make a crap song great and a crap guitar solo can never make a great song crap. its either a great song or a crap song. but how great and who crap is all a matter of personal opinion.

then you have oxymorons like freebird.

[Tony W]

I'll take the uneducated non-intellect approach here.

Music wasn't an important factor in my life until 3 years ago. I was born in 72, and the music I enjoy the most was no longer being created by the early 80's. Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd, They are all on my ipod today. I'm just as moved by Stairway to Heaven as I was in third grade. I can't help but feel like the life was sucked out of music in the 80's.

Shamefully I'll admit, that I still don't listen to a song for its lyrics. I don't remember titles, I don't remember bands, but I damn sure remember great instrumentals, including a 10 minute drum solo if I like it. I guess, I wish lyrics moved me like they do most people, but alas I like instruments.

Freebird happens to be one of my all time favorite pieces of music. I'm racking my brain trying to think of the lyrics, and I can't think of a single line right now, and I've heard the song no less than 1000 times.

In the end, there are only 2 musical classifications I use. Stuff I like and stuff I don't. I dig a lot of grunge, hell, I even like some rap. There are country songs that I really enjoy as well.

On a separate note, am I an oddity that I have no use for genre? I'm open to listening to anything, filtering what pleases me from what doesn't as I go.

[Ferryman]

I'll take the uneducated non-intellect approach here.

That's one of the criticisms of prog - it tends to be favoured by sixth form boys (last couple of years in high school) that read poetry. It's a bit too serious at times. But I do tend to over-analyze things myself....

Freebird happens to be one of my all time favorite pieces of music. I'm racking my brain trying to think of the lyrics, and I can't think of a single line right now, and I've heard the song no less than 1000 times.

If I leave here tomorrow, would you still remember me?
(the rest of the words are a bit vague but I can remember most of them, but I have been a vocalist!)

On a separate note, am I an oddity that I have no use for genre? I'm open to listening to anything, filtering what pleases me from what doesn't as I go.

Yes and no. You may be different in that you have got into music in the last few years, and for most people, the music they "love" is the music of their formative years, ie when they were late teens/early 20s, going to gigs and picking up girls/boys/whatever. I think the soundtrack to that period becomes the genre you love. Kids of that age tend to be tribe/fashion conscious (eg mods vs rockers), so you can become highly associated with a genre and stick with that. As you grow older, you mellow and become more open minded, seems like you went straight there!

Since age 11, all I wanted to do was to play in a band. From age 13 to about 28, music was the most important thing in my life, so I associated very closely with specific genres, prog fisrt then punk/new wave. And it wasn't just music, it was the whole "scene" - clubs, clothes, art, people etc etc. Now that sort of thing is less important to me, I have become more open minded. But I've also realised why I have that deep down affinity for prog style music.

But u;timately as you say, there are two types of music, that you like and that you don't. Can only agree with that.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Tony W]

Kids of that age tend to be tribe/fashion conscious (eg mods vs rockers), so you can become highly associated with a genre and stick with that.

I think I get it, or more importantly I understand myself a little better. I typically wear plain clothes, or what graphics/print associates with nothing. I don't have a PRS shirt because I own a PRS guitar. I don't have any shirts that say "This fat bastard was once a United States Marine".

In a nutshell I defy any means of classification. I play music, but I dislike referring to myself as a musician.  I'm an IS manager, yet when asked what I do for a living, I reply "I work for a water company".

naturally it's safe to say that I won't identify with any particular genre, because I'm not a fan of classification, which leads to definition, and ultimately stereotyping. I think that makes me Punk.....

[chip]

Good stuff. I was in my teens in the early 70's, I have seen most of the prog rockers of the day, including, Gentle Giant,Yes, Genesis, Can, Amon Duul 11, Henry Cow, King Crimson, Hawkwind ( whom I still refer as space rock) Kraftwerk, Faust and countless others, I loved every moment of it. Led Zep got thrown in the trash bin along with Sabbath.   We had a wail of a time with the progg-ers, then one day after listening and watching Yes perform the dreaded T*p*g****ic Oce*ns the bubble burst. Back came the Led Zep and Sabbath and this time out went the prog ( never to return). I still listen to Led Zep who seem as fresh today as when I first heard them, I would not put them down as prog but as a full blown rock and roll band.

Coming back into playing instead of listening ( I started at 13 till 30 guitar then ran a company till 2 years ago) I started listening to country and now enjoy playing it, which heaven forbid, the mention of country in the prog days was a hanging offence. Our band can get a little space rocky until I rain them in but we now play reggae ( Clash style), country, blues, accoustic, heck we even play ' The lost highway by Hank' something we would not do as proggers.
Do I miss the prog? no not the music but I do miss the scene, but hey!!!!! you have to grow up sometime. I feel loads better playing now than I ever did when I was a teenage drug fiend.... Good thread this, infact this whole community is great... Cheers.

[AndyR]

Yeah, I'm less concerned by genres as I get older. I either like the music or I don't. And some that I don't, I can sense there's something in it, so I might take the time to get into it (it's a bit like some foods - does anyone else who likes say avocado, asparagus, courgette, etc, remember when you first tried them?)

I wasn't into the proggy stuff in the late 70s when I was starting out. But I was exactly the sort of person who was going to like it when I finally looked into it... and I likes me Jethro Tull and Genesis a lot (still haven't investigated Yes, ELP, etc yet though!).

However, even though I'm the right age, I HATED punk in general, and what I saw as its destructive attitude towards musicianship - I just did not like the way its proponents belittled what they saw as dinosaurs and old farts, and the "solo"

My roots were in 50s and 60s pop, and the country music from the 60s and 70s that my Dad leaned towards. I also appreciated 70s pop, but I wasn't so aware of it as the 60s stuff. When I started playing and writing I was thinking 60s Bee Gees, The Hollies, The Beatles, Cliff Richard, etc. People around me got me into pop-rock, some of which was "old news" (3-4 years) by then, eg Slade, and some of it was peaking, eg ELO.

And then I heard and bought Andrew Lloyd Webber's Variations (reminds me, I really ought to get a CD of it, no idea where my old cassette is, or what to play it on). Gary Moore's contributions on that got me ready for rock music. I went through Rainbow and various things, AC/DC's original "pop" approach to rock was very important to me, I had If You Want Blood in my hands before Bonn Scott died. And then someone, concerned that I was a Ritchie Blackmore fan, finally "converted" me to Led Zeppelin. This was 79/80. In hindsight, Led Zeppelin were the doorway to everything for me, because they tried everything. Some of it not so well, but they showed me that you can play whatever you want, the way you want. They also introduced me to "the blues" which meant I went looking for all sorts of stuff and found it.

But, it's always been about the "song" for me. This could be the standard 3-4 minute immediate stuff (and some punk songs were brilliant, I can recall liking Teenage Kicks, Ever Fallen In Love, Babylons Burning, and others I've forgotten, when they came out), it could be the longer masterpieces (Bohemian Rhapsody, anyone? ), and it could also be the extended stuff on albums - Suppers Ready, Thick As A Brick.

Funnily enough, it "doesn't matter" to me whether there are "solos" on there or not. I likes me a good instrumental, and I do especially like well played guitar stuff, but it's still usually about the music and the emotions it causes in me. If it's technically advanced as well, brilliant. If it's technically advanced musicianship and no emotion, then I can appreciate it but it just doesn't ring my bell. For example, I absolutely love Ritchie Blackmore's solo in the live version of Highway Star on Made In Japan - I have from the moment I first noticed it. It's a stunning piece of self-expression and it really raises that particular performance even higher than the rest of the band had taken it. The punks I knew that were belittling solos were a no-no to me though (and this very solo is one that they thought was a prime example of what they were on about). I disliked their attitude that all solos were bad, whether it was good soloing or boring, and their taking this stance tended to put me off their genre rather than anyone else's!

I've since got into some of the punk stuff that I ignored, but not all by any means (eg, I like the Clash's hits, but find them un-listenable otherwise).

I guess this "solo" and "dinosaur" stance that my contempories who were into the "new music" took had a big influence on me then and even now! . I still don't like Sting because of his professed attitude towards dinosaurs, especially because he's one himself and has been for a good 20 years!! I loved the Police's hits though - superb pop music. And he's a good musician and songwriter - just don't like the non-singing noises that come out his mouth.

Music's music. There is no good and bad, just the stuff you like and the stuff you've yet to learn to like. You're under no obligation to learn to like the second lot, but you should be open to the possibility that you might suddenly like it one day!

Btw, I'm not sure Freebird is an oxymoron here orh (it does depend exactly what you mean, though ) - the important "solo" is the slide guitar by Gary Rossington in the intro/etc. That's actually important melody for the arrangement itself (a bit like Fisher's organ part to Whiter Shade Of Pale - it's not part of the song, and Fisher gets no writing royalties for it, but it's the bit we all remember - it's also what causes the "they ripped off Bach" accusations... but it was an "overdub" after the song was written and accepted as a thing to work on). The extended solo at the end the end of Freebird by Allen Collins is actually just a workout. The guitarheads in the audience can go "yeah", although they probably don't concentrate on it all the way through, the important thing is the long rocking groove going on. It's not a self-indulgent solo like some I can name (and adore!), it's just part of the song and having watched and heard several live versions, it's not improvised but carefully choreographed to sustain and raise the excitement. Also, if you have to cover it (), it is rather easy to play something very like it and get just as much reaction for it - it is just a bunch of licks - so it's more like a "rock and roll" ending to a monumental classic, the actual "solo" itself is unimportant (one of the reasons it's so brilliant I guess) - it's more a visual effect plus the wailing/widdly going on over the rocking. Anyone stood at the side frowning, and not "whoopin it up" at the end in a general "boogie-on-down" fashion, is kinda missing the point

[Tony W]

^I've halfheartedly worked on that solo on and off for quite a while but never to completion, however it has greatly increased my musicianship along the way. It is solely the reason I wanted to learn lead guitar in the first place.

/derail complete